“A 6-To-8 Win Team, And I’m Stretching On The 8”
October 8th, 2019
A former Buccaneers star sees a talented Tampa Bay roster missing a critical piece and impressive depth.
And give the guy credit, he said the same thing two weeks ago and was on the money.
Joe’s talking about retired receiver and blocking icon Michael Clayton.
Clayton fingered Vernon Hargreaves after Week 3 as being a weak link and a guy who will be “picked on” through the season because he absolutely can’t handle the top receivers in the game.
Fast forward to the Week 5 mess against the Saints and Clayton told his WDAE-AM audience in a postgame show that coaches have seen enough.
“Kind of like the final straw for Bruce Arians and Todd Bowles seeing the deficiencies in the secondary,” Clayton said, adding that a lockdown cornerback likely is the “the difference between a good [Bucs] team and a great team.”
Tampa Bay is “a 6-to-8-win team and I’m stretching on the 8,” said Clayton, who claims the Bucs have lots of talent but not enough to win when their best players don’t play well.
Sadly, in a passing league, you must defend the pass.
October 8th, 2019 at 10:38 am
So when are you going to include quotes from the “Star” that you referenced?
October 8th, 2019 at 10:43 am
I say we roll with Davis and Smith as our starting CB with Hargreaves in the slot. Smith showed potential in camp before the suspension.
October 8th, 2019 at 10:48 am
still hold to 6-10. And says a lot about this guy who said it was fixed to begin with. Are we still on the same track of not being able to develop defensive backs? Or just don’t know what to look for to begin with?
October 8th, 2019 at 10:48 am
buc15 Says:
October 8th, 2019 at 10:43 am
I say we roll with Davis and Smith as our starting CB with Hargreaves in the slot. Smith showed potential in camp before the suspension.
Exactly…..get Ryan Smith on the field and MJ Stewart off……
October 8th, 2019 at 10:48 am
What has been the constant in the secondary the last 4 years?
October 8th, 2019 at 10:50 am
I am so depressed I don’t even feel like commenting …Hugh Culverhouse …”whatevahhhh”
October 8th, 2019 at 10:58 am
813 will come on here and defend his boy toy to the end even though hes a below average db. And everyone but him can see it
October 8th, 2019 at 11:03 am
I have to agree with Michael Clayton, VH3 is NOT a shutdown corner and is better suited for the slot. Not sure why we dont try Jameel Dean there. The guy has elite speed and is healthy again. He’s missed alot of practce but it seems in the preseason he made some really good plays. He may not be the answer but if he stays healthy his size and speed and experience at Auburn against top flight collegiate talent makes me hope he starts Sunday against Carolina. Its not like he has people in front of him playing well.
October 8th, 2019 at 11:05 am
said Clayton, who claims the Bucs have lots of talent but not enough to win when their best players don’t play well. – True for every team
Like Coach says, it comes down to last 5 minutes of most games and Saints played better on Sunday. Again, it’s 1 game , chicken littles.
October 8th, 2019 at 11:10 am
a 3-13 season would not shock nor be a surprise to me (hopefully parlay into a Jake Fromm, maybe)…
5-6 wins would be a delight and a positive for this team (probably another corner in draft)..
7+ wins and the Bucs have made the necessary changes they need from how they play at this time (likely another corner in the draft)..
October 8th, 2019 at 11:18 am
The injuries have arrived. The only reason the Bucs won the first game with Carolina is because Cam couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. They are rolling now. They are also one of the league leaders in sacks and we now have even worse linemen that will playing the right side this week. Unfortunately I would guess that a loss is likely this Sunday on the other side of the pond (home game my a$$). They get to 2-4 and things could start to get ugly. Wins are going to be very hard to come by with the secondary playing the way they are.
October 8th, 2019 at 11:19 am
BUCS = COACH KILLERS’!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
October 8th, 2019 at 11:22 am
The FANS knew that Hargreaves wasn’t an outside corner after his first season. He was put at slot and did a decent job. Then, we bring in a great coaching staff and they send him back to the outside. Why?
