Lot Of Changes To How Bucs Scout Players
April 18th, 2010
Will Bucs scouting director Dennis Hickey be able to redeem himself under Mark Dominik?
Joe reads this virtually every day and hears it a lot on local sports radio and it’s a fair question:
“Just how can things change if the same guys are in the Bucs front office who were responsible for the bad Dexter Jackson?”
It’s a fair question, but not quite accurate. Last month, Woody Cummings of the Tampa Tribune spoke at length about this during a segment of the JoeBucsFan.com Radio Network. Recently, he put fingers to the keyboard to type out what he told Joe.
While Bucs general manager Mark Dominik and scouting director are Bucs front office veterans, much has changed under them.
In fact, of the seven men who made up the Bucs’ college scouting staff in 2004, which was Allen’s first year as general manager, only three remain. That staff also is bigger now, having grown from seven members to 10.
And of the 10 college scouts who have spent the past year preparing reports for this year’s draft, three are just now finishing up their first year with the team.
The only members of the staff still around from the 2004 draft are regional scouts Frank Dorazio and Seth Turner and scouting director Dennis Hickey. But their approach to the job has been altered dramatically.
Dominik went on to explain to Cummings that much has changed in how information is gathered, studied and broken down.
In fact, one of Raheem the Dream’s first duties once the 2009 regular season was over was for to evaluate tape of potential Bucs draft choices with his staff. That was not done in previous years.
This only makes sense. The guys who will be coaching the players should have a say in the evaluation of the players. What was Chucky doing, ogling over tape of Brett Favre?
April 18th, 2010 at 8:24 am
UH OH Joe, hope you are wearing a hard hat. How dare you write an article that absolutely crushes some of the key talking points of the disgruntled masses. What do you mean the Bucs have hired more scouts? I thought the Glazers were broke? cheap? Madoff victims? Cutting all expenses?
What, Dominik has installed a new system? Preposterous!! I thought these guys were going into this critical draft with the same team of guys and the same system that missed on the past drafts (notwithstanding this year’s pick up of Freeman, Strougher, Miller etc). Joe, you’re really asking for it!!!!
So, maybe the Bucs are just doing exactly what the Glazers said they would do more than a year ago: building through the draft and building a team with character guys. Hmm, not sure where they got that idea from . . .
April 18th, 2010 at 8:49 am
Eric bashing in 3, 2, 1……Whine.
April 18th, 2010 at 9:37 am
@Jim @ Rob
Goodones!!!!!!
April 18th, 2010 at 9:56 am
With the Bucs draft record over the past 10 or so years, you will have to excuse the skepticism of the fanbase, JimBuc, toward the Bucs front office and its scouting department. The proof will be in the pudding. Lets see what they do next week and then we can begin the process of evaluating. I’m not ready to start patting anyone on the back just yet.
April 18th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Jake — the point of the article is that this is not the Bucs scouting department from “over the past 10 years or so,” but I suspect you understand that. Doesn’t that mean your evaluation should start without the skepticism born of past production? Wouldn’t that be fair? No one siggesting that you or anyone else pat anyone on the back, but rather to just simply drop the over-the-top negativity.
April 18th, 2010 at 10:33 am
Trust yet verify
April 18th, 2010 at 10:36 am
I’m fully aware of the point of the article JimBuc. Your throwing out a preemptive strike here about what you anticipate being posted. I’m telling you, what I believe to be a fair point of view from the fanbase. They don’t have a history of being successful in recent times drafting players. Lets wait to see what they do before passing judgement. However, you should not expect fans to ignore their past track record and be somewhat skeptical when some of the same evaluators are still presently…the evaluators. Your sarcasm towards fans who are somewhat skeptical is misplaced.
April 18th, 2010 at 10:43 am
Well it’s good to read that the Bucs have changed the way in which theyre evaluating talent. This would explain their lack of FA and heavy reliance on the upcoming draft.
