Aqib Talib No. 69
May 23rd, 2011
Now Joe knows there is a segment of Bucs fans that would fall to their knees and wail how rockstar general manager Mark Dominik has destroyed the Bucs defense for years to come if Dominik decides to jettison troubled Bucs cornerback Aqib Talib for his string of increasingly violent episodes and brushes with the law.
To believe these same fans is to believe that Talib is the second coming of Deion Sanders, one of the few cornerbacks in the history of the NFL who were game-changers.
But Khaled Elsayed of ProFootballFocus.com believes these same fans are grossly short-sighted. He did painstaking research on cornerbacks’ coverage abilities and has Talib ranked in the bottom tier of NFL cornerbacks.
In fact, in a graph titled “Catch Percentage per Coverage Snaps,” Elsayed has Talib rated as the 69th-best cornerback in the NFL. Per Elsayed’s research, Talib was thrown at 59 times and opposing quarterbacks completed 35 passes with Talib defending the targeted receiver.
That’s a stark contrast to Tramon Williams of Green Bay who Elsayed has ranked the top NFL cornerback in this category who gave up 56 completions while being thrown at 123 times.
Unlike Talib, Williams also has shown to be a solid defender in postseason play as well.
Now whether Dominik decides to keep Talib as the legal system works is way in Texas, Joe isn’t sure. But Joe is sure of the following, which he has written before:
Talib is not (yet) an elite cornerback; good, but not elite. Remember, the Bucs last season were 4-1 in games Talib missed due to either suspension or injury, and the one loss was an overtime defeat after which the NFL later apologized for butchering a call that would have resulted in a Bucs touchdown, and a win.
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:18 am
Good stuff, Joe, as always. Unbelievable how you have kept this site exciting during the lockout! It can’t be easy! Great work, and thank you!
Again, Taliban is a decent player who gambles and hurts his team, both on and off the Field. We can’t depend on him, and our dedicated young team leaders ate going to get fed up with his nonsense.
Time to go, thugee man. Our team is working to win a SuperBowl. You need to go someplace else.
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:39 am
Well, 69 is one of my favorate numbers…
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:45 am
hold on to him as long as you can!
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:45 am
That ranking is more ridiculous than the way it was calculated. I’ll live by Raheems mantra… Stats are for losers and these stats take the cake. If the top corner is being thrown at 123 times vs 59 it’s obvious that corner has no respect from opposing QB’s. And 53 completions is worse than 35 no matter how you look at it.
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:59 am
In other news, Nnamdi (who you don’t advocate the Bucs sign) is proven in this article to be never thrown at.
(P.S. I’m not one of the people banging the drum for Nnamdi.)
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:02 am
@Brad The stats aren’t ridiculous. What’s ridiculous is looking at them in a vacuum.
Take GB: The QB has to throw SOMEWHERE, right? The Packers also have Sam Shields and Charles Woodson. So maybe the fact that Woodson was the DPOY and Williams wasn’t as well known had something to do with it?
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:12 am
My guess would be …..Green Bay Has a Better pass rush also ?
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:12 am
Newsflash! God defends from Heaven, floats down to Tanpa stadium. He then proclaims in a loud voice that he loves all of Mankind, and Aqib Talib is not an elite CB- Joe and Capt. Tim are right!
Several regular posters on JoeBucsFan begin booing him, and catcalling. A few shout down that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, and who does he think he is!
[That’s a bit much, don’t you think Capt.Tim? Joe knows you don’t like Talib but let’s not get carried away. — Joe]
More news to follow
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:15 am
NNamdi is never thrown at??
Not by anyone with any sense, that’s for sure!
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:19 am
I’m with you Matt as far as signing Nnamdi. Let’s hope the owners step up.
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:30 am
All in jest Joe, just a laugh to get thru a Monday!
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:35 am
I agree with brad. I think these stats are somewhat skewed and also trivial. Mainly, I feel like people are forgetting that we play cover 2 on a “majority” of snaps, in addition to our terrible pass rush mentioned earlier.
