Of Course Bucs Could Switch To 3-4 Defense
January 12th, 2012
Joe laughed the other day when Stephen Holder of the Tampa Bay Times made a case that the Bucs don’t have the personnel to transition to a 3-4 defense.
Really? Joe thinks the Bucs have at least the same number of front-7 pieces in place for a 3-4 as a 4-3. And it seems draft guru and Buccaneers Radio Network host Justin “Commish” Pawlowski is of the same mind.
Pawlowski penned a detailed breakdown here on 620wdae.com. Here’s a snippet:
I chuckle when people say that a 3-4 defense wouldn’t work in Tampa. Is that because the 4-3 defense has worked so well the past 3 years? Give me a break. The Texans had run the 4-3 defense since Gary Kubiak arrived in 2006, but it wasn’t until another terrible defensive performance in the 2010 season when Kubiak and the Texans decided to turn their defense over to Wade Phillips and a 3-4 scheme. Yep, media and fans were saying the Texans didn’t have the personel to make it work, but with a few additions and a new mentality, the Texans have one of the league’s nastiest and most feared defenses.
The Buccaneers have drafted defensive linemen over the past couple of years that were probably best suited for a 4-3 defense, but this is the NFL, you get paid, so you better do what you’re told to do.
Contrary to what most believe, much like the 4-3 defense, the 3-4 defensive scheme has many variations. One of those variations is a one-gap penetrating 3-4 defense. Hmmm, last I checked, that was the skill most Buccaneer defensive linemen were best at. Gerald McCoy and Brian Price were praised for their one-gap penetration while in college and in their short time with the Bucs. Adrian Clayborn is quick, physical, and mean. There is no reason why Clayborn wouldn’t be a fit as a 3-4 defensive end if he was taught correctly. Actually, if you go back to last year’s draft, teams that ran the 3-4 defense considered Clayborn because of his ability to play end in that scheme.
Click on through above to read the whole take.
When the Bucs interview Wade Phillips for their head coaching gig today in Houston — Surely that is a charade. The man is 64 years old, in poor health, and has a playoff record worse than Marty Chokenheimer — the topic of the Bucs’ talent meshing in a 3-4 defense is bound to come up.
Rockstar general manager Mark Dominik would have to give any new coach at least one major impact new linebacker, plus a quality veteran interior D-lineman. If both were 3-4 types, the Bucs would be well on their way to a successful switch.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:07 am
What kind of 3-4? We could run the penetrating 3-4 style the Texans play, probably, if Clayborn could play OLB. We have none of the personnel we need for the traditional Parcells style 3-4 though – which is what most people talk about when they say 3-4.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:09 am
100% agreed. It’s time for Tampa to get with the present and go to the 3-4.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:22 am
If you make McCoy and Clayborn the DEs and put Price in the center I see the line being good. But do we think guys like Bennett and Bowers can play OLB in a 3-4? I think that would be key in helping us transition. We could then go out and add another ILB to go alongside Foster.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:24 am
Clayborn would be better as the penetrating OLB than either Bowers or Bennett imo.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:25 am
Well, just clicked on the link to Justin’s piece and he touched on the issue and he thinks both Bowers and Bennett would work as OLBs in that scheme. I could see it. While not small, they are both more leanly built than a guy like Clayborne.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:31 am
I strongly disagree with JP on that. I don’t think Bowers or Bennett would work very well as OLB. I do think Clayborn could though, and I think we could run it. We’d need another MLB and one more OLB though, if the positions worked out like I think they would.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:32 am
A little more on this, even if Bowers/Bennett could work as the penetrating OLB, we’d be foolish to play them as both OLBs. One of those OLBs (not both) in this scheme needs to be able to drop into coverage and I can’t see any of these 3 working in coverage at all.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:35 am
Bennett, Clayborn, and Bowers played coverage on quit a few snaps this year. All three had relative success. There is no reason to think with proper training they couldn’t elevate that part of their game. Bennett especially given his size and speed.