It was clear before and never more clear than it is now. Dude can’t handle the outside. PERIOD.
A good coach adapts to his players and places them in their best position to succeed. (Not Mike Smith, but a good coach does this.)
Let’s see what happens from here. Panthers threat is mainly from the backfield and don’t have a super QB. Then we get a bye and hopefully JPP back. But the secondary has to be shuffled.
October 8th, 2019 at 11:27 am
cg
STFU!!!!!!
i aint defending him…..
i just dont see the need to bash him when he’s all we got…..
ive said he needs to play better….but so does whitehead…so does davis….so does MJ…..
the fact is: NO CB CAN BE EFFECTIVE WITHOUT A PASS RUSH……PERIOD.
VHG, just like every other CB in the league looks a lot better when the dline is pressuring the QB….pressure and secondary go hand in hand….
i’ll always be a fan of VHG no matter what, just like the some will defend and be a fan of JW no matter what….
bottom line is: the defense as a whole needs to play better, not just VHG….
GO BUCS!!!!!!!
October 8th, 2019 at 11:36 am
I agree we need more pressure but every team is picking on Hargreaves and I hear to many veteran players (not just Clayton) saying he seems a step behind constantly and when the camera zooms in there is Hargreaves runnnig two steps behind the reciever. Did anyone see them blanket Scotty Miller on the pick that was called back??? Thats coverage on a fast receiver and right now we dont have a DB that can run with fast receivers or even physical ones. We are too slow and too small and VH3 is both of that. Try Jameel Dean the guy ran a damn 4.3 40 and is tall. What the hell can we lose he strarted for Auburn I mean come on man.!!!!
October 8th, 2019 at 11:36 am
Tye, no way the Bucs get Fromm from UGA, or Tua and probably nor Herbert from Oregon. Good chance Jets, Fins, Bengals and Skins all finish ahead of the Bucs in draft order even if the Bucs implode and go 4-12 or so and 3 of those teams need a qb and the other (Jets) could trade down as they all could be in tank mode now. Like many a lost season the Bucs will win just enough to miss the impact first rounders (would it not be nice to have Quenton Nelson shoring up that OL now, Bucs just missed him thanks to that last day win vs the Aints in 2017). I go with your second choice at 6 wins and picking somewhere around 8 in the draft. Its a Bucs life. Yeah avoiding double digit losses would be great but that is a real reach unless the boys win a few games at home and win a few more road games starting in London.
October 8th, 2019 at 11:37 am
Tye,
Jake Fromm, heck yeah !
October 8th, 2019 at 11:55 am
I’m personally tired of drafting corners, especially when it has been proven this GM cannot properly evaluate them. I would prefer BA submit his FA CB wish list and we build off of that.
October 8th, 2019 at 12:04 pm
Good thing we didn’t spend that many picks in the last 3 drafts on our secondary. Only 7 our of all of them I think Jordon is the only keeper
October 8th, 2019 at 12:06 pm
Did anyone watch Vernon in college?
He couldn’t stay with elite receivers
Slow and small and he doesn’t have the mental makeup to be a pro
Strong work Jason
October 8th, 2019 at 12:07 pm
Jordon????
October 8th, 2019 at 12:13 pm
FortMyersDave
Unfortunately I agree BUT Fromm would be an extraordinary epic move if the Bucs managed it..
There are some 2nd round talent that have a good possibility to pan out similar to Russell wilson:
Jalen Hurts – Oklahoma
Jacob Eason – Washington
October 8th, 2019 at 12:15 pm
I agree we need a FA shutdown corner whether its Patrick Peterson or the malcontent no the jaguars we got no swag in the secondary until we get one.
