Evaluating The Winslow Acquisition
May 21st, 2012
What do Mohammed Massaquoi, Andy Levitre, David Veikune, LeSean McCoy, Phil Loadholt, William Moore, Fili Moala, Paul Kruger, Sebastian Vollmer, Sherrod Martin, William Beatty, Sean Smith, Sen’Derrick Marks, Cody Brown and Richard Quinn have in common?
All were drafted in the second round of the 2009 NFL Draft, and they all could have been taken with the Bucs’ 50th overall pick that was traded to the Browns for Kellen Winslow, who is no longer wanted at One Buc Palace.
So did rockstar general manager Mark Dominik screwup the trade that brought in Winslow?
Hindsight is so easy. A Bucs fan could look at LeSean McCoy’s name on this list and bang his head against the wall repeatedly.
However, the Bucs needed Winslow when they got him and he produced for three years straight and didn’t miss a game. Joe and any sane Bucs fan can make a good case that a reliable target like the Winslow of 2009 and 2010 absolutely was critical to Josh Freeman’s development. That same development Bucs fans are banking on in 2012.
Winslow was the go-to guy for Freeman in those two seasons, when Freeman had a winning record as a starter and emerged as the face of the franchise. Freeman isn’t the player he is today without Winslow’s influence.
But no one will find Joe standing on a rooftop praising Dominik for the Winslow deal. Back in pre-Winslow 2009, Joe pounded the drum repeatedly for the Bucs to trade for Tony Gonzalez for a second around pick, who the Falcons eventually snagged via trade with the Chiefs with that same second-round pick. Gonzalez has been flat out more productive than Winslow and is still going strong for Atlanta.
How will history evaluate the Winslow acquisition — and today’s news of his local demise? That’s to be determined.
But at this point Joe can’t call Winslow’s Tampa Bay history unsuccessful.
May 21st, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Gone after three seasons is by definition unsuccessful. Especially for a rebuilding team who has so loudly touted the “build through the draft” mentality.
And we have all the history necessary.
Its not even a close call, rock star totally botched this.
May 21st, 2012 at 4:49 pm
@Eric
You are wrong. Kellen Winslow was this teams leading receiver his first 2 years with this team and has been nothing but a reliable target for Freeman. He was Freemans safety net when he had no where else to go. He did what he was brought in to do and that was to be a productive part of the team. He was serviceable and thats the most important thing. Now that we have used up what was left of his playing days its now time to move on. simple as that. not happy or sad by this decision. Just indifferent.
May 21st, 2012 at 4:50 pm
I find it very convenient to sit back and judge the decisions of others, when in fact, all the facts are not really available to us.
It is very easy to be negative about this Winslow thing, but not being present in the room when this decision was made, it is difficult for me to draw a conclusion. I have no idea what Winslow may have said to the new coach or any indication how Winslow reacted to the Buccaneers hiring a new coach.
Some have said he publicly wanted another coach and said that. I don’t know, I wasn’t there. I refuse to believe any reporter, even Joe, 100% of the time.
Winslow had a couple of good years. Last year not so much. Maybe if he wanted to stay, he could have compromised some and hung out in Tampa and get to know the new staff. We are seeing something new here and maybe it will work, maybe not, but I am willing to give the new staff support and time.
This is a tough sports town. If all the experts like Eric are so confident of their ability to make the right decisions for NFL teams, I wonder why Eric is trolling around this site instead of making big money. Dude if you know that much, go interview for a a position and see what they have to say. Otherwise, your opinions are just that and nothing more. Give the Bucs a break and see what happens. If you feel after a couple of years the new staff isn’t getting it done, you have my permission to go pee on the coaches leg.
May 21st, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Kirk:
This is not speculation. It was widely reported. Joe — and perhaps millions of other listeners — heard the words come out of Winslow’s own mouth on SiriusXM NFL Radio.
Trust Joe, if any player is misquoted this badly as you suggest K2 may have been, he’d squeal louder than Gus Johnson.
May 21st, 2012 at 4:58 pm
It’s easy to debate both sides on this topic. We’re all going to have to agree to disagree. There is no way to tell how HAVING that 2nd round pick would have snowballed every move the Bucs would have made after that pick and how it would have affected the Bucs entire player and coaching roster to date.
For better or worse, he had a purpose and we are where we are – moving forward.
May 21st, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Hey its a tough business, mistakes are made.
But to call the Winslow trade anything other than a failure is simply rediculous.
They guy is gone after three years. Its a fact. Whatever the reason.
When your rebuilding you dont trade a number two and a five for a guy to play three years.
You dont have to be a guru to see that – its totally obvious.
What were we doing, putting the finishing touches on so we could go 4-12?
C’mon, move on from the mistake yes, refuse to admit it is (borrowing a line from BSPN) delusional.
