Mark Dominik Smart In Donald Penn Saga
July 29th, 2010
By STEVE CAMPBELL
JoeBucsFan.com analyst
Steve Campbell from time to time writes a column for Joe, often dealing with the offensive line. Campbell once upon a time in a different life was an offensive lineman on a prominent BCS college team.
With the Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2010 training camp set to open this weekend, there are plenty of things to look forward to. One thing Bucs fans may not be looking forward to is the blindside protection of franchise quarterback Josh Freeman by a converted basketball player who has never started a game.
While the physical attributes of Demar Dotson (6-9, 315) are definitely intriguing, throwing an inexperienced player in at left tackle is suicide in the NFL. And that is exactly what is staring in the face of the Buccaneers right now because of the situation with Donald Penn and his contract.
Penn is not expected to be present Friday when the rest of the Bucs report. The left tackle skipped the entire offseason workout program. He was tendered as a restricted free agent for $3.168 million and when the June deadline passed, the Bucs reduced that offer by $100,000, the most they were allowed to slash it.
The impression I get from the Bucs fans, is that the Bucs are being “cheap” and they ought to break the bank on Penn, because he is a “great” or above average player at a premium position. Unfortunately, when I watch tape of Penn from last season, I don’t see a great or even an above average player.
Looking back, the Buccaneers have had some really poor players manning left tackle. I’m old enough to remember Ed ‘Too Tall’ Jones and Harvey Martin abusing Gene Sanders in the 1981 divsional playoff game in Dallas. From 1988-1999, the Bucs had a very good left tackle in Paul Gruber. Had he not played on such poor teams, Gruber would have been a more household name, but he was more than solid every year he played here. Since, it has been really bad.
Pete Pierson and George Hegamin took turns playing there in the 2000 season. The Bucs then drafted Kenyatta Walker in the first round in 2001 and actually tried to make him a left tackle in his rookie year, even though he played right tackle all three years in college.
Roman Oben played decently there in the Super Bowl season of 2002 and just average in 2003 before he was on his way to San Diego. The 2004 season brought us the failed Derrick Deese experiment. In 2005 and 2006 it was (gulp) Anthony Davis. Luke Petitgout signed a big deal in 2007, but he hurt his knee in the fourth game and was done for the year.
Which brings us to Penn.
Penn has been the starting left tackle since the fifth game of the 2007 season. Initially, Penn played pretty well for an undrafted free agent with little to no experience. In the first half of the 2008 season, Penn along with the other members of the offensive line, played above average football. The line as a whole regressed as that season went on, and they carried their below average play into the 2009 season. In particular, Penn’s play has regressed over the last couple of years. In both 2008 and 2009, Penn has noticeably gained significant weight in both seasons. Penn was reportedly over 360 pounds at the end of the season.
I’m not a huge fan of statistics to value offensive lineman, but unless you’re watching game film, that’s all you have to go on.
Two websites, ProFootballFocus.com and FootballOutsiders.com do a nice job at breaking down the offensive lines. Here’s what I discovered about the Bucs left tackle holdout: Penn only gave up five sacks in 2009, which is dead middle of the pack for all offensive tackles. But where it gets ugly is allowing quarterback pressures, allowing quarterback hits, and penalties. Of the 75 offensive tackles listed, Penn was ranked 66th, 63rd, and 67th respectively. As a team, the Bucs had the highest yards-per-carry average when they ran off left tackle and around left end. So, Penn is underrated as a run blocker, but way overrated as a pass blocker.
Forgetting all the statistics, I definitely side with the Bucs in this debate.
I don’t really want to invest in a player long term who has the propensity to gain weight as the season goes on. What does it say about a player who gains 60 pounds in a contract year? How much weight would he gain once you broke the bank on him and signed him to a long term deal? Is he really a great left tackle? Sometimes I think we’ve been blinded by so many bad players at that position in Tampa that we think average is great. I keep hearing that we’re going to get Freeman killed. Can Dotson or Xavier Fulton do much worse than 63rd on allowing quarterback hits?
The numbers say Penn is an average player. I think Bucs general manager Mark Dominik wants to see Penn play a whole season at 320 pounds and play well, before he does the long term dance with him.
With outstanding left tackle prospects Gabe Carimi (Wisconsin) and Anthony Castonzo (Boston College) lurking in the April 2011 draft, and the potential for the Bucs to be drafting in the top 10, Penn may want to re-think his stance.
July 29th, 2010 at 10:15 am
I like this article i hope Penn reads it. he knows its now or never for him. he wants to pull a jamarkis russel on us get some money then not give a crap. he knows that this is the best chance for him to get paid. i hope we make him prove him self onhis tender. or at best give him a two year deal.