The only problem with this approach is this – will Morris and Dominik be around to see the fruits of their labor? Let’s face it building is a 3-4 year process and unless the Bucs win AT LEAST 6 games Dominik & Rah-Rah are history.
April 18th, 2010 at 10:45 am
BREAKING NEWS:
This just in, we’ve traced the IP adress for JimBuc and found it traces back to One Buc Place.
Further investigation reveals his e-mail is: MDummy@Bucs.com
April 18th, 2010 at 11:42 am
Jake said:
“They don’t have a history of being successful in recent times drafting players. Lets wait to see what they do before passing judgement. However, you should not expect fans to ignore their past track record and be somewhat skeptical when some of the same evaluators are still presently…the evaluators.”
That is the point Jake. Same evaluators not there. Let me clear it up for you. Scouts evaluate players (many of the scouts have changed) but — this is the key point you seem to be missing — GM (and coach) pick the players, right? So, I am willing to be that there was not a single one of the OLD Bucs scouts that rated Dexter Jackson as a 2nd round pick. There may have been some that rated him as the third or fourth best option for a speed receiver/returner. So how did we end up taking him as a second rounder? Because Allen (Gruden clealry did not like him) chose to pick him that high to fill an immediate need. That is why he was fired. Same thing with Gaines Adams. I am sure many of the scouts rated Adams as the best of a weak class, but they did not decide to take him 4th overall. Allen (and Kiffin) made that decision. Why? To fill an immediate need. Again, this is why Allen and Gruden were fired.
Allen is not there anymore so the comment about the Bucs past picks makes no sense because there is no idication that the scouts cannot evaluate and even if there were, most are gone. Your argument is like saying that we are destined to have a goofy, trick-laden offense this year because Sam Wyche was once a coach or that we will have no ffoence this year becasue Dungy was once a coach. The decision maker is no longer there, so it is UNFAIR to be “somewhat skeptical” of current regime. the FAIR point of view would be to not pass judgment at all, right?
Finally, if you want to know why I launched a “PREEMPTIVE” Strike, as you call it, look no further than the stupid comment posted by Mr. Lucky, who is a HATER under any circumstances. Unfortunately, Mr. Lucky is not alone, as some of the other posters noted. So you call it a preemptive strike, I call it a response to all the inane and FALSE criticisim just for the sake a criticizing. That’s what it is right? I mean if one has a belief whose underpinning is ripped away, one might expect a chnage in the belief, right? Do you see that happening here? Me neither.
April 18th, 2010 at 11:43 am
Mr. Lucky — if your only response is to shoot the messenger, what does it say about you and your point of view?
April 18th, 2010 at 11:49 am
JimBuc, unless you have inside information about the inner operations of the Bucs draft room over the past 10 years, you cant sit there and absolve Dominik, Hickey or the other 2 mentioned scouts who are still on staff for having a hand in the poor draft records. JimBuc, I am starting to think you may in fact be an insider or get your W-2 each year from the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. You seem pretty confident about matters which aren’t necessarily public knowledge. Unless your employed by the Bucs and part of the front office staff, your in no position to say that the remaining staff members have no responsibility for past shortcomings in drafting and scouting players.
April 18th, 2010 at 11:52 am
@JimBuc
I have no idea what you are talking about. I posted 3 on this article:
The first is what I believe
The second post was in no way hateful
The third post was intended to be funny – unfotunately there are way too many old, dried up sourpuss’s like you around. Life is too short not to laugh, especially at silly things. Most of the posts that I do are intended that way because the status of the Bucs is currently a tragedy.
If anyone is a hater it would be people like you JimBuc and Gruss222. You both come across and overly serious stick-in-the-med hypocritical a-holes who like to complain about everyone and everything.
Criticism can be contructive and good but only if people accept it – you on the other hand are typical of those who can’t take criticism due to low self-esteem, self-lothing and hatred.
Maybe when Obama’s healthcare kicks in you can be the first to go get a funny bone transplant – right after you have them reverse that self-induced lobotomy that you’ve been displaying lately.
