Ignoring Free Agents “Logicially” A Smart Move
April 28th, 2010
By ignoring big-named free agents, Mark Dominik was able to land defensive tackle Gerald McCoy.
Consider longtime Sports Illustrated NFL columnist Peter King to be in agreement with Bucs general manager Mark Dominik considering free agents. There weren’t that many good ones out there.
Dominik thought it would be better, long term, to stock up on draft picks. Meanwhile, many Bucs fans howled from the highest reaches, fingering Team Glazer for financially draining the Bucs dry thanks to their English kickball team.
King, as he wrote yesterday, believes Dominik was on target.
The Bucs refused to enter the restricted free-agent market — logically, I think, because to give up the third pick in the draft for most of the top RFAs who carried first-round or first- and third-round compensation is silly. But that puts a lot of pressure on the five top picks to come and play pretty big roles right away. It’s interesting that the focus will almost be as much on the 101st pick as on the third.
But King also noted a cautionary tale: As can be expected when depending too much on the draft, if the players don’t work out, Raheem the Dream is in hot water and perhaps, so too is Dominik.
April 28th, 2010 at 8:07 am
The bucs passed on getting several talented players for considerably less compensation than the third overall pic.
Thus, King’s “logical” conclusion is flawed.
April 28th, 2010 at 8:23 am
Not every free agent reguired compensation .
You can build through the draft and still pick up players that will help your team. That is what a team interested in winning will do.
Dunta Robinson , for example , could have improved our secondary much better than a rookie like Myron Lewis probably will.
Instead we let him go to our division rival , Falcons, without so much as a struggle or even an attempt.
Stop making excuses for this team’s stupidity.
April 28th, 2010 at 8:24 am
Peter King has no idea what he is talking about !!!!! I am going to stick with Eric, Radio Mushmouth, Thomas and all the other junior GMs here ate JBF!
April 28th, 2010 at 8:34 am
After this season , when I throw a huge party over the firing of Dumbinik and Radio , I will still invite you JimBuc.
You don’t want to miss out on the 2nd happiest day in team history.
April 28th, 2010 at 8:37 am
Radiomushmouth,
If Raheem is fired it will be because we have had another awful season.
Its nice to see that thats something “fans” like you are hoping for.
April 28th, 2010 at 8:40 am
I don’t see how you all keep saying Dom is dumb. To me, he’s the smartest man alive. His bosses came up to him and basically said, You have a job to do….either do it in a year or take as long as you want. Any one of us would do the same and take the longer time frame. Why would he put his future on the line with a handful of free agents for one year when he can slowly have a couple drafts to produce the desired result
April 28th, 2010 at 8:49 am
I love these informed opinions. I guess I will have to learn to live with it. No matter who said what, there are those among you, who seem to know more. I kinda like what the team is doing, although I do agree there may be some veterans out there that may be able to contribute for a short period of time. Oh wait, didn’t Jon Gruden think that way also? Forget it. I hope the Bucs hire Eric and mushmouth, they surely know more than anyone else currently on the payroll. Good luck fellas, when you all are in charge, we get to piss all over your legs like you are doing to the coaching staff now. Now get back to work!
April 28th, 2010 at 8:55 am
Hmmmmmmm lots of personal attacks, but can somebody refute my statement?
April 28th, 2010 at 8:57 am
If you go for free agents and they don’t pan out, then the coach and GM are still going to be in hot water anyway, just like when the Bucs signed some washed up retreads in the past that flamed out. At the end of the day, you have to do the best you can to evaluate talent, roll the dice, and hope and pray for the best.
April 28th, 2010 at 8:57 am
Eric — is your statement that the Bucs should have traded the 3rd overall because they could have gotten “several” players?
April 28th, 2010 at 8:59 am
Eric…We still would’ve had the third overall pick. Did you want us to sign free agents instead of picking third overall? Your statement is confusing. Didn’t we just have a FO that liked picking up aging FA’s? If its that important to you…become a Redskins fan
April 28th, 2010 at 9:02 am
Eric,
You are right the Bucs did pass on a couple of players for less.
Where were you when they said from the very begining that they wouldn’t be players in fre agency? Why is it a shock to you when they don’t sign these guys?
Geez man… get an Ipod or something that broken record you keep playing is getting old.
April 28th, 2010 at 9:05 am
@nick
Mr. King’s point is that the restricted free agents required draft pick compensation. He states that signing one of the good restricted free agents would have required giving up the number three overall selection.
Im merely stating that some of the RFA were ultimately traded for less than first round compensation, for example Brandon Marshall.
Thus, I question his premise that it was “logical” to not give up the number three pic because they could have aquired a number of players without givng up that selection.
Am I wrong?
April 28th, 2010 at 9:10 am
@d-money
Dom also stated he would not hesitiate to pull the trigger on a trade if it would help the team, and the Glazer boys stating “money will never be an issue”.
Based on the circumstances I question the veracity of both of those statements.
Therefore, accepting the Glazer boys at their word is not my cup of tea.
April 28th, 2010 at 9:24 am
All I know is we added 6 starters in the draft. Could we have gotten 6 starters in FA?
April 28th, 2010 at 9:27 am
@nick
And you know this how?
April 28th, 2010 at 9:30 am
Benn, Williams, Price, McCoy, Lewis, and the Punter…Your a GM / HC right? Wouldn’t you say these guys are starters?