July 29th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Penn is not that good, and an unproven player is suicidal.
Doesn’t sound like we have a good left tackle option for 2010.
Whoops.
July 29th, 2010 at 10:39 am
I think he is good just not that good to be holding out
July 29th, 2010 at 10:48 am
Good article. It brings up an excellent point that Penn might look good compared to past LT’s.
The weight issue is really a non-issue with me. All you do is put a weight clause in his contract and he’ll lose serious money if he gets out of shape.
The one thing that bothers me is if the Bucs don’t see Penn as the long-term answer and they will likely lose him after this season, why the hell didn’t they draft a LT? The Dream said this season is all about #5 and a young QB needs quality protection on his blind side.
I guess the plan is to get by with Penn (et al) this season then use next season’s 1st round pick on a LT.
July 29th, 2010 at 10:55 am
Very nice to read but this is ridiculous. …Penn is a solid, young left tackle who is leaps and bounds better than what we have. Which seems to get lost. These college guys could be total busts. .Make a deal. …He’s played well enough. And what about all the experts talk about continuity on the line?
Pay Penn and invest the draft pick somewhere else.
July 29th, 2010 at 10:56 am
Great article Steve, now go lock all your doors. The loons are about to come searching.
July 29th, 2010 at 10:56 am
“Mark Dominik Smart In Donald Penn Saga’
Smart maybe by not giving Penn a long-term deal, but really dumb playing Russian roulette with Freeman’s mentality, productivity and health. Remember, it’s all about #5!
July 29th, 2010 at 10:58 am
Louie — what if Penn would not accept a weight clause?
The only place I differ is I don’t think the Bucs want to move past Penn, I just think they want to pay the right price for Penn. That is 100% speculation on my part, so could be wrong.
July 29th, 2010 at 11:09 am
As an old timer, I have a bit more perspective and patience than most who post. You see, I was their for the very first Buc’s game.
For those who don’t have patience, the immediate future may look bleak, but Steve’s article is dead on. Penn is OK but not a “franchise” LT. He was found on Minnesota’s practice squad and is lucky to be starting in the NFL. If he does not come to his senses and report to play for $3+mil for the next 5 months of work, the Bucs will plug his spot with a journeyman LT or maybe we have someone capable of handling that position already on our roster.
The entire offensive line is suspect in my opinion. No one should feel safe for their job. Zuttah regressed filling in at LG. Sears loss affected the entire team as he was the best lineman we had. And the right side of the line has not lived up to it’s billing either. Our line play is below NFL average and it shows in the stats and on the field.
We are not going to the Super Bowl this year regardless of who plays LT this year. We will need at least one more year of good drafting and FA acquisitions to have the talent level to compete for a playoff spot. I will watch for progress in scheme and coaching this year and more talent to come next year. I will support the team and look forward to being a contender for years to come because I am a Buccaneers fan.
July 29th, 2010 at 11:19 am
Seeing both sides of the argument, offer him a 1 year $4.25 million deal for this year with the guarantee of a long term deal if certain incentives are met and maintained.
And we can still draft one of the LT studs in next years draft.
Win-Win.
July 29th, 2010 at 11:25 am
If you think Penn is an average LT:
If Dominik was “smart”, he would have put a second round tender on Penn. If there was a taker, the Bucs could have used a draft pick on a LT.
If you think Penn is one of the better LTs:
Pay the man. Not just the 1st and 3rd tender. Get him locked up!
July 29th, 2010 at 11:38 am
Good article! A few things to remember. Several magazines have listed Donald Penn as one of only two red chippers(top ten) on the team, Aqub Talib being the other. Also, Three things contributed to some bad numbers foe Penn( qb pressures/hits) 1) Bryron Leftwich was an immobile target, with a long standing reputation of holding on to the ball to long. 2) Jerremy Zuttah struggled badly at left guard. Played well on right side, poorly on the left side. 3) all the offensive linemen were forced to lose weight, in order to be more mobile in the failed “zone blocking” scheme we were using for the first 8 games. Penn ain’t really a svelte, mobile kinda guy. More of a “skinner knocker” kinda tackle. When you look at the monster DEs he shut down last year, He’s better than this article gives him credit for! That said, is he a franchise LT- probably not,but he is good. He may have “peaked as a player, also. Is he the most athletically gifted left tackle on the roster? Nope, not even close- that person is Demarr Dotson. That’s what Jeff Faine was saying when discussing Dotson. He is extremely atheletic. Unusually so for a big guy. Plus he looked good in the games he played in last year! But, he also is really inexperienced. OL coach Pete M. Is spending alot of time with Dotson, and really thinks- if he can improve his fundamentals- that Dotson can be an ELTE tackle. I know some of you keep bring up the interview ,where he said he may not be ready to be a starting LT. All that proved is that he is a good teammate! He knew Penn was holding out. What’s he gonna say? ” screw you , Don, I’m ready ta take your job!”. You won’t make many friends in the NFL with that kinda statement! Penn will play this year, they have him in a squeeze. He has to, if he wants a crack at free agency, or a check to hold him over thru the strike. But he is a good run blocker. Far better than Trueblood. Don’t be surprised( you heard it here first!!) when you see Dotson at LT, and Penn at Right tackle. Another reason Dominck is not in a hurry to sign a long term deal- right tackled don’t get the big money. And if Dotson becomes the player they think he can be, we just upgraded both Tackle spots, without wasting a first round pick on one!! Win-win!