April 18th, 2010 at 11:56 am
@JimBuc wrote: “Mr. Lucky — if your only response is to shoot the messenger, what does it say about you and your point of view?”
It says my point was clearly expressed in post #2 and that post #3 was intended to be humorous – not hateful. Unfortunately I forget that you’re a crusty old curmedgeon who’s funny bone has shriveled up vanished.
April 18th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Jake:
This argument underscores your bias:
“Unless your employed by the Bucs and part of the front office staff, your in no position to say that the remaining staff members have no responsibility for past shortcomings in drafting and scouting players.”
So rather than the common sense I offered (A GM and coach make the picks and the scouts evaluate — hardly a controversial statement) you would only be swayed if I could conclusively prove the negative. In other words, you would not change your view of the Bucs until someone proved to you that “remaining staff members have no responsibility for past shortcomings in drafting and scouting players.” Get my point? Doesn’t that mean that you start froma negative point of view? Certainly you are not looking at things objectively, right?
Congratulations on joing Mr. Lucky with the “shoot the messenger” approach. I have no connection to the Bucs. Let me ask you and Mr. Lucky — why do you presume that anyone that offers a defense of the Bucs has to be an insider? I am guessing because you think that the Bucs are nothing but incompetent, right? Think about that for a second? Why would you feel the need to discount facts that are contrary to your way of thinking by suggesting that the facts offered are biased or skewed by an “insider?” That is the same type of thing people do when their conspiracy theories are shot down.
April 18th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Mr. Lucky. No need for me to respond to your drivel.
April 18th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
JimBuc, why do you believe you are dealing with facts. Unless you have inside knowledge you are dealing with opinion, just as I am. If I were certain the remaining staff members were responsible for past draft faux paux, I wouldn’t be skeptical but would be convinced of their incompetency. Because I am not certain, I am skeptical because, after all they were there in key roles so why should I presume that they bear no responsibility for the shortcomings. Nothing left to say on this subject JimBuc, you will sit here all day trying to get one up on everyone and frankly I have better ways to spend my time than waste it with someone whose sole purpose is to troll the message board, stir up controversy and then be endlessly argumentative on issues that neither you or I can conclusively prove or dissprove. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you have yours, I have mine. Respond if you must but I’m done beating the subject like a dead horse.
April 18th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Let’s take a poll: How many think that we took Gaines Adams as fourth overall in 2007 (over Levi Brown, LaRon Landry, Patrick Willis, Adrian Peterson, Marshawan Lynch etc.) because the Bucs southern region scout talked everyone at OBP into picking Adams?
On the other side, how many people think the Bucs took G. Adams fourt over all because Kiffin wanted him and Allen selected him as the best of a weak class?
How about this one:
Did the Bucs use a second round pick on DExter Jackson because some scout talked everyone into it (aided by DJ’s really fast combine time) or did the Bucs take him in the second round because the GM decided that we absolutely had to have a speed receiver to replace Galloway and act as a returned and the other guys and NINE wide receivers came off the board in the second round before our pick?
Which way does it go? Is it the scouts that oversold these guys or the GM that chose to take them when he did?
April 18th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Jake — obviously neither of us work for the Bucs but one can certainly draw reasonable conclusions from the reported facts. The reported facts are: the GM and coach are gone and that 70% of the scouts are different and that the Bucs brought in a consultant. I have provided you with an argument that that is significant because the GM and the coach make the picks as oppoesed to the scouts or at leats that the Bucs problems — see Dexter Jackson and Gaines Adams — largely related to verreaching as opposed to talent evalutaion. Your reponse is that you remain skeptical because THREE of ten SCOUTS remain and I guess because you discount the new GM and coach (even though they were responsible for Freeman, Miller, Stroguher etc.) and the new consultant. I got you. We differ. That is the point.
I guess you did not even want to touch the “Bucs are cheap” versus the expanded draft team issue. I think that one is best left to Eric. LOL.
