Enough Of The Three-Man Front!
December 7th, 2010
When Joe wants to learn about defensive line play, who better to turn to than former Bucs defensive end Steve White? The guy has played the game at its highest levels and breaks down football so even the chicks at Panera with their foo-foo coffees and lattes (with Sweet ‘N Low!) prattling about Pottery Barn tripe can understand.
So on his blog, “Passing on the Game,” White details what a mess this is to employ a three-man defensive front rush on a drop back quarterback like Matty Ice.
While White is proud of how far the Bucs have come this season, he’s about ready to toss his remote control through his plasma TV if he sees Raheem Morris use another three-man defensive front again in passing situations.
Now I know I have beaten this dead horse all year but it literally made my head hurt to see the Bucs use the 3-3-5 so much yesterday. We may not have any pro bowlers up front but we do have some guys who can pass rush if given a chance. Instead they were put in situations where they three guys had to try to beat five along with a chip block or we blitzed which never seems to get much pressure either. Don’t get me wrong, a few times guys still were able to beat two offensive lineman and get some pressure, but why make it so damn hard? I just will never understand why Coach Morris is so wedded to a defense that doesn’t produce favorable results the majority of the time. Especially when in my eyes its clear that a four man rush has been much more productive this year.
I’ll tell you this much, no matter what anybody says I am convinced that we would have been better off rushing four to at least have a shot of getting some pressure on Matt Ryan on 3rd and 20 instead just rushing three. And while that one play didn’t lose the game for us, that conversion was definitely a back breaker.
Joe touched upon this Sunday. Ryan needed to get 20 yards for a first down. He’s not that mobile. The absolute worst thing the Bucs could have done was allow Ryan plenty of time to find an open receiver, and Matty Ice threw a perfect pass for a 25-yard gain and a first down.
To Joe, this was a blatant example of playing not to lose instead of playing to win.
The Bucs lost.
December 7th, 2010 at 9:23 am
joe please yes and enough of dropping styles and bennett into coverage.It is not fooling no one
December 7th, 2010 at 9:29 am
3rd and 20, bring pressure and hurry the throw.
December 7th, 2010 at 9:55 am
I like mixing in the three man front. Wether it’s the 3-4 or 3-3-5 it’s a good thing that keeps us unpredictable. We just need better LBs that can actually rush the QB, plus DEs that can drop into coverage and be an actual OLB instead of slow awkward DEs pretending to be an OLB.
December 7th, 2010 at 9:56 am
It’s called being OUT COACHED by the other team.
December 7th, 2010 at 10:00 am
Seriously I know you guys see it. We blitz 2 or 3 guys and get no pressure and you just know a big completion is about to happen. It happens way to much.
Our LBs are horrible at blitzing and that is partly on coaching, but mostly on the players. If we had a couple LBs that excelled at blitzing everyone would love the 3 man front cause we’d be killing people with it.
Also, with a guy like Robert Quinn or Sam Acho at DE, they’d be a huge asset when asked to drop back into coverage at the snap. Right now our DEs are all instant liabilities when they drop into zone.
December 7th, 2010 at 10:12 am
@Jdouble, I think you’re mixing two different schemes. In the 3-3-5 no LB’s are blitzing. It’s merely a 3 man rush and dropping 8 into zone coverage. The problem is that even the best 3 man fronts have trouble getting pressure.
You are right about the LB’s blitzing though, they definitely could be more effective.
You also said, “Right now our DEs are all instant liabilities when they drop into zone.”. Aren’t they that way just about every snap regardless of coverage?
Seriously, our DE’s are average at best.
December 7th, 2010 at 10:18 am
What was McCoy’s stat line from Sunday’s game?
December 7th, 2010 at 10:21 am
“I just will never understand why Coach Morris is so wedded to a defense that doesn’t produce favorable results the majority of the time.”
That has got to be the quote of the season, hands down.
December 7th, 2010 at 10:31 am
BucfanJeff,
3-3-5 just means instead of being a 3-4, they have one less LB and one extra DB. This doesn’t stop them from blizting anyone of these guys. That is why it’s great. It keeps the QB guessing. I’ve seen us blitz with one LB and Barber from the 3-3-5 quite a bit.