October 8th, 2019 at 12:20 pm
Wow…I just say a headline and realized Donald Penn is still playing
October 8th, 2019 at 12:28 pm
I’m not understanding with all the issues so many of us see with the Oline and Dline for that matter all the Fromm, Tua and Herbert talk. I’ve watched them all and you know what they all have in common TIME in the pocket to throw the ball and creative play design that gets players open. We’re not using the TEs as well as Dirk did the past few years. So Jameis doesn’t have his security blanket Hump any longer and you’re not using his other Brate effectively. The Rams game the passes were quick allowing players to make a move and get what they can on their own. We need some true road graders that get pissed off when they miss a block and the QB pays for it. D.Smith is trash I’m tired of hearing about him being an iron man. Anyone who doesn’t mark last weeks game after what was said about them by a player on an opposing team and comes out and proves what was said about was true isn’t someone you want protecting your QBs blind side whether it’s Winston or not. Build the trenches and go get Patrick Peterson, move VH to the slot and if he can’t handle it there get rid of him.
October 8th, 2019 at 12:29 pm
6 -8 wins is perfect for the Buccaneers 🏴☠️…… this way we won’t be close enough to the top of the draft to get any franchise players, and “TRASH LICHT” can find a Defensive Back or maybe another Gay kicker
Fire 🔥 LICHT …… join the movement on FB under (TRASH LICHT)
October 8th, 2019 at 12:32 pm
“There are some 2nd round talent that have a good possibility to pan out similar to Russell wilson:
Jalen Hurts – Oklahoma
Jacob Eason – Washington”
Dont let Jalen hurts fool you. He’s only good against subpar talent. Its a reason he lost his starting job at Bama and OU has played a team w/ a DB even projected to be drafted.
Its clear we have a lot more holes than QB. In order of importance Corner/Edge and RT. Jeff Okaduh/A.J. Epenesa or Walker Little but I dont think they will use a 1st on an Offensive lineman. If you can draft Jeff and bring Patrick Peterson over then the secondary will be fixed.
Im pretty sure BA isnt brining in a rookie QB.
October 8th, 2019 at 12:36 pm
I’ve been predicting 6-10 since the draft and nothing I’ve seen this season has changed my mind.
October 8th, 2019 at 12:47 pm
The seasons are won in the draft.
Depth -zero
All pro-zero
Pro bowlers- maybe 1
Efficient starters -??
Pass rushers -zero
Qb-average to below out of 32
Trade for top players -zero
Salary cap 3rd worst
Backups making over 5million -3 !!!
Hot garbage
October 8th, 2019 at 12:52 pm
Like TDTB said, the Panthers are rockin & rollin now. Cam was their ‘weak link’ and they’ve now won 3-in-a-row thanks to some strong defense, a strong running game & a conservative passing game led by Kyle Allen (not unlike what the 49ers have done?). Bucs will have a much more difficult time beating them this time around. BUT … they CAN be beaten.
It starts with the Bucs’ defense minimizing the Panthers’ running game, just like we did in Game 2. But we HAVE TO get pressure on their QB & play aggressively in the Secondary. Allen has yet to throw an INT in 3 games, but he has fumbled 6 times (lost 4 of them). He’s also been sacked 8 times & taken 17 QB Hits in 3 games. Our DLine CAN get to him IMO.
Convinced that VHIII will be replaced in Sunday’s game, probably by Ryan Smith. Wouldn’t be surprised to see VHIII, MJ Stewart & SMB split time at nickel, until one of them shows that he’s got a hot hand. Panthers are beatable, but NOT if the Bucs play like they did this past Sunday.
October 8th, 2019 at 1:02 pm
Destin JOhnny right on with VH3 he was terrible against the best in the SEC…but the worst GM in the NFL has zero clue how to build a winning football program so enjoy the stale biscuit’s one year here and an over matched OC, that should not be an NFL OC. The bucs are 5-11 and only the glazers have the call to blow up this crap they have been selling…they will host a super bowl in 2021 and only saving grace is the dolphins will go 0-fer and host this year
October 8th, 2019 at 1:13 pm
All these people that claim Hargreaves was such a stiff in college, then why the hell was his profile(s) so glowing?
NFL.com profile.
SI.com
Draft Scout
The Tribe
Bleacher Report
Seems like there are a lot of revisionist historians out there. Where did this all of a sudden come from that Hargreaves was a slow stiff in college? Since when? Damn near every half-ass and full-ass profile lauds him for his quickness.