April 28th, 2010 at 9:32 am
Eric,
HE said he wouldn’t hesitate to pull the trigger if HE felt it would help. Not if ERiC thought it would help the team.
Because he didn’t go after the players that you,The All Knowing All Seeing Mastermind of the NFL, wanted doesn’t mean that they were lying or prove that they are broke or whatever.
The truth is Marshall and Holmes both had considerable baggage and if they had gone after either of them then that would give me more reason to question them. Because that would have been contrary to what they have said they were going to be doing.
I think when they cut AB at that point the decision was made to address reciever in the draft. If they had traded for Holmes or Marshall then the might as well have kept Bryant.
April 28th, 2010 at 9:33 am
Let them play a real game and then we can determine if they are starters or not…
April 28th, 2010 at 9:45 am
@ kirk :
I’m quite sure Eric and I would do a better job than Dumbinik …
1st of all we wouldn’t have signed Byron Leftwich last season. Shall I go on ?? Do I even need to ?
@ D-money:
I’m not hoping the bucs will lose . I’ve simply admitted the fact that due to lack of talent, and a stupid coach, I already know we will lose. This is why I eagerly await the day these clowns are gone. It is on that day that we can have our team back.
April 28th, 2010 at 10:00 am
@d-money
I understand we disagree, and I respect your opinion on the matter.
But it appears we disagree as to the propriety of the Marshall/Holmes situation, not because there has been a blanket prohibition from management on trades. As I understand it the blanket prohibition only applied to FA signings. (Winslow is on the team for example, which was a great trade)
So, isnt it open season to question non-trades? Or possible trades vs. draft choices? Wouldn’t simply “going along with the plan” be a bit boring?
April 28th, 2010 at 10:01 am
@ Radio what makes u think Raheem is such a bad coach? this guy was like the janitor(joke) of the bucs then got handed the head coaching job. If you ask me he did one hell of a job for the lack of talent he has. Give this guy some time i believe Raheem The Dream will be one of the top coaches in the NFL in due time. I like what he did at the end of the year on D and how he got the players to stand behind him and not give up on the season. Your an idiot Radio your always bashing these guys for everything. what kind of fan are u? Let the season start before you start talkin shit about the team. I know there will be a big difference next season.
and BTW Dunta Robinson isnt all that great of a CB if he was the texans wouldnt have let him go they would have resigned him.. We need physical players on this D not pussies who are to weak and only care about getting paid than playing football
April 28th, 2010 at 10:06 am
Oh yea, Morris did such a great job last year! Only 3 wins, fired both coordinators, the farce of a QB competition, the Phillips LB failed experiment. Until Morris starts winning, he’s open to heavy critisizm.
April 28th, 2010 at 10:08 am
King is right that there were no RFA that would be worth giving up the 3rd overall, particulalry given the Bucs needs at DL. Pasing on the other FAs that Eric mentions comes down to two things that no one ever seems to discuss: (1) philosophy and (2) price.
Eric does not like it, but the Bucs have said that they are looking to build a core group of player through the draft. Marshall did not fit that philosophy because he would have cost two draft picks (isn’t that right?) So, no he did not cost the 3rd overall but he cost two seconds. So, he would have cost us Price and another premium player next year. In a division that features the running games of ATL and CAR, probably not good. Eric is stuck on the Gruden/Allen “win now” philosophy. You don’t give up two premium draft picks when you are where the Bucs are currently. Maybe you do down the road — when hopefully the core guys are only a few players away — but not now.
There’s another reason Marshall (and Holmes) do not fit. The Bucs are trying to build a young core group of players. If you bring in arguably the best FA WR avalable and you give up two seconds for him, he is the new king of the team. Same thing goes for a SB MVP because this team is so young. I am not sure that either one of those guys fit the mold of “team leader” that the Bucs are looking for, they are both plug-in guys. Disagree?
Ask yourself if either guy is the functional equivalent of Hardy Nickerson? Hardy Nickerson was the key FA that the Bucs brought in to help turn things around.
Or, ask yourself if you feel more comfortable with Marshall or Holmes as a “team leader” or McCoy and Freeman? There is more to a team then just plugging in the most talented player. If it was as simple as plugging in the most talented players (notwithstanding their other flaws) then they would not even play the games. Instead, they would just total up the value of the picks for each team and the one with the highest number would win.
April 28th, 2010 at 10:09 am
Guess who starts on this team? Well when all you’ve got on a team is young players and rookies, its not too hard to figure out. It’s these said rookies and/or young players that will end up on the field, whether they are starter caliber or not!
April 28th, 2010 at 10:13 am
@nick
Could be Mr. Nick. We shall see. Starting rookie wideouts makes me abit nervous though.
Amazes me how when anybody disagrees or is critical they are accused of “being a HC/GM” but those in agreement aren’t subjected to that remark.
Why is that? Isn’t an opinion an opinion?
April 28th, 2010 at 10:22 am
There’s an old saying, “you lose 1 game for every rookie you start”. So, starting all those rookies is a risky proposition. To back that up, the only rookie starter last year (Freeman) clearly cost us the Carolina game. He won other games, but he did almost single-handedly lose that game.