July 29th, 2010 at 11:38 am
Good article in general. The stats sound familiar. 🙂
QB Hits are also a function of things beyond the blocker’s abilities. They are impacted by poor running game, lopsided scoring and a QB’s propensity to hold the ball too long.
The weight gain is a red herring as you could write a contract that stipulates it as a clause (I suspect but am no lawyer). Fact is, using weight as the determining factor is short sighted. Some guys play better at heavier weights (some don’t). Irrespective, the weight will take time off the knees and it provides an easy rallying cry to folks who want to pan the guy for his physique.
July 29th, 2010 at 11:44 am
Plus , Right tackles can be a little, ahem, “bigger”, As they don’t have to out quick the fast DEs. They have a tight end ta help out with a chip block here and there. So Penn can do the fifty wings at “Mugs”, instead of the Twenty!
July 29th, 2010 at 11:49 am
As a former OT, 50 wings, compared to 20, is WELL worth a paycut of a paltry million or two.by the way , that was a great post, and I expect a couple of “atta boys”, for my hard work!
July 29th, 2010 at 11:49 am
Capt.Tim, damn! I actually agree with most everything you said AND you didn’t say anything degrading or obscene. Bravo!
July 29th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Another option is to move him to LG if Dotson proves himself at LT. That would push Zuttah backing up Faine at Center adding greater depth.
Although Capt. Tim’s option of replacing Trueblood would be the greater immediate need. I just can’t bear to watch him get penalized at the worst time possible any more. You know it’s going to happen every game, you just don’t know when.
July 29th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
But, is he sub-par to the back-ups?
Is there a better alterntaive to Penn in free agency?
Will Tampa even pay a veteran FA to replace Penn?
None of this is Donald Penn’s fault whatsoever. This is probably the ONLY time in his career he will be able to put forth leverage and maximize his pay day. It’s his right. The Bucs didn’t address this issue in the off-season, so now the Bucs will have to pay or play back-ups.
And if Penn is so sub-par, then no one will mind playing the back-ups. And if that is truely the sentiment, then don’t get mad at Penn because he won’t sign. Just press on and anticipate the new back-ups moving into the starting role as a LT.
Bottom line, Penn is not a bad guy. None of this is his fault whatsoever. It is his time to apply his leverage. It is his time to get rewarded for this leverage.
The Dom and the Glazer’s can be stingy and play back-ups. Let them.
But don’t blame Penn or his agent, for they are playing their cards exactly how they should be played. I mean why fold a good hand? You feel sorry for the Glazer’s who have the lowest payroll in the NFL, who didn’t even pay for their stadium? The tax payers paid for their stadium. They have the revenues and profit maximized right now for the Tamap Bay Buccaneers atm. Virtually no expenses. Stop feeling sorry for the Glazers.
July 29th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Spirit of ’76- great stuff, your first post damn near brought a tear to my Eye! And Louie- I don’t really think you are a hater. And believe me, neither am I! I grew up a Bucs Fan, and I love this team. You AND I don’t agree with slot of things that have happened lately. But sometimes things happen for a reason, and we don’t have the whole story yet. I think Mark Dominick is proving to be very smart in his decissions( other than the Clayton contract). I am willing to give Raheem a year- based only on the players enthusiasm about him. If you notice, I never start out with the name calling or insults- to anyone! But if people can dish out the” Raheem is an idiot!”, or ” the Glazers are morons!”, then I figure they dish it out, they can take it. I think it’s really nasty to insult people you don’t even know, while hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet. I think they wouldn’t talk that way to them in person- Why here. I think almost all of us support this team. Including ownership and management. The one thing I do know personally, is that the Glazers are Obsessed with this team winning. They have done some amazing things in the business world, but consider the Superbowl their proudest accomplishment. They DESPERATELY want this team winning again, and are doing what they believe is right to do so. Knowing that gives me the confidence to know that this team will turn around. And it’s gonna be a brief stay at the bottom of the win column! So, yeah, this is my kinda post. Nobody calling anybody names- just talking about the team and game I love!