May 21st, 2012 at 5:13 pm
Lol.
What a terrible mistake that was!! The Bucs entire future depended on that second round pick! Every second round pick always turns out to be a pro bowl player.
I mean, Winslow never even caught 100 passes in a season!!
—–
I think it was time for him to go. However, it’s not like we traded away an entire draft for him and he did have a pretty productive couple years.
Not everything has to be so dramatic you know..
May 21st, 2012 at 5:14 pm
Ok we had a “special purpose” so its fine.
You guys are hilarious.
Its not so hard to say, the man made a mistake. Obviously, like every orher GM he wasnt trying to make a mistake. Hindsight is how every GM is evaluated. Otherwise, no one would ever lose their jobs cause they were “trying”.
But he did. He traded for a guy with a bad knee and an apparent attitude problem who is now off the roster completely.
May 21st, 2012 at 5:26 pm
Eric,
Evaluating one deal alone is what’s being done here. By your logic every deal is a mess if you don’t win playoff games.
May 21st, 2012 at 5:27 pm
Attitude or not, he was one dimensional. He was basically a large wide receiver. We just signed one of those. Let’s get a guy who can block as well as run routes. My only problem with this is that Luke Stocker is not that guy. I hope Dallas Clark lands here.
May 21st, 2012 at 5:32 pm
Yeah, he really was one dimensional. We could not have been a proper run first team with him as our #1 TE.
May 21st, 2012 at 5:34 pm
He was very productive in catches and yards for the 3 seasons he was with us. I hope we can atleast this him for a mid to late round draft pick. Dallas Clark, Luke Stocker, Drake Dunsmore, how would you feel about those being our tight ends this year Joe?
May 21st, 2012 at 5:37 pm
I think this is a terrible move. Not only do we lose a good TE. But now we will get little if anything in return. He is only 28 and even with the “knee issues”, he still has played everygame since becoming a Buc. Who cares if he missed OTAs. He hardly ever practiced and still played everygame. He is a veteran who knows how to play. We have no one good to replace him. And what can 33 year old Dallas Clark do? Hopefully alot since we just gave away 70+ catches! You would have to think something else happened besides just missing the OTAs. This is the first move I’ve disagreed with with our new HC, but it is a huge one. If we were getting Dallas Clark at age 28 I would say hell yea…but we aren’t. You know its bad when Denver said no to him. He was Peyton’s guy and even Manning said no to him. This make no sense at all!
May 21st, 2012 at 5:40 pm
Imagine if our 90 man roster was “kellen Winslows”, OTA’s would be a ghost town.
May 21st, 2012 at 5:41 pm
With a lustful heart Joe can’t call this acquisition a mistake.
17-31 GM’s are rock stars around here, apparently injured 17-31 tight ends traded for “premium” draft picks can’t be labeled as mistakes if they are dominik’s deals.
Winslow caused, not helped, Freeman’s regression or lack of growth as a third year starter.
Free is already better with this problem gone.
May 21st, 2012 at 5:47 pm
Dunmore might be good…but he is just a rookie and a 7th rounder at that. KW2 needed to stay atleast one more year to make sure one of our TEs was good enough to replace him. We have good WRs but we need a TE to take away a Safety and we currently don’t have that unless Dunmore somehow makes great strides and becomes a solid TE early on this season! Luke Stocker is a joke and thats all I will say about him!
May 21st, 2012 at 5:51 pm
@Thomas2.2
You are so messed up in the head! How did he regress Freeman last season?? He had nothing to do with that tradegy of a year!! He was only JF5 safety net at TE since becoming a Buc and now he is gone. You make me sick to my stomach sometimes after reading your trash. Go join the Jags or Phins website!!! You obviously don’t like the Bucs or you wouldn’t bash them everyday with every post!!
I bashed this move because KW2 helps our O out. I hope Dallas Clark still has something left in the tank since he is our new TE.
May 21st, 2012 at 5:52 pm
This happens to basically every team when a new coach takes over, but its conspiracies and failure when it happens to the Bucs ??? WTF
May 21st, 2012 at 5:55 pm
You don’t tug on Superman’s Cape, you don’t spit in the wind, you don’t pull the make off the old Lone Ranger, and you don’t mess around with Schiano”
Good for you Coach Schiano, no more spoiled brats in Tampa, no matter how good!
May 21st, 2012 at 5:56 pm
I just hope Dominick gets sucked out of the organization by next year. I think once Schiano has a handle on the draft he will steam roll him. Then well just a capologist which is a lot easier these days.
May 21st, 2012 at 5:59 pm
Chip Carter @ Fox 13 just reported Clark has signed with the Bucs. He also said the Bucs had worked him out last week.
May 21st, 2012 at 6:05 pm
Schiano doesn’t even want Winslow at OTA’s.