Also, talib has a knack for being a game changer, considering the fact that he single handedly gave us an oppurtunity to win in the cincy game, and definetly played a huge role in the arizona game. On top of that he was one of the only corners in the league to shut down roddy white for 6 qtrs, until he got hurt. His dominance in arizona played a huge part in the win.
I believe the bucs are 4-2 without talib, I find it very hard to forget the atlanta game where roddy white burns us on that 3rd and 20 in the 4th qtr.
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:37 am
We don’t win against Arizona or Cincy without Talib. We probably beat Detroit also.
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:49 am
@Joe
Actually, I think most of us thing he should only be released WHEN we have a suitable replacement for him. To do it before hand would simply be unwise.
Covered and responded to in the past, Joe. That stat conveniently leaves out the rest of the season…you know, the parts where the Bucs won more WITH Talib? The 4-1 stat is taken out of context and you know it.
Not to mention strength of schedule during that period. Of course the backups would do well against most of those teams!
And as far as the link to Pro Football Talk…it is entirely biased and badly calculated. It does not take into account that CBs with fewer throws at him have it so because the QBs are AFRAID to do so…because they could be picked off.
Look…
To begin with…the entire story on this latest episode is not dealt with yet. In fact, no one ever even saw him fire a gun (out of 19 witnesses).
Until he goes to trial, and there is a verdict, he’s innocent until proven guilty.
THAT SAID, Talib does have temper issues and a lack of self control. He is a good player that might be on a path to destruction.
But I’ll stick with Raheem’s words:
“I will tolerate you until I can replace you.”
That says it all.
The Bucs should be looking for a suitable replacement for Talib. Heck, they also need to look for a replacement for Barber. Since this Talib thing started, everyone seems to have forgotten that if we get rid of Talib, it creates a second hole in the CB position, because Barber is in his last year.
When you want to switch jobs, you can quite your current one and start looking, but the wise way to go about it is to look first, find one, and then quite the old one.
Same with good players. Find another first, then cut him.
And even if the Bucs, by some miracle, win the bidding war for Nnamdi…he would only fill one hole, not two. We would still need a replacement on the other side of the field.
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:51 am
How so?
The cardinals need a qb and Cinci is losing theirs this year, not to mention a few good WRs.
May 23rd, 2011 at 9:59 am
Pete:
So the Bucs had a .750 winning percentage with Talib? Might want to count up the wins and losses again.
What context? Talib did not start against Cleveland (win), Washington (win), Detroit (overtime loss), Seattle (win) and New Orleans (gasp, a win!). What are you talking about, out of context? Joe is not Sean Hannity.
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:04 am
I think you guys are forgetting we played a 3-3-5 defense last year to cover up for our secondary- part of the reason we had a bad pass rush- we had to pull a lineman to add a secondary guy. I am sure you all forgot two years ago, when we averaged giving up 2 TDs a game of over 40 yards to the passing game, and your Hero Talib started all 16 games, and was frequently the vicim of those 40 us bombs
Oh yeah, he’s elite alright- lol.
Will the apologists anoint him to saint hood next? Stay tuned!
Unbelievable!
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:08 am
This analysis is faulty. You cant compare a cover 2 corner to man corner. It is apples to oranges. In the tampa 2 you cover a territoryvthat may have 3 eligible receivers in it where a catch in front and tackle in front of first down is a great play. To not acknowledge the diff between cover 2 and cover 3 corners completely discredits that group joe.
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:12 am
The article writer’s name is Khaled Elsayed. Was his list for best players in the US or in Saudi Arabian pro football?
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:17 am
Quit watching stats, start watching game film. When crossing the street most people watch the light – I say to heck with the light, watch the cars, because the light never killed anybody!
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:34 am
Macabee- lmao – wisdom! Here! On a Monday! It’s like a Christmas miracle!
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:34 am
Joe, I’ve argued your little 4-1 scenario before so why waste my time. Could have easily went 5-0 with talib and made playoffs. And the
Bucs Re techincally 5-2 without talib he got hurt what the 2nd drive in the atl game? And the browns who is there #1? Along with the saints,Seattle, and redskinss. Hey look at the lions #1 Calvin Johnson an actual threat on a solid team. Season high 151 yards and basically beat the bucs. We need talib get over it and stop gossiping all these retarded stats.