July 29th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Javier — you are perhaps the most misinformed person I have seen on this site. Penn has almost no leverage and has not been dealt a “good hand.” Just take a deep breath and think about what happens to Penn if he plays that “good hand.”
July 29th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Good points as usual Capt.
For those who think the Glazers are “greedy,” have you considered that it is in the Glazers own “greedy” self-interest for the Bucs to be competitive? Surem they can make short-term profits by cutting costs BUT they know their long-term wealth is tied to the strength of the brand, which in the NFL is enhanced by success.
July 29th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
Javier. I don’t blame Penn. He’s doing exactly the right thing. And I don’t blame Dominick either- So is He! The reason JimBuc request Penn’s recent comments to be printed, is that Penn understands this is bussiness, and so do the Bucs. We fans believe there is a lot ofvanimosity between Penn and the Bucs- there isn’t! This is normal, day to day proceedings. They both know what and why the other is doing what they’re doing. It’s the negotiation dance! Neither hates the other, both are just leveraging for the best deal fir their side. Both know Penn will Play. Both know Dominick will Pay! Just tugboat war to see how much! Another day at the shop!
July 29th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
@JimBuc, “Penn has almost no leverage…”
Penn doesn’t really need any leverage with his situation. He can sit out until the day before the season opener and still get paid his full contract — that’s nearly 2 extra month of rest/vacation (although I’m sure he’s working out). The only thing the Bucs can do is withdraw the tender offer, which would free Penn up to sign with anyone. When he shows up, he’ll play. I don’t see Dotson being that good that fast.
It’s pretty obvious the Bucs don’t view Penn as a long-term answer, so why should Penn bust his butt for them? He’s a proven player and he’ll get enough playing time this year to get a decent contract from another team in free agency.
July 29th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
wow you totally flipped my perspective on this in 3 minutes
July 29th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Yes, he could sit out until the first game and still gain the monies that are currently on the table. But he will probably be running with the two’s for a week or two while he tries to get back into football condition. That would give Dotson not only all of OTA’s and Training Camp to prove himself, but a couple of real NFL game starts. Penn may find it difficult to regain his starting status.
How will that work out for him next year when he is able to hit UFA status? Will other teams be lining up to bid on him? With his weight issues, holding out and then losing his starting position, pretty slippery slope if you ask me.
July 29th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Whether you are a player in the NFL or hard at work in every day life; there is always someone looking for your job. The best way to keep your job is #1 show up for work (on time); #2 be better than everyone else looking to take your job. If you can do those two simple things then sooner or later you’ll get paid.
July 29th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
He should fall in line with the rest of the RFA Bucs. I agree with 76, he is taking a big gamble. He needs as many games as he can get to up his stats. Who knows, one of the young guys may surprise you, Penn sure as hell did. No one thought he would make a difference when TB picked him up from the Vikes practice squad. You can negotiate a contract and still show up for work, it is a sign of good faith.
Joe keeps proving to you guys that the Glazers have spent money, even if it is on players you disagree with…they still spent the cash. No RFA in TB is going to get an extension this year. I think this may be how the Bucs have always opperated under the Glazers anyway.
July 29th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Spirit of ’76 wrote that “Penn is lucky to be starting in the NFL.” And some of you clowns agreed. Sickening.
As an experienced old-timer, Mr. 76, you should know that’s ludicrous.
Penn has started 44 consecutive games. That’s 44. There’s no luck there. And top to bottom has been acknowledged as a strong player, who at 27 should get better. BETTER.
He’s a good player, otherwise your beloved genius Mark Dominik wouldn’t have slapped a 1st and 3rd round tender on him. Trueblood had a second round tender (no takers).
He should get paid because it’s smart business. If the Bucs are all about the future, they won’t play games at LT. …At this rate, Penn will walk in late, have a good second half after working out the kinks, and then say goodbye and F U in free agency.
Get a grip. These cheapass owners are killing us.
July 29th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
The Bucs are all about the future.
Their financial future.
July 29th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Eric, a little late and a little weak! From you, I expect better! Any of the boneheads can ( and did!) throw the cheap line out there. Put a little effort in it, and give me something I really gotta work at to correct!
July 29th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
BucnJim- yup, that’s how we have ta do it! Asking your boss for a raise is always uncomfortable. Asking him for a raise in front of the entire nation has really gotta suck! But it’ll work out. Penn is a good tackle. I think he is better suited for RT, where I thibk he would absolutely dominate! Time will tell! But that OL – Dotson, Vincent,Faine,Joseph,Penn- would be the strongest and most atheletic one we could field. And meybe the best OL in Buc History! All depends on if Dotson can turn potential into production. Even if he struggles a bit this year, his possibilities might warrant letting him play! The guy has skillz!