April 18th, 2010 at 12:39 pm
Jake — to be fair, I do agree that there should be some mearure of skepticism given that Hickey remains and that the Bucs always struggled in later rounds (I put that on scouts). Just not sure it is fair to tie current regime to performance over last ten years.
April 18th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Where I reside in SW Ohio our NFL group does not even have a scouting dept. The asst’s do all that work. They tell the fans they get the same info on players that everyone in the league get. And they draft some really bad players and thugs. At least GM has had the desire to rework how they look at things….hard to do when there is no dept to rework. Quit the nit picking. The owners and the GM say they have reworked how the evaluate and as a result know what they want in this years draft.
April 18th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
@Jake – me thinks that JimBuc is a little too defensive which leads me to believe the we hit too close to home. Ok so he’s not Dominik but what about one of these “new scouts”.
I’m glad that the Bucs organization has brought in new people – their past history suggests that those responsible for the wretched draft classes of 2001-2008 needed to be replaced.
As for Rah-Rah and Dominik “getting it right” and knowing how to get the best players – I hope he’s right. However given the current record of signing Clayhands to such a large contract, pissing Penn off over his contract, signing and re-signing Crowell, letting Jimmy Wilkerson go, not using a 5th round pick for Santonio Holmes – well I’m not expecting miracles.
In other words – garbage in – garbage out.
April 18th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Jim Buc gets credit for a preemptive strike, most definitely. Never ever give your opponent the first punch. A proportionate response will almost always guarantee a loss. Hit em first, hit em hard, hit em repeatedly until you destroy their will to fight.
If a 5’th round pick is a throwaway, what is Sammy Stroughter???
Don’t forget Biggers showed much promise in camp before his injury.
April 18th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
The fact that the Dream is reviewing film and will have a larger input into the draft is supposed to be viewed as good news?
Ok, so Dom wasnt involved with previous drafting. That being the case what gives everyone such confidence that he is a good drafter? Where did he gain any experience in that area? I thought he passed himself off as a big expert.
Apparently we have two very inexperienced folks in charge of this stupendous, never before duplicated in history, 2010 buccaneer draft.
Oh yeah, thats gonna work great!
April 18th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
“Joe reads this virtually every day and hears it a lot on local sports radio and it’s a fair question:
“Just how can things change if the same guys are in the Bucs front office who were responsible for the bad Dexter Jackson?””
No offense Joe and not to sound like a Hater but don’t make it sound like you weren’t also into the fray on this also.. like you said it was a very fair question to ask but the wording you have currently placed makes it seems like in this post you weren’t also asking that question on a very consistent basis also and that other media sources were the one’s headlining the charge. Like I said I don’t mean to sound like a hater but you hold the other media outlets to high standards, I just think you should also be held to the same degree.. If you choose to disagree that is also fine
April 18th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
@Eric – Having Rah-Rah actually looking at tape and being more involved is something I find encouraging. Rah did work at Kansas St and having the HC more hands on can only be a benefit – if he has the talent (from his performance as DC I’ll give him the benefit of doubt)
As for Dominik – I personally don’t understand why the GM has much, if any, input in this process; it should be the coaches who analyze and select while the GM signs and delivers.
April 18th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Before we order the confetti for the ticker tape parade, can we at least get a winning season out of the current regime?
I feel bragging should occur AFTER actual accomplishments.
We got more scouts, rah is reviewing flm, we changed the way we did this or that.
Blah, blah, blah.
April 18th, 2010 at 7:46 pm
Eric if the current regime is a new regime and it is too early for the “ticker tape parade” isn’t also too early for the funeral? That is the point I was trying to make. Everyone is very willing to accept the negative, even in the face of clear positives. For example, Dominik is following a model that brought the Bucs a SB and yet everyone trashes him and the team for building through the draft and wanting character guys. Many say — yourself included — that the Bucs are broke or cheap, even when it is reported that they have grown the scouting staff and brought in a consultant. Every players passed is supposedly passed for financial reasons, as if the Bucs have no skill in assessing value of players. How did Haynesworth work out for the team that outbid us? How does the “broke or cheap” notion reconcile with making KW the highest paid TE or Faine the highest paid Center. Etc. . . .