Personally I’d play Clayborn on the line since he is a bigger guy and doesn’t have as much reach given his right arm. Honestly, he is just as big as Justin Smith and just as powerful. A switch to 3-4 DE might even be a better fit for him anyways.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:37 am
They certainly covered better than Black or Hayes regardless if they only covered in zone.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:45 am
Do you really think Black and Hayes should be our benchmark? Those 2 were terrible all year.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:54 am
@Meh lol Certainly not a league bench mark, but the team bench mark. But I was not simply saying they played well in the coverage opportunities they were given based in comparison to anyone else. Just that when they were in coverage they were not a liability at all. An enhancement for the most part.
I can’t for the life of me remember the game, but it was during the first half of the season in which a couple really plays stand out to me. It was 2nd and 6 and Bennett was standing up in front of the TE. TE ran a quick out and Bennett stopped him for a gain of 4. On the next play, 3 and 2, Bennett was standing up again in front of that same TE. He blew past him and stopped the ball carrier for a 1 yard loss. Plays like that make me believe it is possible.
I can’t recall any specific negative play in which any of them were in coverage. I’m sure they were there, just can’t remember.
January 12th, 2012 at 10:56 am
I want to say Atlanta but just can’t remember exactly what game.
January 12th, 2012 at 11:00 am
-__- the middle paragraph of what Justin said bothers me. “They’re getting paid so they better do what they’re told”……..does that mean they’re supposed to do it well? So just because we’re paying these guys we can give them a defense they’re not familiar with and expect them to excel.
How many times must I say this…….OUR LINEBACKERS SUCK!
January 12th, 2012 at 11:01 am
Think of all the elite 3-4 defenses……they’re accompanied by elite linebackers. Ravens, Steelers, Texans. We have nothing at the linebacker position. Adam Hayward would be in our starting line up. I mean you guys can’t be serious?
January 12th, 2012 at 11:20 am
I agree K2, our d-linemen did what they were told by Jim Bates and tried to fatten up and totally change their game. How did that work out?
January 12th, 2012 at 11:25 am
A few things on this.
Didnt the Bucs begin their Franchise with a 3-4 ??
The Texans had one of the best LB crews in the league before the transition.
JJ Watt has been an insane playmaker for them. He is ridiculous.
Bowers is a Power DE. Although possible he could play OLB, far from guaranteed.
Whoever decides to go to a 3-4 they better be DAMN Sure it will work because the Bucs 4-3 Defense could be QUITE Different with OLBs and a SS>
January 12th, 2012 at 11:27 am
This is one reason Mike Zimmer would be an interesting Coach. He has had top 5 Defenses in both the 3-4 and 4-3.
January 12th, 2012 at 11:37 am
Interviewing Chilly and Sherman has had a sobering effect on the masses , making Wade look like an actual viable option.
And elevating Chokenheimer to superstar status.
Kinda hope they get outa this info gathering and get down to interviewing serious candidates, if they got any.
January 12th, 2012 at 11:40 am
I chuckle because people seem to have forgotten “the horrible jim bates experiment”.
You need a nose that can hold the center of the line (which we don’t have) and multiple good linebackers (which we also don’t have). Now, if they want to adress these items in free agency then, by all means, give it a shot. It couldn’t be worse than last years defense.
January 12th, 2012 at 11:43 am
Calling Pawloski a draft guru is akin to calling Raheem a defensive mastermind.
Here’s why we don’t have the personnel to run the 3-4. Yes, a DE would have to transition to OLB, not a huge deal, but none of our DEs have elite quickness so none of them would be incredibly effective either going after the passer or in reverse. They could do it. Michael Bennett would ideally be a DE in a one gap 3-4. Gerald McCoy would be the other DE and Price would be the NT. I can see all of that happening. I just don’t see Bowers and Clayborn being pass rush terrors coming off the edge nor do I see them being able to drop into coverage. Another thing the Bucs would need, would be at least two more LBs that can play in the 3-4. The jury is still out on Mason Softer on whether he can play at all in the NFL. None of the rest of the LBs are capable of taking on the blocks that LBs in the 3-4 commonly have to take on.