July 29th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
But man, do we miss Sears! That guy should have been an anchor on that line for years. That one is gonna hurt for a while
July 29th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Capt.Tim,
Your right, it’s the calm before the storm.
A good dream press conference on Sat. ought to get me into a prolonged outburst of bitter, outspoken denunciation (AKA tirade).
The Penn thing aint all that enchanting.
July 29th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
One more! If anyone out there gets a paycheck from a business, that isn’t all about saving money and making money, would you please. Let me know what it is! The rest of the business world puts alot of pressure on everyone about money, so this business that just throws money around, and is never”cheap”, would sure lower my stress levels! Thanks!
July 29th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Yeah, Eric, don’t have much enthusiasm about it either! But my post at the top was a good one, right,right!
July 29th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
Well I agree with Capt on this one. 🙂
Signing Penn long term, then if not this year, moving him to RT over the course of the year in practice and next season, would be a strong move.
I think Penn would make a nice RT.
Of course I’d like to see what Steve White thinks about this move.
If the Bucs signed him to a 5 year deal, played him at LT this season, drafted a LT in the draft, and then moved him to RT in 2011.
Would that be a good move? Or can Penn play RT?
In theory it sounds like a good idea.
July 29th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Yes! 10 % raises in salary each year and 5% raise in revenue would make me very very nervous. Easy solution would be a rookie salary cap! Pay to play not get paid and try to make a fat cat productive.
July 29th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
They say playing the other side of the line is like trying to throw a football with your opposite hand. Not as easy as it sounds!
July 29th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
why do people think Penn would be a better RT? he is a far better pass blocker than run blocker…shown by the exit of Sears and presence of Zuttah
July 29th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
CaptTim, I agree, about the Sears statements 100%. I felt that way last year, when all that mystery started brewing about him.
July 29th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
Louie — You are leaving out a big part of the equation. Your’re not alone, many fail to consider this:
PENN WILL NOT ONLY PLAY— HE WILL PLAY WELL!
If Penn screws the Bucs over (by sitting out too long), then his ONLY option is to leave. If he were going to leave he would not sit out long, he would get in and play because he would be audtioning for other teams. That is the part that everyone (except the Bucs) seem to be missing. Penn’s interest lies in not just playing this year (i.e. showing up out of shape game 1 or holding out 10 games) BUT in actually playing his very best. He is auditioning for a job with, and while some here might inflate his value, in the league he is considered nothing more than middle of the road. Worse that that (for him), unless he plays and plays well the last thought of Penn around the league will be:
MEDIOCRE LEFT TACKLE
PLAYED ON BAD TEAM
PLAYED OK, BUT NOT GREAT
and
GAINED 40 LBS . . . . in a CONTRACT YEAR!!!!
Whether he intends to play with the Bucs or another team, Penn has a lot of work to do to rehab his image — if he wants that BIG CONTRACT. In fact, the place where he probably has the least rehabbing to do is where? . . . WITH THE BUCS, because the Bucs no more about his entire body of wrok than anyone else.
So, Penn does not want to burn the Bucs AND he wants to not just play, but play well. This is why the Bucs KNOW (unlike many here) that Penn will show up in shape and ready to play and will probably play very well. This is why Penn has almost ZERO leverage. He has to play and play well. It’s in his own self-interest to do so.
(By the way, look for a CAREER year from Ruud for the same reason.)
July 29th, 2010 at 4:09 pm
JImbuc, on the other hand, seems completely enthralled.
July 29th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
Ac3- the article directly above states( Rather clearly!) ” as a team, the Bucs had the highest yards per carry when they ran off left tackle” ” showing that Penn is an underrated run blocker and an average pass blocker”. Also, Penn did play some right tackle in college. While he is a good Left tackle, I think he would be a mauling monster at Right tackle. He actually is much more beast than ballerina. And yeah Eric, JimBuc is enthralled by all things Buccaneer! I find it to be an endearing quality! Wish I could find some employees with his relentlessness!
July 29th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
@JimBuc What about the Franchise tag possibility next year.
July 29th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
“But where it gets ugly is allowing quarterback pressures, allowing quarterback hits, and penalties. Of the 75 offensive tackles listed, Penn was ranked 66th, 63rd, and 67th respectively.”
“I keep hearing that we’re going to get Freeman killed. Can Dotson or Xavier Fulton do much worse than 63rd on allowing quarterback hits?”