April 28th, 2010 at 10:23 am
louie your an idiot too.. the bucs had positions all over the roster last year that lacked talent… not even bill belichick could win much more games than raheem did with the talent he had.. you must be one of the gruden fans who cried a river after he got canned. he won with dungy’s team and never won again.. give this guy a chance.. yea he fired jags and jim bates but what if he didnt do that? maybe we would have won ZERO games.. the guy made a mistake when he hired them just like many first year coaches do.. but he did something that most coaches wont do and thats admit to your mistakes and make changes now not later.. learn something about football louie you obviously dont know much
April 28th, 2010 at 10:23 am
@JimBuc
You are right about “win now”, I do prefer it to “maybe win someday”. And I would surely prefer Mr. Gruden to accomplish that task, given his proven record. I do look forward to the ten year stretch of above 9 wins though. (LMAO)
Would it be fair to compare the production of the two second round selections and the fifth to Mr. Brandon Marshall and Holmes over say the next three seasons?
That will tell the tale won’t it?
April 28th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Man, you lovers are unbelievable! All you can do when you disagree with someone is call them names.
Gruden won 9 games the prior year, so what changed? I’ll tell you what changed: Morris was coaching and he an Dominik purged the team of some of their key leaders. So, the reason they lacked talent is because they did it to themselves.
By the way, I know for sure Beichick would have won more than 3 games if nothing else because he would not have had to fired both his coordinators.
April 28th, 2010 at 10:40 am
Funny how people think some other EXPERIENCED headcoach wouldn’t have won more games than Raheem did. I know for a fact, besides Gruden(proven year before) that Cowher, Shanahan, Bilichick, etc would have won more games, cause they wouldn’t have made the same assinine mistakes that Raheem made in the first place! Releasing veterans(BROOKS!!!), dump defensive scheme(Our bread and butter, named Tampa-2 for a reason), changed blocking scheme, qb fiasco, kicker fiasco, hire/fire BOTH coordinators, Phillips LB experiment, etc, etc, etc.
April 28th, 2010 at 10:44 am
I’m a big fan of “winning now”.
April 28th, 2010 at 11:16 am
Eric,
“Amazes me how when anybody disagrees or is critical they are accused of “being a HC/GM” but those in agreement aren’t subjected to that remark.”
It has something to do with the fact that you, RadioMM, Louie etc. disagree with EVERYTHING.
Its always negative. It comes across as though you arent really having an opinion on the matter just that you hate the coach and GM so much that you would rather the Bucs lose just to prove you right.
April 28th, 2010 at 11:26 am
Guys:
Nobody disagrees with King’s statement that we should have been very, very conservative with RESTRICTED FREE AGENTS!!!!!!!
That doesn’t mean completely not participate in UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENCY!!! And to make that statement before UFA begins. What if you have a good player who wants to play here, i.e., A Boldin who can be obtained for reasonable compensation – You should be open to that.
If this org wanted to win now this is what the philosohpy would be:
“We are going to obtain the best possible coaching talent and players and with every opportunity upgrade our roster all the while drafting as prudently as possible. We are determined to win now, 3-13 is not acceptable.” Instead this org has walled itself off of one vehicle for obtaining talent. Why? the only plausible explanation is the the top UFA’s are very expensive and are paid more than rookie first rounders (look at the Peppers for example)
This year there are technically no UFA’s until a CBA is reached. Yes, no CBA is a consideration for teams but the team’s who want to win use the uncertainty as a benefit for acquiring talent b/c if a CBA is reached and there is no stoppage you may be participating in a market with many fewer teams b/c some chose to assume that there is going to be a work stoppage and clammed up.
Dallas, Washington, NE, Chicago, NYJ, New Orleans are all not using the CBA as an excuse.
April 28th, 2010 at 11:33 am
@d-money
I see your point.
But, on this post i was only taking issue with Mr. King’s RFA conclusions.
I guess I cannot disagree with the issue that I see mostly negative things happening with the team. I’m guilty!
I did, however, for weeks strongly advocate the Marhall trade for the express purpose of helping our young QB, who I think is a great kid and prospect. I wouldn’t do that if I didn’t want him to have the best shot at success.
April 28th, 2010 at 11:46 am
Thomas is exactly right. The key sentence is the first sentence for King. The Bucs refused to enter the RESTRICTED free-agent market
King did not say unrestricted, he explicitly said restricted free agents. And you should remember the interview that King did with Joe. King said that they should go after free agents.
Everyone on this board would agree that the Bucs weren’t going to give up their first round pick for a restricted free agent. The headline should be “Ignoring Restricted Free Agents Logically A Smart Move”. I truly hate it when headlines don’t mesh with the article. I remember many times in college when I got ticked with editors, when they put a headline that didn’t go along with my article well.
And any coach would have had a better record than Rah’s 3-13. So many mistakes. So clueless. Rah is a good DC. I have my doubts on whether he will ever be a good head coach.
April 28th, 2010 at 11:54 am
@D-Money:
Nobody is hating just for the purpose of hating. the negativity started with 0-7 and then 3-13. It is my belief that every fan should be frustrated with that.
Next, those of us you call negative – became more disenfranchised when after 3-13 no management or coaching changes were made and the team publicly said we are not participating in free agancy (it is not like they are on the brink of the playoffs). This team is talent and leadership poor and rebuilding through the draft chas no moe guarantee of success than UFA.