A lot of u guys agree, cause Winslow is an alleged attitude problem or has deficiencies in his game.
But the same people won’t admit it was a mistake to bring on such a player in the first place.
Meaning its peachy to trade for a guy who has a bad attitude, is injured, and has performance issues.
Schiano’s and dominiks opinion about Winslow can’t be reconciled.
What’s so hard about admitting Dominik blew it? Is he the Pope?
May 21st, 2012 at 6:08 pm
Eric:
Once again, Joe stated three years ago he thought swapping a second round pick for Tony Gonzalez was a better deal. Feel free to browse the archives for confirmation.
Three years later, turns out Joe was right.
May 21st, 2012 at 6:09 pm
Be careful Brad, those pointed comments may get the attention of some and get you placed on the anti-propaganda list!
@funkymunky: the only reason Kellen was our only “safety net” (used loosely) at tight end was because rock head overspent on his contract committing way too much for one broke down / dimensional tight end based on the prior shoestring Glazer budget.
Kellen is just awful, the expanded stats rank him about 33rd out of the top tight ends. If you analyze kellen in isolation he has virtually no separation which is why he is prone to PI. He also takes a blocker off the field on running plays which stings.
I think that there is a chance that no one wants him and he can go DJ in Vegas.
May 21st, 2012 at 6:10 pm
Thomas:
Very true.
May 21st, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Eric:
You are correct. All of the players coming in: Barron, Clark, Nicks, wright etc are Schiano players. All of the 17-31 players going out like Kellen, Tanard Geno Taze are Dom/Rah players. This clearly shows what Schiano sees as huge fatal flaw with this roster.
Schefter called it a shocking culture change that is happening at one Buc with Schiano which tells you what is perceived as the ridiculously unprofessional product of the last 3 years – that was celebrated by virtually everyone but you and I until 6 months ago.
What a fraud some of these people are.
Dom was in charge of this 17-31 fraud that is being shockingly changed and Dom is responsible for dumb moves like the kelken trade – yet for some reason there is an agenda to prop Dom up, I don’t get it.
I don’t know why we just can’t be objective on this blog.
May 21st, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Wow, thanks Joe. First time you have agreed with me.
May 21st, 2012 at 6:20 pm
@joe
Absolutely right Mr. Joe.
Which is another reason your reluctance in calling Dom out on the trade is puzzling.
And if he actually caused free to regress how can it not have been an error trading for him?
May 21st, 2012 at 7:39 pm
Must be some other universe where trading for a guy who causes your franchise QB to regress is a potentially positive move……………
May 21st, 2012 at 8:30 pm
I gotta agree with Thomas about Winslow causing, at least in part, Freeman’s regression. It seemed he was pressured into forcing the ball to him.
May 21st, 2012 at 10:18 pm
@Eric
what the hell are you talking about. Your are not saying he made Free regress in 2010 are you infact he made Free a better qb at that point. as far as last year is concerned THE WHOLE TEAM REGRESSED LAST YEAR. you are just an illogical little prick who has no idea what he is talking about but just wants to sound like he knows what he is talking about. get your facts straight before you open you big mouth.
May 21st, 2012 at 10:35 pm
@Andrew,
I was commenting on Joe and Thomas 2.0 coming to agreement that Winslow caused Freeman’s regression in his third year. Its just a few posts above yours.
And, if that is true, it would follow that trading a second and fifth round draft choice for him was a mistake by our GM. (unless u believe that causing regression was a positive thing).
Pretty obvious error, even if some have great reservation about admitting it, like you.
If Rock does well he deserves praise (Nicks and Jackson- great moves). When he fails it also should be pointed out – like the disaster that is the K2 trade.
May 21st, 2012 at 10:54 pm
I don’t think the K2 trade was a disaster like everyone seems to think here. He was productive for us, in fact became our best receiving option for 3 years. I’m not sure how that can be deemed a disaster. That said, since everyone likes to use the word “hindsight” when criticizing GMs, no one would’ve thought K2’s presence would become a detriment to Freeman’s development. Especially not Raheem the Dream. Schiano recognizes this and clearly is opting to rid this team of that culture and move in a different direction. I applaud this move a lot because of the guts it takes to put yourself out there and move on from a “Franchise TE” that does more harm than good when trying to develop a franchise QB.
May 21st, 2012 at 11:20 pm
But Dom was on notice of his bum knee and poor attitude in Cleveland.
Took the risk, got burned.
It happens.
May 22nd, 2012 at 12:07 am
Drafting Bo Jackson and then he doesnt sign is “getting burned.” We did not get burned by trading a #2 for our leading receiver for 2 out of 3 years.
I definitely think Winslow hurt Josh by never practicing with him. Their timing was always off and Winslow was always yelling at Josh as if he was the problem. Maybe if he coulda practiced they would have been more on the same page. Glad he’s gone.