December 7th, 2010 at 10:36 am
Buc You Says:
December 7th, 2010 at 10:21 am
“I just will never understand why Coach Morris is so wedded to a defense that doesn’t produce favorable results the majority of the time.”
That has got to be the quote of the season, hands down.
Really? I think it’s pretty stupid. We don’t have alot of talent on our defense and yet we have the #1 second half defense in football. We;ve aloud the least amount of second half points and shut 6 teams out. We also lead the league in INTs. We’ve won 7 games with this crew BECAUSE IT DOES PRODUCE FAVORABLE RESULTS MOST OF THE TIME. Just because we don’t get great sack stats doesn’t mean it ain’t working folks.
December 7th, 2010 at 10:57 am
How about holding the players on the field accountable to make some F$#ing plays??
Maybe, Just maybe the thought on that play was that they weren’t getting ANY pressure all day so you keep people in coverage and don’t let anyone get in position to make a G$dD*mn 20 yard catch??
The defense that was called was the right call. If Biggers(who already admitted he wasn’t) was in the right position White would have never been open.
December 7th, 2010 at 11:12 am
The defense is a bend don’t break philosophy and opportunistic as far as getting turnovers. Bucs scored 14 off turnovers Sunday.
Has worked well against weaker opponents, not so much against the good teams.
It especially doesn’t work if we commit the key turnover instead, as happened wih the late pick Sunday.
December 7th, 2010 at 11:13 am
Ever consider that with Grimm and Talib out Raheem was simply concerned about the Bucs secondary’s ability to cover the Falcons receivers for even shorter routes?
December 7th, 2010 at 11:18 am
You guys, yes you Buc You, should go read the ntire article. Joe chose this segment to support what he said earlier and that is fine, but therer is muxh more. Steve praises the line and says they did a good job against ATL. He also touches on the “have not beaten good teams” comments. I wish Joe would have ran with the more posative poarts of Steve’s column, but this part is important as well.
December 7th, 2010 at 11:35 am
I said the same thing about the offense yesterday.
With the benefit of hindsight everyone is a genius.
December 7th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Thomas I knew you were a slow thinker but but not this slow. I already told you stats are for losers STUPID!! I am going to haunt your dumb ass for years. Ha Ha Ha Ha
December 7th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
@ Thomas
Steve White said he had a few tackles, a few QB pressures and a handful of QB hits. Sorry to burst your bubble.
December 7th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
The man is right on about this comment! He didn’t pull any punches and came right out and said it like it is. It essentially defines Raheem’s defensive play calling.
“I just will never understand why Coach Morris is so wedded to a defense that doesn’t produce favorable results the majority of the time,” ex-Buccaneer Steve White.
Again, that has got to be the quote of the season, hands down.
December 7th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
McBuc,
They won’t do that, because they automatically ignore anything they don’t want to hear. They twist everything to make themselves feel better, probably because they were never loved. You watch, Buc You won’t even respond to us on this, he never does. All the haters just say the same baseless statements over and over, without caring that it is completely ignorant.
Okay, Buc You, then go post your Raheem feelings on his blog. I dare you again. What are you so scared of? Come on little girl, do it.
December 7th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
@Eric
Not sure how it didn’t work well against good teams? Didn’t you just say we scored 14 off of TO’s against Atlanta? Aren’t they a good team? What about the pick against Baltimore? Are they a good team? It didn’t result in a win, but we still forced turnovers.
December 7th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
I quoted a comment from Steve White and said it was the comment of the season, a defining quote.
So what is the problem?
Regarding this:
“I just will never understand why Coach Morris is so wedded to a defense that doesn’t produce favorable results the majority of the time,” ex-Buccaneer Steve White.
Again, that has got to be the quote of the season, hands down.
December 7th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Didn’t work in that he bucs didn’t win the game. Meaning the key mistake could not be overcome against Atlanta. Defensively I think it worked pretty well. The untimely pick was the key.
December 7th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
So Eric,
That’s Raheems fault? I just can’t figure out why you three dislike him so much.