April 28th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Even though are draft was great (one of the best ones in a while) you can’t expect every one of the players to contribute let alone right away. There were still many free agents available that could have helped our team win now instead of later. Picking up one or two young but established players in free agency could have helped our team a great deal, but that would require spending money which are owners don’t want to do…. You cannot be one of the lowest payrolls every year and expect to win games.
April 28th, 2010 at 12:20 pm
Ok, ill lay it on the line:
The bucs had a chance to get one of the top five wideouts in the game who is only 26 yoa, and a Super Bowl MVP.
IMO both were golden opportunites and would have immediately massively upgrade the team both in the short and long term.
Instead, we got a guy with two touchdowns last season and another who was suspended his entire Sophmore season and quit his Senior season(and then lied about it).
Others can have “pie in the sky” optimism, but I’m of the belief that the decision making in this regard totally sucks and is driven simply by the fact they didn’t wanna pony up the $ to pay the contracts.
Call me negative if you want, but those are my opinions.
You positive spinners are the delusional ones, because you want your team to do well. Commendable but not in line with reality. Your loyalty has made you unable to see the forest for the trees.
April 28th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Eric…..Speaking only for myself, your insight and comments speak well and your opinions, i’m sure, are not in the minority. What I dislike most about what you write, is not that whether you are, or not correct, you just take a personal slant on others that seem….mean? I like this team and only wish them well, but they don’t feed my family or pay my bills, therefore, I don’t give a damn who they hire. I must conclude, you are employed by an NFL franchise? You sit in on meetings with the Buccaneers and give them the benefit of your limitless knowledge? You seem to take an arrogant stance on all your opinions here. I appreciate your comments, but dislike that you attach personal shit to a damn game. The Buccaneer organization will ultimately do what they do. The team when win some and the team lose some. They will do what they do and you will still watch them, even if they don’t listen to you. Accept that fact. Keep expressing your opinion, many of us fought for that freedom.
April 28th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Eric — as I have posted here before, the fact that you are a Gruden fan (so am I) and that you think the rebuilding was unnecessary (this is where we part ways) colors all of your commentary. Fair enough, but it does not seem like you are even willing to acknowledge that the Bucs are rebuilding and have chosen to do so through the draft. If you don’t acknowledge that UNDENIABLE truth then every other discussion is moot. Again, no problem, just saying.
Also, I notice that you did not address the second half of my comment, which was that the Bucs would not want Marshall or Holmes because their status would dominate over a very young team and they are not the type of character guys you want leading a team. This is part of the same reason AB was probably let go. He was not part of the long-term solution, but he was part of the immediate problem. So, they let him go in favor of a probable 3rd round pick because they are thinking long-term, particularly with respect to Freeman’s development.
Again, no team sport is as simple as get the most talented guys and you win. This is why all star teams are routinely crushed by established teams
April 28th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Eric S:
Enough of your headline bitching! Joe truly hates it when someone with ZERO freaking clue,or concept of, journalism or copywriting bitches about something that is that isn’t there.
This headline is absolutely accurate and fits within space limitations.
If Joe’s not good enough for you, take your teenage girl whining elsewhere.
Maybe that fraud Reynolds can help you with your headline fetish?
April 28th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Thanks Joe..This is the best Buccaneer site available, bar none. Caybrews to you, Joe. Keep on truckin’.
April 28th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
The reason the have decided to rebuild thru the draft and not thru free agency and the draft is because they are CHEAP!!!!!! It is cheaper to build thru the draft… What our team needed was some est. young free agents and a very good draft… That would require the Glazers to spend money which they are not going to do since they are in debt up to there eye balls in Manchester United…
I agree with Eric… we could of gotten Homes for the same pick as we draft Williams with.. Homes is only 26 years old and he is an est. NFL wideout…
It comes down to money and our team is as cheap as it gets… It dose not take a rocket scientist to know what positions we need up grades on…
April 28th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Thomas, Thomas Thomas: Love this comment:
If this org wanted to win now this is what the philosohpy would be:
“We are going to obtain the best possible coaching talent and players and with every opportunity upgrade our roster all the while drafting as prudently as possible. We are determined to win now, 3-13 is not acceptable.” Instead this org has walled itself off of one vehicle for obtaining talent. Why? the only plausible explanation is the the top UFA’s are very expensive and are paid more than rookie first rounders (look at the Peppers for example)
That would be YOUR philosophy BUT it is exactly the opposite of the BUCS stated philosophy. JUst the fact that you included Peppers in your exampel show that you don get or don’t accept that basic fact. The team is where it is today because of the “WIN NOW” mentality you are espousing.
Also, can you or anyone else please produce a quote or a link where Dom said that the Bucs will not — absolutely, 100% — deal with any free agents? Pretty sure that he just said the value was in the draft given the CBA issue. In other words, we are not going to give up picks.
April 28th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
It all comes back to money… The reason we did not want free agents is because they cost MONEY…. More money than drafts picks… You can make your team younger by also signing YOUNG free agents…
April 28th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
RG — you need to do a little more research
April 28th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
What type of research are you referring????
April 28th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
@jimbuc
“does not seem like you are even willing to acknowledge that the Bucs are rebuilding and have chosen to do so through the draft.”
I agree this is the “plan” they have articulated to the public. Whether they are doing it because they are “true believers” in it is another matter.
As to marshall and holmes, I suppose they would dominate the team, as they would be the best two players on it. I think that is an undeniable truth.