Why is the negative so easily accepted and the positive so easily explained away?
April 18th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
@jimbuc
What are the clear positives?
Following the model? Merely stating your gonna build a Super Bowl team through the draft, like you say was done before, is a positive because it is said? You will find the “build through the draft” approach mentioned by GM’s all through the league. Detroit has been trying it about ten years.
All teams draft. Its nothing new or unique.
Both players you mentioned were signed when there was a salary floor, which mandates a certain amount of spending. Now the bucs are tied with KC for lowest in the league, once the mandate was lifted.
Id like to see some positives, translated onto the football field. Have you seen any of those?
IMO so far, the team is worse than when last season ended, and digressed in every category from 08. They have passed on some trade opportunities that were readily available, at positions of glaring weakness.
Either they are making correct decisions and the team will improve, or not.
IMO not. You believe they will.
The fact that we disagree doesnt make me negative and you positive. We just disagree about how a team should be built and by whom, the current prospects for success and the Glazers level of financial committment.
BTW I have given Dom credit where due, on the Winslow and the Adams trade.
Both were excellent moves.
April 18th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
@Eric – from one “hater” to another “hater”
Well said…
April 18th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
This is a pretty good draft class. It will be more difficult to find the Busts than it will be to find the Stars. No way Dominick can screw this up. Even if he takes McCoy and he is the Bustle in the Haystack, he will still get a few stars in the next 4 picks, in my extremely humble and meager opinion.
April 18th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
If we don’t get Suh, I hope they take Berry, but I still like Rolando McClain.
April 18th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
@BigMacAttack
Don’t underestimate the man! He is more than capable of screwing it up!
April 18th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Eric, a couple examples of the negative:
You think the Bucs are broke or cheap, so you see the salary situation as a product of broke or cheap and you use the broke or cheap to conjure up what? an “explanation” for facts to the contrary. The Bucs ONLY gave the contracts they did to KW and JF because they were forced to. Silly. What will the explanation be when they have to sign top draft picks after this draft? What’s the explanation for the expanded staff? The broke and cheap route would have been to keep Gru/Allen through 2011, but I think I have seen you refer to Dom and Morris as the “broke and cheap” option. You are negative because you see eeryhting in a negative light. You seem to see everything through a lens and it is a negative lens.
Another example is the passing on trades issue. Like it or not, the Buc ave said that they are focusing on building a foundation through the draft and with charater guys.You see to completely dicount that by saying that everyone in the league folows that plan. But Eric, you do not have to look that far away. Building through the draft with character guys was the McKay/Dungy model that led us to a SB. Here, it’s nothing more than what? A sign that the Bucs are “broke or cheap.”
But I think I see inyour comments the real problem. Your “08” comment is an indication that you probably thought the Bucs were only a few players away in 08. You are probably a Gruden fan and/or you think the rebuilding is unecessary. If that is the case, then I think I understand your point of view. I disagree (perhaps not surprsingly), but I understand. I think I also understand why you seem to think that everything is about finances.
Finally, you wenat to see improvements on the filed? When is the first game? You probably disagree (based on the “08” comment) but last year was clearly a “see what we have” year. What they had was not much. Even you must realize that falls on the prior regime. In fact, some of the key performers this year were the result of the current regime’s efforts. At least three solid draft picks (Freeman, Miller and Strougher). KW was a huge asset. They also had their share of misses (coaches and Clayton), but don’t they at least deserve a chance to get to this year before we start talking about improvment on the field? Like I said, I agree that we should not start the “ticker tape parade,” but neither should we start the funeral procession.
I guess it all depends on where you start.
April 18th, 2010 at 10:29 pm
I may be positive, but I am the worst typist on the planet!