Have I ever heard a stupider question than that??!?!! If you watch NFL Network or ESPN, they all say that Penn is a very good left tackle. The NFL Network has former coaches and players on it, so I’m sure they know what they’re talking about. Does this guy forget about the O cordinator fiasco, learning a playbook on during the season, and having no stability on the team and how it affected this team??!!! Everybody talks about how so many of our players performed poorly, but really it was due to the numerous circumstances and this mess of an organization.
“With outstanding left tackle prospects Gabe Carimi (Wisconsin) and Anthony Castonzo (Boston College) lurking in the April 2011 draft, and the potential for the Bucs to be drafting in the top 10, Penn may want to re-think his stance.”
So what about 2010?!?!?! Does this season even matter anymore?!?! More importantly Freeman’s future? I’m sick of this losing “we’ve got next year” attitude. That’s what it seems like this team has gotten into now. No urgency or willingness to even win. Everyone is just assuming we’re going to be in the top 10, so we might as well just lose more games! Also, Freeman will be in his 3RD season in 2011, and he doesn’t an unproven “$50 million” rookie LT protecting his left side! It’s a fact. If Penn doesn’t play, we’re screwed. Period!!
And that’s another thing, how can the Bucs not give Penn even “small” contract after 3 seasons of him being a strength on our line and proving himself??? And they’re probably gonna pay their rookie DT $40 or $50 million?!?! Nothing against McCoy, but he hasn’t proven himself. Penn has.
July 29th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
topdoggie — exactly
Patrick – is there any chance, aside from Penn being crazy, that Penn does not play? Just think for a second about what Penn loses by not playing.
I am only making this exagerated statment to illustarte the point, but think about this:
If Penn does not play the Bucs have all kinds of options. Younger player plays, find someone off junkheap, keep a TE on that side all the time. Keep RB in to help against end. None of those are great options, but the point is that one player is JUST ONE PLAYER. In this case, a decent player, but not great. This is a team sport though. The Bucs adjust in a year when expectations are low anyway.
Now look at the other side of the coin. If Penn does not play, what happens to Penn.? Well if he sits all the way through he loses $3+ million (more than he has made in his career, maybe?) and a year toward free agency. That’s the big one, he goes backwards. Mission NOT accomplished
If he sits for ten, plays for six. He loses about $2 million and probably does not show enough for anyone to give him the long-term deal he wants. He accomplishes nothing once again.
If he shows up out of shape at game 1. He gets his money but probably burns a bridge with the Bucs, he may get injured in his return, etc. At a minimum he does not play well for part of the season, which screw him for his long-term deal from the Bucs or anyone else
Try to think af a “no play” scenario that ends up with Penn getting his long-term deal. There isn’t one (other than some made up unrealistic crap)
July 29th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
I’m sorry I didn’t read it, looked real long, and I can’t stomach much more of the Penn saga. I’m sure I have heard it all before, a couple hundred times. I’m ready for some football.
July 29th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Patrick,
You don’t understand man.
2010 is only the gateway to the dream’s dynasty and the ten year run of always above 9 wins and SuperBowl contention. A mere Division Title will be an embarrassment and a winning season a disgrace.
The left tackle position is merely a blip on the radar. Dom will exercise his genius at some point in the future and select a Hall of Famer in the 6th round of the draft.
You are supposes to be enjoying the growth. The last, and I mean last, thing the bucs want you to do is pay any attention to is the win/loss record in 2009 or 2010. It is completely irrelevant to the future domination.
July 29th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
So according to Steve Campbell , Penn sucks .
This will come as a huge relief to Josh Freeman as he lays on the field with a broken back next season…
July 29th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
“eric Says:
July 29th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Patrick,
You don’t understand man.
2010 is only the gateway to the dream’s dynasty and the ten year run of always above 9 wins and SuperBowl contention. A mere Division Title will be an embarrassment and a winning season a disgrace”
Yes ! 2025 is going to be a great year for our Bucs !!! Damn Gruden and his “win now” philisophy. When we see how dominant these bucs are in 2025 , we will all know that the Dream was right , and Gruden was just an impatient jerk !!
July 29th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
man, there are a lot of drama queens on here.
Penn will play.
He has to prove it. JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RFA.
I wouldn’t be shocked if he’s there tomorrow.
July 29th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Right on cue, the haters run in. Don’t read the article. Don’t read a single post beneath the article . Start crying ” the sky is falling” and running around in circles! Clueless. Within two post they’ll be crying that ” thus wouldn’t happen if Our love Chucky was here!” then comes” the Glazers are Idiots” then Raheem can’t coach” then ” hire Cowher, he’s a great coach- plus his chin is Sexy!”. Want to build a team based on puppy love. Compared to these guys and their undying crushes, JimBuc is a casual poster! I knew we couldn’t get thru one post without the chuckettes singing their same sad song! Well, we tried anyway!