Were there risks associated with both of them? Of course. Can an argument be made the character issues outweighs the talent, sure. I think Mr. Joe stated that as to Marshall.
But, what you fail to accept is that there are risks associated with counting on rookie wideout starters.
I think we can agree that Marshall is a great football player, and Holmes is a very good one. and both those guys are young.
We have no idea whether Benn and Williams will be even good players.
I guess i would take a risk on character rather than on talent. And in Wiliams case it is talent plus character concerns.
I find it hard to believe that if you took Raheem aside and gave him some truth serem, that he wouldnt prefer to have Brandon Marshall and Holmes on his team rather than Benn and Williams.
April 28th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
RG, Any, cause Jimbuc does none!
April 28th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
I would agree with Eric on that.. With Homes and Marshall you already know that they have a great amount of talent and that they can both produce. Just imagine the coverage nightmare they would bring to def. being on the same team.. With two rookies wide outs you have no idea if they are going to pan out in the pros… We could get two more mike Claytons.
But the reason we elected to go with the two rookies wide outs is because they way cheaper than Homes and Marshall…. No one would rather have benn and williams over homes and marshall if money wasnt part of the equation.
April 28th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
RG — The best the Bucs could have done in fee agency to improve their pass rush was to get Peppers right? Peppers signed a $42 mil guarantee.
The Bucs will spend close to that signing McCoy BUT McCoy is (I think) 22 or 23 where Pepers is 30, right? You can actually say — with a straight face — that the Bucs should have signed Peppers over drafting McCoy? Seriously? That is what got us into this mess. Even with Peppers, were the Bucs going to win a SB this year? If not, then why would you spend $42 million guaranteed on a 30 year old when you could have TWO stud 22 or 23 year olds (McCoy and Price) for the same price?
Maybe you think Peppers is a “sure thing” because he is a verteran? If so, please explain Albert Haynesworth? How did that work out for the Redskins. Again, the Bucs got McCoy AND Price. Together they will pay both of the guys about the same as Peppers. Neither might have the same impact that Peppers MAY (see Albert Haynesworth) have THIS YEAR BUT the Bucs got TWO guys, both of whom should play for the next ten years.
Enough with the foolishness.
April 28th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Oar — you are too much of an idiot for me to respond too. Sorry.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Eric — you always leave one part out of your analysis. The Bucs would never say it — becasue of fans like you — but there goal is not to win it all THIS YEAR. There goal is to build a team that will be competitve for ten years. So, you don’t give up two 2nd round picks for Marshall because two second round picks are more valuable than Marshall — AT THIS POINT ON THE BUCS’ PATH.
How many picks did we give for Keyshawn Johnson? 2 first rounders right? BUT we gave those picks to NY in 2000 not in 1995. WE got a SB for it, but would we have if we had taken Key or someone like it in 1995? NO. How did we do after 2002 WITHOUT those first rounders?
That’s the simple point.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
I didnt want peppers… I am fine with the two dt picks.. Peppers is old….When did i ever mention peppers… He is old and a waste of money…
I would of taken homes, marshall, erine sims, or antonio cromartie… any one of those player would helped us..
Cromartie, sims and homes are were traded for 4th or 5th round picks.
All of those guys listed above could of started for us and are all young..
April 28th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Just a tad harsh aren’t you Joe? I believe this was my first time commenting on a headline. I could be wrong though.
If you were worried about space you could have easily had the headline as
Ignoring RFAs “Logically” A Smart Move. That meshes with what King said.
Joe, I do have a degree in Journalism from Auburn University. Currently I write movie reviews and articles for a website. Most of the articles that I write, I do the headline as well. I was just giving my opinion on the headline. Didn’t mean to rile you up.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Jimbuc
“There goal is to build a team that will be competitve for ten years”
How do you know that Benn and Williams will play longer than Marshall and Holmes?
Both of those guys only turned 26 yoa last month. They are both younger than Kellen Winslow. Is he not part of the rebuilding plan? They traded a second for him!
April 28th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
There were lost good free agents that were young… They could of helped our team now and into the future…
We just our cheap….Its that simple
April 28th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
****I ment to say “lots” instead of “lost’ ****
April 28th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
RG:
“It all comes back to money… The reason we did not want free agents is because they cost MONEY…. More money than drafts picks… ”
That is not true. A team can (and should) want premium draft picks BECAUSE they represent a much better VALUE that most free agents PARTICULARLY when you are at the place on the curve that the Bucs are.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
RG — There were lots of free agents that were young? There were not even lots of free agents period, right? The two that most seem to mention are Marshall and Holmes. They are both younger but also raise the issues discussed above.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
There were lots of young players we could of made moves for…Weather or not free agents of players with one yr left on their contract….
Williams also has issues..He quit on his team… Also got in trouble before that..
At least you know that Homes and Marshall have NFL talent…Real good NFL talent…
April 28th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
@Jimbuc:
Here is an article that indirectly addresses both RG’s and my points:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/349443-nfl-free-agency-tampa-bay-buccaneers-will-shop-at-the-dollar-store
The teams decision to forego tier 1 free agents is due to $.
And Jimbuc Glazer – we all know what the team’s philosophy is – it is to rebuild through the draft we know that they are SAYING that they want to go young – the question for debate is: Is this the most sensible way (based on history) to improve and if not why are they not pursuing this route?