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:43 am
WOW…I agree with Thomas 2.2…good post T 2.2!
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:47 am
So the only time stats matter is when you try to make yourself think the Bucs will be alright without Talib?
Talib isn’t elite but he is very good. You can bring up the Bucs 4-1 record without him, but I can also think of at least 2 games where he made a big play at the end of a game that sealed it or put us in position to seal it(Bengals, Cardinals). Maybe if he doesn’t play those 2 games we lose. Or maybe if he plays in the game against the Lions we win and make the playoffs(I doubt he would have gotten abused by Calvin Johnson in the 4th quarter/OT like EJ Biggers and Elbert Mack did, one of the reasons we lost that game).
I don’t like making or reading negative comments but there have been quite a few Talib stories on here that put his play on the field down, which is ridiculous. If you want to talk about how he is unreliable because of his off the field issues, fine. But he is a damn good CB.
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:48 am
The NFL (butchered touchdown call) and Raheem (settling for a field goal) getting paranoid beat the Bucs that game.
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:48 am
I wonder if anyone will acknowledge that we players a 3-3-5, ir how bad our pass defense was 2 years ago? Hard to admit that, and still keep blowing the “Aqib is elite” trumpet, huh fellas?
May 23rd, 2011 at 10:51 am
Macabee makes a great point…
Stats are pretty worthless for cb’s… too many close plays and non-plays. The stats only identify a portion of the snaps…aqib is a very good run defender which is so important in our system. Also, the differences in coverages makes a huge difference in the amount of times a player is thrown at. Was it a spectacular catch or just bad coverage? Also safety play can effect these stats, the corners who play with ed reed or polamalu clearly have an advantage. There are too many variables to simplify the cb position into stats.
May 23rd, 2011 at 11:32 am
If you understand the tampa 2, you must analyze each completion and incompletion and seperate whether is a man resp playvor not where the corner lost the one on one. Also a corner can be scorched by a wr and the qb overthrows, this stat will reward the corner – so stats will be weighted in favor of corner vs bad qbs. Also the bucs had the leagues worst pass rush, the packers had clay matthews- this puts buc db’s at a HUGE dusadvantage. Garbage stat from garbage website.
May 23rd, 2011 at 11:43 am
Sorry but that is not a good stat. It is lacking in MANY ways. It does not show the disruption a CB can cause by giving the QB a different look. Doesn’t show his tackling skills. Doesn’t show how often a QB does NOT throw that way because of a certain CB. etc…
Not saying Talib is that great, but he is in the top 10
May 23rd, 2011 at 12:37 pm
WOW, Thomas 2.2 seems to be the only guy that gets it here. Corners in Tampa have always been asked to keep receivers in front of them and not give up big plays. Of course Talib gave up big plays, but the guy still is a zone corner that is about not giving up big plays and not mind receivers making catches in front of him.
May 23rd, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Still no apologist gonna tackle why we played a 3-3-5, or why we couldn’t stop the pass at all the year before- with your hero Talib the thug front and center??
A great old comedy bit by Abbott and Costello. Costello is getting sworn in moth stand, and tells the Judge” sure, but I don’t know why you brought me up here! Between you wanting the truth, and all of his Evidence, I can hardly tell any if my story at all!!”
Kinda what it’s like watching the apology squad try toake an elite CB out of a pigs ear!
May 23rd, 2011 at 2:08 pm
Capt. Tim,
We only played the 3-3-5 on obvious passing downs, and we barely ran it all the second half of the season. It was created as a new wrinkle to our hybrid defense. I can recall you specifically saying during the season last year that it was going to be a great defense. I heard no mention of it as a way to cover up for our weak secondary at that time. By all accounts, our secondary was our strength, as we were toward the top of the league in INT’s, which is a miracle due to our non-existent pass rush. Again, 2 years ago was a disaster with Jim Bates, and nobody played very well in that system. It’s certainly not fair to blame Talib alone for the struggles.