December 7th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
In his case I do not blame Raheem, I think Monte would also not have blitzed on 3rd and twenty. Dude made a great diving catch. It happens. The blizt puts the big play in he mix, most of the time. Of course he D could have bowed up afer the catch too and won the game.
I don’t dislike Raheem, just don’t think he is the guy to get us to where we want to be.
December 7th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
could have fooled me
December 7th, 2010 at 5:04 pm
Eric,
I’m not a Raheem fan, you know that, but this year coach Morris has improved over last year. We didn’t see the stupid challenges or piss poor clock management like last year so I think that Raheem is growing and making better decisions than last year.
Another thing is that Raheem has this team playing as a unit – something Gruden couldn’t get the Bucs to do.
I’m in favor of another 2 years for Raheem – as long as I continue to see the improvement. Yes this was improvement over the losses we had last year in which the game was over by halftime.
December 7th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
@Derf,
That’s an opinion I can respect. I know you don’t really like Raheem, and that’s fine. However, at least you are man enough to admit that improvement has been made and he deserves a chance to take us further. If we regress in the next couple years, I’ll be right there with you in saying it might be time for a change. I really don’t think that’s going to happen.
December 7th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
Has he improved over last year, sure.
But when you create a disaster(2009) why does that become the proper benchmark for improvement?
Obviously, he is here for the 2011 season. I think it is a big waste of time, but have been wrong before.
December 7th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Eric, part of the 2009 clusterf*** that happened wasn’t Raheem’s fault (in my lowly opinion). I really, really doubt that Raheem had much, if any, say in Bates or Jagodski’s hiring. Coach Morris was wet behind the ears and is showed in his coaching but he didn’t want to rock the boat.
This year I’ve seen flashes of creativity – like the failed onside kickoff attempt (LOVED IT) and it the play calling of the pass from Graham last week. I’ve noticed an improvement in challenges as well.
However this past game was way too conservative and the Bucs SHOULD have gone for it the second 4th and 1 – at least try to get them to go offsides like NO did against the Cincy Bungles.
The Bucs will finish the season with a better than .500 record and that’s improvement. Look at how Cody Grimm stepped up and Zuttah is filling in nicely as is Lee. Freeman looked great in the first 8 games but lately I’m seeing him fall into bad habits.
Overall the team is doing like the stock market – in the right direction and stable.
December 7th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
I look at improvement comparisons from he 2008 team to the 2010 team.
Is there a single statistical categorey where the 2010 team is NOT worse than he 2008 team.
I though the house cleaning was for improvement. So far two years of serious regression across the board.
December 7th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Hawaiian Buc,
I’ll admit when I make a mistake. I thought this year’s team would be terrible – they aren’t. The 2010 team is actually doing ok. I mean look at other teams in the NFL – the Skins, Vikings, Cowboys, etc., and we shouldn’t be complaining.
But let’s look @ the Cowboys and Vikings for a second. Both teams were floundering under Phillips and Childress. Once those coaches were let go what happened? The teams flourished.
One thing a lot of people don’t mention is team chemistry and to be honest Raheem has that with these kids. Now will they grow and improve? If Cody Grimm is an example that yes I’m excited. If M. Williams is an example then yes I’m excited.
BUT I’m disappointed in Benn. He has shown flashes of great running but how about getting him the ball? How about WR screens? Look at what the Patriots did yesterday with Deion Branch and we can’t do that with Benn?
I’m also concerned about the Bucs D-line. The looked great at Atlanta (Part 1) and ok against the Ravens but yesterday? that 3-5-3 SUCKS.
Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox now!
December 7th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Eric the most important category that is improvement from 2008 is this:
AVERAGE PLAYER AGE.
The 2008 teams was held together with duct tape and bubble gum and at the end of the season it showed. However there is another difference between 2008 and the 2010 team that only the Glazers can love:
TEAM SALARY – lower in 2010!