Erick, Radio and myself believe that utilizing both the draft and FA (like just about all other successful teams) prudently is the way, and we reasonably believe that fair inferences can be drawn from available information that the reason is $. In other words, the Glazers want to get better and win, but their desire to obtain cost-certainty is priority over winning today. The best case for the Glazers is to spend very little on a coach and GM, have the lowest payroll in the NFL and still compete for a super-bowl – the problem is that is lightning in a bottle.
We are fans – not shareholders – we want super-bowls – not prudent financial decisions! I have never heard anything like you guys – coming off 3-13 I hear – “they have decided to rebuild through the draft, these are tough economic times, no CBA, small-market etc.” Those are all weak excuses.
Come-on jimbuc admit it – You are really Mark Dominiks mother.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
Eric — you are too funny because your response is always to speak in absolutes:
“How do you know that Benn and Williams will play longer than Marshall and Holmes? ”
We don’t but neither do we know that Marshall and Holmes would play longer than Benn and Williams, right? I guess odds are in favor of the draft picks because they are younger, right?
BUT — as you are well aware I suspect — youth is not the only issue. Everything is risk reward. The Bucs have many holes. They added to promising receivers with a third and fourth (I think) as opposed to two seconds and a fifth. (That means they give up PRICE — in a division against ATL and CHAR– and someone else that will be an impact player) Even you would have to agree that the risk is lower with the draft picks, right? You could even make an argument that the draft picks were more suited for our short term needs (i.e Price)
Throw in the issues I raised above (i.e. team not trying to win it all now, both FAs would dominate a young team with little veteran leadership etc.) and it should be easy to recognize — even if you disagree — why the Bucs went the way they did.
Again, you are a “win now” Gruden/Allen guy and this is the anti-Gruden/Allen era, for better or worse.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
Thomas — without even going any further, the answer to this question is YES:
“Is this the most sensible way (based on history) to improve and if not why are they not pursuing this route?”
The answer is YES. Every team in the NFL builds a core through the draft EXCEPT the Bucs who for that last few years drafted players that are no longer on the roster.
End of debate, right? I am going to assume that Dom knows more about the way to build a team than you and I even if you are not capable of seeing the answer by lloking at your own team. The Bucs won a Super Bowl in 2002 because of draft picks and free agents BUT they are never capable of being “pushed over the top” by free agents without Sapp, Brooks, Lynch, Barber etc. You understand that, right?
April 28th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
Actually Jimbuc
You are dead wrong – the career expectancy of a 3rd year pro-bowl player is greater than any draft pick. A vast majority of NFL draftees dont make it 3 years in the league due to injury, inability etc.
The odds are that most of the 10 players drafted will not be here to start year 4, but this is not like any other team – we are building for the future.
It must be nice to have the patience to stay positive w/ this leadership until 2012.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
@jimbuc
Nice response, although you left out why Winslow is part of the “plan”.
You are right about one thing.
It is very easy to recognize why they did what they did.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Jimbuc:
Most of the offense (Brad Johnson, Keyshawn, Mccardell, Oben Christy, Dilger, Pittman)and key contributors on D like Simeon Rice for the superbowl team were FA’s or trades.
Also, a coaching change was made.
The super bowl team is the best evidence against your position re build through the draft exclusively while keeping the wrong coach.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
Thomas:
“The best case for the Glazers is to spend very little on a coach and GM, have the lowest payroll in the NFL and still compete for a super-bowl – the problem is that is lightning in a bottle.”
Let’s see, the Glazer built a team (largely through the DRAFT) with Dungy and McKay. Then they added a bunch of free agents by trading pciks and huge salaries. They then hired Gruden for a $9 mill payment and a bunch more picks.
Why is it that you would think the Glazers think the the path to a SB is a cheap coach and GM and lowest payroll in the NFL? YOu think that even though they have the formula and have, in fact, executed in the past, that they have changed their mind? Seriously? Even though they are following the same patth right now? They are just ealrier in the path than you seem to realize. The only differerence between the the late 90s and now is that there is a CBA issue that makes FAs less attractive. But that is (hopefully) a temporary issue.
Again, I would challenge you Thomas (and the rest of your clan) to find a single link our quote from Dom or the Glazers that says that the BUCS absolutely refuse to sign free agents. That is not what they said. What they said was that the VALUE was currently to be found in the draft.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
Thomas — this is 1995 not 2000 — not sure why you cannot see that. You ust really be a “we were just a player or two away” guy. WOW
April 28th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
ERic — I am not sure I understand the point about KW? You think it was a bad deal or you think it was inconsitent with building through the draft?
April 28th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
@jimbuc
Inconsistent with building through the draft.
I think you are also off on the Dungy era. When he took over he did not do a veteran purge. He kept guys like Nickerson and Culpepper, Chidi around while he rebuilt the team.
Plus, he was hired in 96, went 6-10, then the 97 team went 10-6. so a bit different than the current plan of years of losing and using rookies only to build.
plus, Raheem aint no Tony Dungy.
April 28th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Eric — I guess KW is inconsistent with the plan, although you definitely see everything as more absolute than I do. So, to you if the Bucs are going to build through the draft that means they take no trades or free agents. I don’t see it that way.
You are right about Dungy. I guess it is a slight ot Wyche but I always think of that time as the Dungy era. There was no veterna purge because they did not have 9 veternas that were incapable of playing in the league anymore. Besides, the point that I was making (as you know) is that the Bucs “free agent” signing period was really later or closer to 2002. They never get to that period without first drafting Sapp, Brooks etc.