I think I speak for just about every Bucs fan, if we sign Nnamdi, bye bye Talib. However, if not (and he is found innocent), I want him to stay. Elite or not, he’s certainly our best cornerback, and I don’t like getting rid of our best players.
May 23rd, 2011 at 2:50 pm
HawaiianBuc- our secondary was a strength- because we played a 5 man secondary. And we’ve been over this Too many times. Both Raheem Morris and Steve White said the 3-3-5 was our Base defense- the one we ran 50% of the time plus.
You know, we can get a CB as good as Talib( 69- average) with our eyes closed. We have the opurtunity to get a really talented CB this year- someone we don’t have to constantly apologize for, or ignore the stats about, to pretend he’s good!plus the guy could be someone we can count on!
Instead of everyone making excuses for Talib, and pretending he’s something he’s not- why doesn’t everyone try taking the moral high ground? Demand the Bucs run that embarrasssent off, and that they replace him with someone who better represents our community.
That actually works, you know, if everyone agrees and heats up the media- they will get a decent, talented human being in here to replace him!
Isn’t that better than constantly having to make excuses for someone who doesn’t care about the team?
May 23rd, 2011 at 3:05 pm
Hawaiian Buc:
Hell, if the Bucs sign Leon Hall — much more likely — Talib is toast.
May 23rd, 2011 at 3:45 pm
@Capt. Tim
Dont remember you complaining about his “poor play” during the season. Saying that 09 was Talibs fault is just blind hate of the guy. IF there was one guy whos fault it was it was Sabby.
May 23rd, 2011 at 4:08 pm
I gotta agree with Thomas on this one. These “targets” are only thrown to his side of the field, not to anyone in particular he might be covering. Anyone actually watching these games will know that he is our best corner and one of the best in the league.
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:00 pm
he has a cell # already…..
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:17 pm
The D.- my issues are with his repeated violent behavior. His play would warrant Review, but not immediate dismissal. His behavior is , of course, the issue
May 23rd, 2011 at 5:57 pm
Joe and tim you both could not be more wrong. Ill listen to your arguement that he is not a good person, and he cant be depended on because he will be suspended. But if either of you actually think he is the 69th best cornerback in the game then i cant even argue with this stupidity. Joe this article is so bad, cmon. Talib guards #1 receivers Tramon guards 2s and threes. We play primarly zones and greenbay plays man to man with a pass rush that is light years ahead of ours. He ranked 69th in one worthless stat that cant be compared, and you two take that as he is the 69th best corner in the game. Joe or tim name me ten corners who are better. Not better people ,better players.
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Captain,
We did not run the 3-3-5 half the time, not even close. Second, Raheem Morris stated on many times the idea behind running the 3-3-5 was to keep 3 LB’s in the game on third down, mainly Quincy Black. Many of the times, he was the 4th rusher, so it wasn’t even rushing 3 men. I read that just now directly from Steve White’s blog, as well as from various different Bucs sites. A quick google search will show tons of sources backing that up. You will also see on White’s blog that he mentions they only ran it about 5-10 times per game, and only on third downs (he did not like the alignment even run that much). We barely ran it all on the second half of the season, and none at all once Black went to IR. So no, it was in no way designed to cover for our secondary. I don’t know how in the world you think we ran it 50% of the time, but that is absolutely false. A 3-3-5 defense means we only have 3 defensive linemen in the game, which we all know we typically had 4.
May 23rd, 2011 at 6:58 pm
The “4-1 without Talib” is very misleading. That should not be a thing to look at when debating on whether we need him or not!
Yeah we went 4-1. With one of those games coming against the washed up Delhomme led Browns who we barely squeaked out a win against. Another win being where the Redskins poured on 400+ yards on us and gave us break by blowing the PAT at the end. That’s nothing impressive. And the one loss we did have against the “rebuilding since 1957 Detroit Lions”, our defense got burned by Calvin Johnson all game.
The Seahawks and Saints games were the only impressive ones. But the Seahawks also were really bad last year too despite “winning” their division.
So what. They had a little hot streak. I’d still rather have Talib back there instead of Biggers or Mack. Biggers isn’t horrible, he’s average. But he doesn’t get turnovers and make plays like Talib does.