July 29th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Oops, sorry. Didn’t see it, but Mushforbrains had already started crying his love song ta chucky! At least the chuckettes are predictable. Still wish you guys would find a ” man love” website ta cry on, instead of using a football site as romance post!
July 29th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
That’s good stuff Capt.That week you took off turned you into the enlightened one.If Mccoy signs today,I will bow in your presence.If not,still great reading from a true Buc fan.
July 29th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
You see Louie, I’m not a bad person. I’m just forced into bad responses. Meybe I’m old fashioned, but I can only take so much posted manlove before I have to respond with the rapier retort
July 29th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
I can’t believe this thread is still going. Sobo called me out so I’ll try and explain myself with a bit better detail. Although I think that Capt. Tim & JimBuc have similar views.
You stated “Spirit of ‘76 wrote that “Penn is lucky to be starting in the NFL.” And some of you clowns agreed. Sickening.
As an experienced old-timer, Mr. 76, you should know that’s ludicrous.
Penn has started 44 consecutive games. That’s 44. There’s no luck there. And top to bottom has been acknowledged as a strong player, who at 27 should get better. BETTER.”
Penn was a back up that filled in for Luke Pettigout in ’07. He held his own, nothing fantastic. I remember watching a Packer DE turn into Gumby a couple of times one game. And the slo-mo replays were awesome…..
In 2008 he looked better but that was the mirage. He was next to Sears and Sears was a monster.
Last year he was exposed because Zuttah is no where near where Sears was and quite possibly will never be. In defense of Zuttah, he played better in ‘o8 filling in for Joseph in part because he played on the strong side. And last year Penn gained 40 lbs DURING the season. Whoops!
He has played in 44 games because he was serviceable and under contract. With the new regime going young, the O-line was not the most pressing issue to draft. That is why he is still there.
I will give you one back though, I stated he is lucky to be starting at tackle in the NFL. I meant to say starting LT. I agree with quite a few that he would make an above average RT.
July 29th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Radio Mushmouth-Penn’s lucky he didn’t have a broken back last year with a 370 lb slob playing LT.
What part of the stats did you miss? Do you think they were made up?
July 29th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Typo…I meant Freeman was lucky he didn’t have a broken back last year.
July 29th, 2010 at 7:46 pm
Dam I wish Sear would have worked out he had so much potential. What a shame. He would have made the LT position so much easier. Any chance they will eventially bring him back. I will share my prozac with him.
Captin Tim are you actually a Captain I spend five years captaining a commercial longliner.
July 29th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Penn , if you are reading this, hold man……. hold out on these penny pinching owners. Penn YOU GOT LEVERAGE BUDDY!
July 29th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
Javier — read the paer once and a while:
“The reality is Penn can be annoyed, but he can’t do anything about it this year. As a restricted free agent, he simply does not have the leverage.
Look at it this way:
Marcus McNeill is a more highly regarded left tackle in San Diego. His team is a legitimate Super Bowl contender. And he’s protecting Philip Rivers’ backside. Yet the Chargers offered him the same $3.168 million tender.
McNeill is threatening to hold out past midseason, and the Chargers have already said they are planning to go forward without him. That’s not going to do San Diego much good in the standings, and it won’t help McNeill get a new contract.
The same goes for Penn.
He should have been an unrestricted free agent this season, but the rules got pulled out from under him. Pouting and missing time is not going to make him more attractive. The only way Penn is going to hit it rich is if he plays his butt off in 2010.
Then he can hit free agency and become a rich man.
Just a year later than he wanted.”
July 29th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
JImbuc,
Since Mcneil and Jackson seem destined to hold out in the regular season, why wouldn’t Penn do the same?
And I am sure you saw the huge Gates contract.
July 29th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
It’s painfully obvious which guys on here actually know how to watch film and evaluate football players and which guys just go along with whatever the papers say. The average fan has absolutely no idea what they’re looking at when trying to evaluate offensive lineman especially. Penn’s average, nothing more and nothing less. He can be replaced if he wants to play this game.
Those stats that Steve Campbell posted don’t lie, and irregardless of whether or not he had an immobile QB behind him or whether Zuttah was less of a guard than what Sears was doesn’t matter. Those stats are based off of the man that Penn was assigned to on any given play and they reflect only on him.
Penn isn’t a bad guy or a bad football player but like anybody else in his position he wants to cash in and he feels like he’s put in his time and feels like it’s his turn. The problem is that his agent and himself evidentally think he’s a top 10 tackle which he isn’t and Dominik rightfully isn’t going to break the bank on him, especially now that Penn has backed him into a corner. Signing Penn to a big contract at this point will only send a ripple effect through the locker room that all you have to do is stay home and you’ll get your money. I would guess that Ruud and Joseph will get new deals before Penn does basically because they’ve actually showed up and put in the work. If Penn want’s a huge contract he can wait till next year and then give Al Davis a call, he likes to go overboard for mediocre talent.