If we followed your stated plan of taking Marshall and we still equate the two eras, we never would have taken Brooks right? Because we would not have bene able to trade up to get him due to trading the pick. We also would not have taken Alstott. Were Brooks and Alstott instrumental to the Bucs success? Would Keyshawn Johnson have helped if we traded fro him in 1996? Probbaly, but would he be around until 2002? Unlikely.
April 28th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
JimBuc, Glad you didn’t respond to me., but at least your not lying about me again.
April 28th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
@jimbuc
Well if the current class is as good as 1995, I think they may be successful.
Pretty tall order my friend.
We shall see.
April 28th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
I did respond to you Oar, just look closer.
Funny thing is I said previously that you spew your hate on many platforms. The only thing you took issue with was my use of the word “many.” Thanks for acknowledging that you are a hate spewer, even if not on “many” platforms. 🙂
April 28th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
We shall see Eric. Start planning now to buy me a beer in 2017. 🙂
April 28th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
JimBuc, Are you serious? I took issue with that hater crap too! What do you think the “your not lying about me” part is about? Man, your memory SERVES YOU well!
April 28th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
Oar — your work speaks for itself. I have you all wrong. My apologies.
April 28th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
Can you or anyone really say that Sapp, Brooks, Lynch and Barber would have been the players that they were/are without Dungy, Gruden and Monte?
I believe that the answer would probably be “no.”
Even assuming that McCoy turns out to be very talented, I believe that Radio is incapable of getting the most out of him, and certainly he has proven incapable so far of making sound decisions (i.e. coordinators, use of challenge flag, speech etc)
April 28th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
BTW – Dungy, McKay and Gruden are all believers in the use of free agency in support of the draft- look it up.
April 28th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
@ jim buc
We still could have gotten Price and McCoy… We had two 2nd round picks… So we could have used the 2nd second round pick (the Benn pick) to get Marshall and some other pick 4th or 5th round pick to get homes… Pittsburgh was basically giving him away. Even with his off the field problems the jets got a YOUNG pro bowl wide out for a 5th pick… that’s a steal…. Benn and Williams might play slightly longer that Marshall and Homes because they are slight younger. But I still would rather have the Marshall and Homes combo…
What Thomas and others are saying is that we could add some key talent to our team through the draft AND free agency and been competitive this yr… Esp. with the schedule we have… No one is denying that you have to build a core thru the draft… We still could of drafted Price and McCoy… plus some of are other late rounders… But the reason we just decided to build thru the draft is because it is cheaper overall than signing draft picks and free agents…. Tampa Bay has money limitations.
April 28th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Thomas: this is called changing the debate and it is as much of an admission as someone like you would ever provide:
Can you or anyone really say that Sapp, Brooks, Lynch and Barber would have been the players that they were/are without Dungy, Gruden and Monte?
I believe that the answer would probably be “no.”
So you punted on the actual discussion and fell back to Morris=bad.
Thanks
April 28th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
RG — Price not there at 2b and if Pittsburgh was “almost giving him away” and almost no one took him, the only excpetion being a team on the cusp, what does that tell you?
April 28th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
RG — I already explained to you that drafting premium picks is not cheaper. Just read above.
Do you understand that this year due to the CBA most UFA were RFA? How do you get a RFA? By giving up picks.
You and many here seem to think of players only as their stats. For example, Marshall = x number of catches and x number of touchdowns and nothing more. In reality, Marshall = -2 2nd round picks and a leadership role on a young team and a guarateed contract going into a lockout.
If we are just going to say that the Bucs (or any team) should get a guy based solely on stats rather than circumstances than we are having a meaningless discussion aren’t we?
Anyone can say that the Bucs should take free agents, but in a year where their first priority is D-Line they could not have possibly done any better than they did, that includes taking Peppers. Maybe Peppers makes them more competitive this year but he is 30.
In a year when they need WRs, they could have done better for NEXT year BUT at what price? This year it would have been at the price of . . . Price (no pun intended) PLUS the price of next year’s second. As I pointed out to Eric, that is like saying that we get Sapp but not Brooks and not Allstott. Would that have been a good move then? So why would it be a good move now?
In that entire discussion, the only place where money comes in is Marshall’s contract, right? I don’t blame the Bucs for not wanting to give Marshall a big guaranteed contract heading into a potential lockout. You seem to. Fine. We disagree on that one point, but that does not chnage the fact that the Bucs have done the best thing for them, under the current circumstances once you get past the kind of mindless argument that FA=success. Tell that to the Redskins.
April 28th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
By the way Marshall went for one second round pick… so you could say he went for the same pick as benn….I like benn but i would take Marshall over him any day…. The only draft pick that cost lots of money is the first… Which i never said we should give that up…. but besides that signing 5 6 7th rounders is pretty cheap.. If off the field issues is your problem maybe you should read more about our players… and draft picks…
And i never said anything about peppers… I like our dline picks… peppers is old and cost to much… But marshall is worth the money and homes is def worth a 5th round pick
April 28th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
RG-
“The Denver Broncos have traded wide receiver Brandon Marshall to the Miami Dolphins for second-round draft picks in 2010 and 2011, the Broncos announced Wednesday”
sorry
April 28th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
I was referring to this years picks only… since we had two second rounds… And we could of gotten bolden for only 2nd rounder prob… And what about homes… he was only a 5th rounder…Is that two much for a super bowl mvp
April 28th, 2010 at 8:04 pm
RG– so if it is a 2nd next yera it does not matter? Silly. I will refer to my prior example. If the Bucs of 1995 make the trade that you are advocating for Marshall they don’t get Brooks or Alstott. Both those guys contributed for years. One if a first ballot hall of famer and face of the franchise.