December 7th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Eric the 2008 team had no room for improvement whereas the 2010 team has LOTS of room for improvement – from the HC, OC down to the QB, D-line, etc.,
December 7th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
@Eric,
I guess it’s true, stats really are for losers. So that’s how you judge improvement, by stats from one year to the next (with totally different players)? Then why don’t we compare the stats from 2002 to 2008. That will show major regression, would it not? How about from 2002 to 2003. By your theory, his arse should have been fired at that point. You are now truly reaching. First you say it’s about wins and losses, then it’s about division titles, now it’s about stats. Really, stats? Are you a S.I.D. or something? It’s amazing ESPN hasn’t jumped all over your analysis. They would probably want to put you on the payroll, maybe you could even replace John Clayton. Maybe Joe can get you the number to Trey Wingo.
December 7th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
Eric biggest difference between 2008 and 2010 is in the takeaway/Giveaway category
In 2008 the Bucs were ranked 11/32 this year it’s 5/32 so THERE!
December 7th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
@Derf,
I agree with practically everything you just said. I would argue (hopefully correctly) that Benn will show tremendous improvement in the next couple years, which is typical for a WR. You are right about the screens, it worked for 30 yards on Sunday. Like all of us, I don’t really understand enough about the X’s and O’s of football to give an educated opinion of play calling, but there have been times when I would have went the other way with certain calls (both offense and defense). But that’s why they do what they do and we do what we do I guess.
December 7th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
How about reality:
Defense:
2008 9th
2010 15th
Offense
2008 13th
2010 23rd
December 7th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
As far as regression from 2002, actually not really. Bucs had the number one defense in football in 2005. Near the top most other years.
13h ranked offense actually higher than 2002.
Keep trying, i appreciate the effort.
Actually the primary stat is Division tiles and Championships. We know who wins on that comparison too.
The botom line is that the team has not improved since 08 except in the subjecive “feel good” opinions of some so called bucs fans.
December 7th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
@Hawaiian Buc
“If we are not improved, answer these questions for me. Are we better (and more talented) at QB? WR? RB? DT? CB? Safety? We are better in every statistical category (except special teams). So yes, that would be improvement”.
Satistics are for losers but you used them yourself in a different thread, to show improvemen, what gives?
December 7th, 2010 at 8:17 pm
You really want to go there Mr. Clayton, I mean, Eric, fine. Let’s do it.
2002: #1 Ranked Defense in total yards, #1 against the pass , #5 against the run, #1 points allowed. #1 in Takeaway. Record 15-4
2003: #5 ranked defense in total yard, #5 against the pass, #13 against the run, #4 points allowed, #11 in Takeaway. Record 7-9
That is regression sir. You can say the offense increased, but only because they had to. When you are holding people to 12 points per game, you don’t need to do anything offensively, which is again why stats are over emphasized. If that’s how you show improvement, then you truly are more stupid than I thought. Should he have been fired, no. Was he, no. But it does show that stats mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. I guess you would say the San Diego Chargers are the best team in the NFL, since their stats are the best. I guess you think the Jets are only one game better than us, since they’ve only beaten one team with a winning record. See, you can twist around stats all day to suit your needs, but bottom line is the end result. We haven’t reached an end result yet, so why don’t you STFU and let the pros do their job.
December 7th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
I was proving that we are better than last year, even by your worthless theory. Take away stats altogether, are we better in those categories? The answer is an obvious yes, even going back to Lord Gruden’s days. Would you rather have Antonio Bryant and Jeff Garcia back over Freeman and Williams? Warrick Dunn over Blount?
December 7th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
Once again feel good impressions.
December 7th, 2010 at 8:47 pm
You are a true piece of work (work being a nice word to use in this instance). Why do you enjoy this so much, seriously? Why do you want to kick a man on the streets because you don’t “think” he’s capable of doing a good job because his stats don’t match up to Gruden’s. Do you know that by him leaving, it affects the lives of other coaches, players, and their families? For what, not beating a team with a winning record in the NFL? Could I do the same to you at your job? How about if I come in and evaluate how you do your job (one which I have zero experience), and based on my evaluation, I decide if you keep your job or not. If he hasn’t deserved the opportunity, that’s one thing, but that’s not the case with Raheem. If he’s had 4 or 5 years to truly build the team and not shown anything, then I could see where you are coming from. GRUDEN IS GONE – FOREVER. That’s not Raheem’s fault. That’s not the supporters of Raheem’s fault. We are all moving on, why can’t you? I’m sure you are trying to twist the knife a little and I get that, but if you seriously think he should be gone then that’s really amazing to me. Regardless, he is our coach and he will be, why does it kill you so much to support the team? Do you cheer for us or against us?