As it stands right now, we have 5 pretty good looking young defensive linemen in the 4-3 and maybe Dakoda Watson as our one decent LB. If we were to switch to the 3-4 we would have 3 good looking defensive linemen, 2 question marks at OLB and Dakoda Watson, who would ideally be the edge rusher in the 3-4 as well. The talent that is currently assembled in the front 7 is far better suited to run a one gap 4-3 than anything else…..well, maybe a 4-2-5, that is if we can find at least one more LB.
January 12th, 2012 at 11:46 am
For history buffs out there, The great Buc defenses of the past had it’s beginnings with the 3-4 defense installed and used with great success by the late John McKay. The Bucs employed the 3-4 defense until 1991, when the 4-3 was first used by Richard Williamson. The 4-3 was continued by Sam Wyche, then known as the Cover-2, later improved by the vaunted Tampa-2 developed by Dungy and Kiffin.
There are still more teams employing the 4-3, but the trend lately has been moving towards a 2-gap version of the old 3-4. However, as a result of a coaching change, some teams have moved back to the 4-3 ie Cleveland and Denver. The choice of scheme at this time appears to be driven by coaches preference more than one scheme being clearly more effective than the other.
There are hardly any pure schemes left, the new buzz word is “hybrid” where the 3-4, 4-3, or 3-3-5, may be employed by a single team or variations thereof, hence the term Tampa 2.5.
History compliments of BucStop.com.
January 12th, 2012 at 11:46 am
There are ways to fix this for sure
Bart Scott FA for stop gap for 2 years
Courtney Upshaw Rd1 trade back
Vontaze Burfict Rd2 He will be there and after watching him play am not too high on the dude
Upshaw and Bowers OLB Burfict and Scott ILB Mcoy – Price – Clayborn
January 12th, 2012 at 11:47 am
Hey, here’s a solution. Hire Ron Meeks away from the Carolina Panthers. Meeks led the Colts to 5 top 10 finishes in 8 seasons despite taking over a team that ranked 31st defensively, despite coaching for a team that focused most of their resources and cash on the other side of the ball. Then he leaves and the defense falls into the bottom 10 and he goes to Carolina with the world’s worst offense and keeps the defense strong despite losing the league’s top DE (Peppers) while helping another DE that had underachieved emerge (Charles Johnson).
January 12th, 2012 at 11:57 am
“Bennett, Clayborn, and Bowers played coverage on quit a few snaps this year. All three had relative success.”
What time did you normally start drinking on Sunday mornings this season?
January 12th, 2012 at 12:04 pm
I don’t think it really matters as long as they learn gap integrity and how to tackle.
I usually started drinking a 9:00 AM on Sunday Mornings unless it was a 4:15 game and then I started drinking at 7:30 AM.
I’m rarely as think as you drunk I am,
and my vacation starts in 27 minutes.
January 12th, 2012 at 12:05 pm
I wouldn’t mind trading down a little and trying to draft Upshaw and Hightower both, 2 big bruising backers suitable for a 3-4.
January 12th, 2012 at 12:07 pm
24 minutes and 17 seconds
January 12th, 2012 at 12:12 pm
@gotbbucs Are you saying they never played any coverage. Because you would be dead wrong if so.
Now, if you have an opinion on them not covering well, I would like to hear it. But simply throwing out emotional gibberish to denigrate my argument is a waste of time.
January 12th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Yes, we could probably switch to a 3-4, but why would we have to?
DE is solid with Claiborne, Bennet and Bowers, add a good run stuffer and we’re set.
DT is good when healthy, need some run stopping depth and we’re set.
LB is a mess and adding 3 new ones would be infinitely easier than re-training a lifetime DE to play LB. I doubt that Bowers has the knees for it.
DB is equally a mess but decent coaching and effort will improve it. A round 1 CB helps immensely.
It’ll be amazing how much the pass rush will improve when teams are forced away from the 2nd and 4’s and actually have to throw into decent coverage.
On defense, coaching and effort make a huge difference. we all know that and we all know that it wasn’t present in 2011
January 12th, 2012 at 12:14 pm
I have an idea: let’s take a defense that emphasizes our position of strength (the DL) and replace it with one that emphasizes our position of weakness (the LBS)! Brilliant!