If you believe — as you clearly do — that the goal is to win it all in 2010, then you make both of those trades and you don’t worry about the character issues and the guaranteed contract for Marshall with a looming lockout. However, if you view the team as needed to build a core of quality players, you never give up two 2nd round picks (Brooks and Alstott) and you don’t take a guy like Holmes (just like the other 30 teams in the NFL that didnt even look at him). Holmes went to the Jets right? Hmmmm . . . are the Jets just building a team or are they trying to win now. Are the Jets the Bucs of 1995 or the Bucs of 2001?
April 28th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Remember when we one the super bowl..We didnt just have drafted players.. We pull a good team from the draft and from trades and free agency. I am not saying win now and forget about later. Or for get about the draft..But making some off season moves along with the draft is a better strategy in my opinion.. We could gotten free agents on the D side of the ball without giving up any picks…
Which brings me back to our team being Fundamentally cheap. Yes sign marshall with a lock coming could be bad… But we will be signing mccoy and the rest of the picks with a lockout coming.
The jets are doing both.. building a team and wanting to win a super bowl…They drafted a rookie qb last year kinda like we did… They brought in young talent around him…. thru the draft and free agency. How do u know that giving up two second rounders equals brooks and Alstott… Thats really not that great of way to compare things…
Giving up a second round pick could also mean giving up a dexter jackson of 2008 or and aaron sears…
April 28th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
RG — This is an intersting discussion. I certainly respect your opinion. Just think you have some basic facts wrong. For example, the Jets are already there. Not sure why you don’t get that. It is an apples to oranges comparison.
Same thing with the free agent issue — The Bucs superbowl team added free agents, yes. But the key free agents were add the end after the draft helped turn things around from the awful Bucs. That is why I know that we don’t get Brooks or Alstott becasue those were the same picks that you would give up to Marshall. In 1995 we drafted Sapp and then moved up into the first to get Brooks (that is the first 2nd round pick you want to use on Marshall). In 1996 we used a 2nd round pick to take Alstott. That is the second Marshall pick. We did not take Keyshawn Johnson — our Marshall equivalent — until 2000. Thank goodness it resulted in a SB because the KJ free agent acquisition is one of the primary reasons we suck today. Didn’t we give up 2 first round picks. Throw in the Gruden picks and bad drafting and you have the current Bucs.
The Bucs today are following the same path that they followed in the mid to late 90s. The only reason there were no free agents signed (yet) this year was because most free agents were RFA that take picks. That did not happen in the late-90s.
I don’t know so I will ask — what FAs could the Bucs have had without picks? You say on the D side. We have already discussed Peppers.
April 28th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Dunta Robinson CB from the texans… Karlos Dansby… Det. gave up erine sims for a 5th rounder which to me is a steal since he is young and was taken 9th overall.
We could of also delt a RB since we have 3 of the to the chargers.. Early this yr they said they were willing to deal cromartie for a running back.
I get were the jets are… It was not long ago they sucked though… they made some key moves in the draft and made some key moves else were…
Its just hard for me to think our owners are not cheap… We are under the cap every yr.. most of the time we are way under the cap… Its simple bus. skills. they are in debt with ManU so they have cut back with the bucs..
The difference in the 90s was that we had a great head coach, The best def coach,, and the one of the top d line coachs… We dont have that any more…
We made the great decison to resign Jon Gruden then fire him so we have to pay him for 2 mores years instead investing in a true coach and leaving morris a d coor.
April 28th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Soem come ground RG — the Bucs should not have fire Gruden. They should have fired Allen and made RM the DC.
The Jets did a lot of player acquisition under Mangini so when Ryan took over they were already there. We shall see how it all plays out.
April 28th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
Yea i am glad we agree on that.. A lot people dont think about how him being on contract for two more yrs hurts us… Its like we are paying 6 million for coaching…and we went 3-13
April 28th, 2010 at 10:36 pm
that would be an interesting poll question:
For the 2010 season would you prefer:
Jon Gruden as head coach and Raheem Morris as DC
or
Raheem Morris as both head coach and DC
April 28th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
@jimbuc
Do you think they could have gotten JG to play nice during the build through the draft plan?
April 28th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
Eric:
I apologize for going after you today. I was out of line. Your comment was just bad timing.
Posters have been hounding Joe for — what they claim — as misleading headlines which irritates Joe normally. Joe would never pull such a stunt. Tease? Yes. Mislead? No! Just today Joe guesses he hit the proverbial boiling point.
Since you have a journalism degree I’m sure you know about copy editing and layout and design, in other words, space limitations.
The headline of the post had been carved down several times to fit in it’s alloted space. Joe wanted to get Peter King’s quote “logically” in there because Joe thought that was a key word and played with several different versions before finding one that fit.
You have been a loyal reader for some time and Joe truly appreciates it. Without guys like you, “Joe” wouldn’t be where the site is today. Joe sincerely apologizes.