July 29th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
Mr. Freeman,
Take my advice and move to a non-extradition country.
Not only do they fail to get you any experienced wide-outs worth squat, but the left tackle position sucks whether Penn plays or not!
Hey Dom, you are the worst GM in the league!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 29th, 2010 at 10:35 pm
eric — McNeil, Gates and Penn. Which name does not belong in this sentence?
July 29th, 2010 at 11:21 pm
Bucs, Falcons, Saints, Panthers
Which team does not belong in that sentence?
But kidding aside, Mcneil has more juice than Penn and, therefore, can sit out 10 regular season games?
Just clarifying because your “bucs can move on too” remark makes it seem like you think he might hold out, contrary to your previous guarrantees and assertions.
July 30th, 2010 at 7:17 am
It is not true that Gates got a new contract ….it can’t be true !!!!
JimBuc told us no one is allowed to spend any money until the new CBA!!
How is this possible , Eric ??????
July 30th, 2010 at 7:24 am
Stats are for losers.
Anyone who has played the game will tell you Penn is a solid LT. I’ve heard Steve White say it , I’ve heard Ian Beckles say it , etc.
What those stats fail to factor in is that EVERYONE’s sack numbers go up when Leftwich is playing , and it also fails to factor opponents played. Penn faced some of the best pass rushers in the league last year- and a few of them TWICE ( Jon Abraham, Will Smith , Julius Peppers) just to name those three…. Being middle of the pack after last season really means you are in the top third .
Funny how when arguing with the Kool-aid drinkers, the argument always turns into justifying management at the expense of trashing GOOD players. ( and we dont have many good players left to trash )
July 30th, 2010 at 7:58 am
It’s not just based on stats; it’s based on three years worth of games at left tackle. 2008 Penn was ranked 59th out of all NFL Lineman. This stat (mush thinks stats are for losers) is based on sacks (8.5 given up) and hits taken, pressures, and penalty’s. Now this article on his 2009 performance has him giving up 5 sacks and has him ranked aprox. 65th out of all offensive lineman. Let’s compare that to McNeil; ZERO sacks in 2009, Top 5 in every other catagory. There are 10 LT’s who gave up 2 or less sacks last year. I’ll take McNeil all day every day! As far as contracts go; Gates is an extrension given to a pro bowl player.
July 30th, 2010 at 8:53 am
MushFace — two sure signs that you are weak.
#1 — Exaggerating the statments made by those whom you disagree with:
“JimBuc told us no one is allowed to spend any money until the new CBA!!”
Please go back through any thread on this site and find this quote. I never said any such thing and you know that. So find the quote or go back in your hole.
#2 — Claiming “Stats are for losers” when confronted with statistics that are counter to your position or trying to explain away statistics that are counter to your position:
“What those stats fail to factor in is that EVERYONE’s sack numbers go up when Leftwich is playing , and it also fails to factor opponents played.”
Ridiculous . . .
July 30th, 2010 at 9:07 am
Lol, poor mush, the harder he tries to get out of the hole, the deeper he gets. If he didn’t suck so bad,I’d kinda feel sorry for him! Isn’t there a buc post somewhere for, umm, the “learning impaired”. I’m sure Mush would be more comfortable with his own kind. I think we go a Lil too fast for him! Lol
July 30th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Jimbuc,
The way you twist and turn on this Penn thing are you sure you are not a contortionist for the circus?
July 30th, 2010 at 10:27 am
Eric,
No offense, but that is so funny coming from a Lawyer! I’ll bet you twisted a few yourself throughout the years.(and I’m not just talking about twisting a fatty either)
July 30th, 2010 at 10:46 am
Thank you for presenting a counter opinion to the Donald Penn situation.
Steve White has different ideas about Donald Penn. I think the average fan just wants Josh Freeman protected. QB Pressures can be just as bad as sacks, maybe even worse ?
A sack just causes loss of yardage, but we keep the ball . A QB Pressure may cause an interception.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
So let’s get this straight …you kool-aid drinkers are officially arguing that DOnald Penn sucks now, correct ??
July 30th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
Apparently JimBuc does not understand satire .
I am using hyperbole when speaking of your viewpoints in order to demonstrate thier absurdity.
Since you are obviously clueless as to what I’m doing to you , let me explain : Hyperbole is a figure of speech in which exceptional exaggeration is deliberately used for emphasis rather than deception.
In other words ; stop taking everything I say literally , numb-nuts. I’m simply making a mockery of you.