January 12th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
I think we should keep 4 on the line, but I would love bigger OLBs and quality CBs.
Our line could be killer if we had one dominating DT like Sapp was.
January 12th, 2012 at 1:27 pm
Can we draft a DT that can BALL?
GMC is too bust tweeting, and not doing his bicep curls.
January 12th, 2012 at 1:41 pm
Haha c’mon Stevek. Gerald’s recovery has gone pretty well from what I’ve heard. Maybe tweeting is part of his rehab! Kidding.
January 12th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
I hope GMC blossoms into the #3 pick, 8th highest paid player in the NFL, and an all around nightmare on the D-Line.
With that being said, he has 2 strikes. one more and you’re outtta here!
January 12th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
Anybody see what the Patriots are doing?
We need some dynamic TE’s.
JerMicahael Finley, por favor.
January 12th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Please, stop saying he’s the 8th highest paid player. You’ve said it at least 5 times now. I’m happy you have found google, but I really hate repetitiveness. It’s all about draft order. What number is Bradford? I think you should do a little research on how it all works. And it also depends on how you say he’s the 8th highest paid. Are you talking per year? Guaranteed money? Total money in the contract? I would be willing to bet you have absolutely no clue. But go ahead, jump back on the magic google and find out for me.
January 12th, 2012 at 3:16 pm
We are NOT, I repeat…NOT going to a 3-4 defense. A new coach is one thing but they are not going to throw away two years of top round draft picks to switch defensive sets. Whoever coaches this team will hire a DC that will run a 4-3 and we’ll get the personnel that is missing to make it work. It’s a whole lot easier to get a couple of good LB’s and a DB or two than it will be to turn Bowers and Bennet into LB’s and make McCoy a DE. Let’s get serious here….Raheem wasn’t running a 4-3, he was running a hybrid mess that noone could understand. Get a good DC and we have the core for a good 4-3. We do NOT for a 3-4.
January 12th, 2012 at 3:19 pm
@Stevek…shut your %$##$n pie hole. We already have Thomas bitching about McCoy. Crawl out of his underwear and find something positive to post about.
January 12th, 2012 at 3:30 pm
@SteveK, I suppose we should just go out and scoop up some dynamic tight ends while we’re at the grocery store. While we’re at it, we also need some dynamic wide receivers, should I grab those at Publix too? BTW, Kellen Winslow is a lot more dynamic than a lot of other tight ends in the league.
January 12th, 2012 at 3:38 pm
We should also go out and grab some dynamic Running Backs too. Then let’s go out and get some dynamic LB’s, cornerbacks, and safeties. Looks like he’s got the whole thing all figured out. If only those within our organization had that kind of knowledge, we wouldn’t be in this situation.
January 12th, 2012 at 6:50 pm
I will say something positive as it relates to McCoy. He had a very nice smile and is a blessing to the business of orthopedic surgery. I understand that he is very nice and professional to the tellerswhen he deposits the “8th highest paid player” money in the bank. To date, he has not yet torn a muscle, tendon or ligament brushing his teeth or writing deposits and checks – that is an encouraging sign.
He was also very polite asking Tom Brady to slow down so he could figure out what was going on, he is very polite. Also, he twittered the incident of domestic violence that he observed which documented where her injuries came from. Good job gerald!
January 12th, 2012 at 7:00 pm
Hawaiian:
Is that a negative post from you implying that Dom is not a rock star? I dont know what to say: either good job or hypocrite.
Whichever, you are right, our org is good at only one thing: fielding the cheapest possible team.
January 12th, 2012 at 7:09 pm
Why of course the Bucs could go 3-4 – Raheem Morris built a defense that had a bunch of tweeners – guys that could do both (but, it could be argued, neither very well). It just came off as schizophrenic. There was no commitment to any particular defense.
We have the basic defensive personnel for both (Frank Okam is serviceable at nose) -but the better talent is suited to play a 4-3.
More college talent is now available at NT – we have the linebackers and defensive front – we just need a couple more DB’s.