December 7th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
Well if you want the real genesis of the Eric mind set, it starts with all the folks (especially one loud radio host) who called for Chuckies head and celebrated when they got it. Also those who continue to constantly criticize and show no respect for the one coach who brought us our most shining moment in the sun. Thus I am the self proclaimed Chuckie defender of JBF.com.
Next, did not like the flipant attitude at one buc with the way they treated 55.
Lastly, the no spend attitude of the Glazer Boys and the quick hiring of Raheem also pissed me off.
So, I guess I would characterize myself as a jilted bucs fan. Dont like the current attitude of ownership and don’t see us winning anything with the current approach. I feel they jilted me, not I them.
Nuttin personal against Rah i am sure he is a nice guy.
I don’t think I am the only one in Tampa who feels this way.
December 7th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
I can respect that opinion, and in fact, I agree with you on many. First off, anyone who does not respect what Gruden did for this organization is not a Buccaneer fan. I truly believe that. However, I would be lying if I said I was totally against the idea. I don’t live in Tampa and at that time I had no idea what the “locals” thought of him (hadn’t found any sites like this at that time), so I formed my opinion on my own. I didn’t particularly like the direction of the team, mainly I didn’t like the offense. I know that it was probably more a result of personnel versus actual coaching ability, but he definitely had a huge hand in that (although none of us really know exactly how much). I did notice that the players seemed to have tuned him out, which in all fairness is very normal with his personality after several years. Nothing against him, just the truth. My opinion REALLY changed when he refused to start McCown against Atlanta, instead opting for Griese. Who knows if it would have mattered, but there is no arguing he was dishonest (which he has a right to be, but you will lose the locker room for it). I knew the end was near at that point. However, I still never screamed for his head, but I understand those who do. Celebrating it is just plain trashy, I give you that.
As for Brooks, can’t really argue that. Unfortunately, it’s a shi&&y side of this business, and every team does it. I’ll never forget when the Dolphins did the same to Marino. However, he has forgiven, so I can too.
As for the Glazers, that gets really complicated. We don’t know what their real attitude is, because they rarely speak in public. I do know they knew Raheem for a long time and they obviously saw something special in him. I have my own business, and I’ve had a couple workers that I saw the same. I do everything in my power to keep them with my company, everyone else be damned. They would know better than us. I do not believe they hired him because he was cheap, but rather they paid him as he was, an unproven coach. Now if he continues success and they still don’t pay him, then that’s a different story.
The part I truly disagree with is that you don’t see us winning with the current approach. We are winning. We are not beating the best, but we are beating teams that are either worse than us, or similar to us in talent. That’s not as easy as you think (which is why the Browns beat NE and NO, etc. etc.). We’ve improved across the board, and as long as we are going up, I don’t see the problem. If we won 4 or 5 games this year (or for that matter, if we do next year), I will be right there with you, but I just don’t see it happening. I don’t see how we regress with the nucleus we have, and with the experience our coaching staff is gaining. I don’t see why you can’t just support them at this point, because ultimately you have no choice.
December 7th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
Ok, your right, I got no choice.
December 7th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
You make some good points Hawaiian Buc, Ill try and be more fairminded.
December 7th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
Sounds good, I’ll try to be more respectful of your opinion.
December 8th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
The 3-3-5 defense is actually why this team has won 7 games. It makes the offense beat Rhonde and Aquib, instead of a 3 rookie DL(Moore, Price, McCoy). I like our odds better with that senario! If we sign a great DE this off season, expect to see 4-3-4 defenses.
December 8th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
Nice exchange Hawaiian and Eric.
December 9th, 2010 at 6:56 am
Nah, Eric is just playing the” I’m really a bucs fan, I’m just disenchanted” card. It’s a lie. Buc Fans don’t celebrate our loses, the disappear if we are winning. Eric only post when he can trash the Bucs. He is just another bitter, angry at life hater, albeit an eloquent one.