We also WON with Talib too. Oh, but he only went 6-5 in games he played so I guess he’s not that great.
Ask yourself right now, who’s better? Talib, Biggers, or Mack? That’s a no brainer. Btw, why is Mack even on the roster? He sucks!
And the ranking for Talib is BS. There’s no way he’s in the lower tier of NFL cornerbacks.
May 23rd, 2011 at 7:14 pm
Patrick:
Yeah, Mack likely won’t be on the roster next year.
But to be honest, Joe doesn’t know who he’d rather have, Talib or Biggers?
How many games will Talib be suspended, and for how long? Will he be sentenced to prison? These are all unknown factors. If Talib is suspended for half the season, Joe can play better cornerback than Talib would by sitting on his couch.
At least with Biggers, barring injury, he’ll be able to answer the bell.
May 23rd, 2011 at 7:19 pm
jarrett:
Where did Joe write that?
May 23rd, 2011 at 8:13 pm
Yep, it’s pretty clearly a flawed statistic. That’s why football can’t just be simplified to statistics like that. Watch the game film, that’s the only real way to tell.
May 24th, 2011 at 7:53 am
alright joe tim said that, but the title of your story almost makes it like you believe it as well. Clear this up for me joe, minus bad behavior and possible suspension, do you think there are 10 better corners. Please stop using the one play against the steelers for your arguement as well. I agree that if he keeps getting suspended we cant trust him. I also agree that we won games without him. There is no way in the world you will convince me that he is not one of the most talented young corners in the game. If you have two working eyes then this should be fairly obvious.
May 24th, 2011 at 9:15 am
Jarrett- and exactly who are you? Are you an NFL pro scout? A former player? A coach? Or some knot head sitting on his coach, with a man crush on the thug? What do you even base your opinion of Talib on, what you saw between buffalo wings getting stuffed in yer pie hole( and there is NOTHING wrong with that, by the way!!). On TV, you don’t even see. The secondary unless the ball is thrown, then you get a glimpse. I’m just wondering., since you seem to throw out the idea that mine and Joe’s opinion might be stupid compared to yours! Joe has been a reporter and fan for decades, and knows both players and coaches. Talks to them on a regular basis. I’m always right, and self glossing! Where, oh great one, does your vast knowledge stem from? Cause you heard it on da TV?? Right . .
I put Talib at 18 based on talent. If you look at the amount of games he’s missed in his brief career, 24th in the league. That’s right about where the NFL scouts have him. His behavior drops him outta of contention. If I base his standing on the apology boys here, we are all building his golden statue in the middle of the bay – right now.
“He’s ELITE! I SWEAR!, I don’t care what the facts or the experts say! He’s Eliiiiitee!!!
Both Biggers and Lewis played far better than Talib in the first four games last year. Which, by the way, we won! Both will be far better in the first half of this year.
May 24th, 2011 at 9:21 am
And Jarrett- I can tell you’re thinking about lying, and claiming to be a coach or something!
Don’t do it.
I’m big brother, and your neighbor. I’ll know, Jarrett.
I’ll know
May 24th, 2011 at 9:40 am
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! You have a vivid imagination jarrett!
May 24th, 2011 at 10:46 am
here are some more fun stats for everybody…
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2010#defvsrec
May 24th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
No tim i am not a scout or coach. I do watch alot of football including every minute of every buccaneer game. I do not think i am or claim to be an expert. I do not need to be a expert or have my own website to know that you and joe are wrong about this one. Joe love the site, read it everyday but i respectfully disagree with you if you do not think aquib is a top talent at cornerback. Tim you are the only dbag on this website who thinks hes a scout and acts like he has sources. Your source is walter football and joebucsfan so dont talk down to me like your a well connected football authority. By the way tim since i mentioned your self glossing you havent done it once. Read the 25 posts you wrote before i brought it up, god you were getting annoying like i said noone likes a self glossing dbag, so im glad i said something.
May 24th, 2011 at 8:20 pm
aqib* haha i hate when people mispell it too
May 24th, 2011 at 10:44 pm
Jarrett:
That’s cool.