Either folks have no clue what they are watching in college, or just cannot wait to pile on and start dreaming up false narratives because the Seminoles suck so bad at football nowadays.
October 8th, 2019 at 1:18 pm
I don’t know, Joe (unintentional rhyme). I recall when Hargreaves was drafted there were many JBF commenters who said he was slow. Maybe it was an anti-Florida bias but it seems that the detractors where accurate with their post-draft assessments. Truth be told, there’s a few commenters on here who really seem to know what they’re talking about when it comes to certain draft prospects. The post draft criticisms by some of Kwon Alexander ended up being spot on as well.
October 8th, 2019 at 1:22 pm
Gotta get Dean in there he needs the experience SMB needs the reps too
October 8th, 2019 at 1:48 pm
Another failed high draft pick?
This can’t be. They have Jason Licht….’
Oh wait.
Go Bucs!
October 8th, 2019 at 2:05 pm
Cherry picked for ya Joe…
Bleacher Report : “If you get past the size and speed questions and just look at the film, Hargreaves is very impressive.”
The Tribe : “What looked like a speed issue at times on deep passes was really him eyeing the quarterback and guessing — too many receivers ran past him in these instances.”
Si.com : “Good speed all over the field, but isn’t always able to track with speed receivers on vertical routes.”
NFL .com – Bottom Line:” While scouts have voiced some concerns about Hargreaves’ size and recovery speed”
October 8th, 2019 at 2:14 pm
@J0e – every single one of those points out his size and speed deficiencies, and says “well if you can get past all that, he’s got great instincts”
LOL cmon man. When he went up against legit NFL talent in college, he got abused.
October 8th, 2019 at 2:16 pm
I don’t care one bit what college any player went to. Not at all.
If they are talented, I want them on my team. Don’t give a single chit about where they played in college.
We didn’t want Hargreaves cuz he couldn’t stand up to premier receivers in college, and that trend has continued into the NFL.
You can’t teach speed, nor can you teach size.
October 8th, 2019 at 2:33 pm
Brent Grimes: 5’9″ 177lbs
VHIII: 5’10” 204 lbs
The difference: Grimes(inhis prime) wasn’t scared. It’s not JUST size and speed, it’s the amount of fight in the dog, and I don’t see that kind of Dog in VHIII.
October 8th, 2019 at 3:05 pm
What side of the field does vernon line up?
October 8th, 2019 at 3:32 pm
Thank You Jason Licht . Ugh…….
October 8th, 2019 at 3:36 pm
I am still highly confident in my preseason prediction of 5-11.
October 8th, 2019 at 3:51 pm
Where are DB55 and Todd? Hiding?
October 8th, 2019 at 4:14 pm
Clayton fingered Vernon Hargreaves
——
Clayton can’t be the only one to have fingered vh3 🥁
October 8th, 2019 at 4:14 pm
I think its fairly obvious VH3 is toast after this season. The Bucs don’t need to draft another corner, they need an experienced press corner while the younger guys mature.
The Bucs are moving in the right direction, but unfortunately the Bucs need some help on both lines. I would hope the Bucs entire draft next year is offense and defensive line(or edge rushers).
The Bucs have a lot of talent, but they also have some glaring holes.
I still think this team could have a winning record this year.
October 8th, 2019 at 4:25 pm
WTF did Stonehands Clayton do anyway. . . like he is now some NFL sevant???? GFY
October 8th, 2019 at 4:26 pm
The difference between a 5 win team and a 9 win team is about 8 plays. Plenty of weapons and score and beat anyone
October 8th, 2019 at 9:18 pm
8 and 8 what a joke!!! Step away from the crack pipe!!!
October 9th, 2019 at 4:24 am
jerseybucs said it best…
“the secondary has to be shuffled”
nothing more need be said…
except…
“ba and bowles can you please just watch some tape on hargrievances”
October 9th, 2019 at 6:27 am
Star ???? What a waste of the #13 overall pick who the heck drafts a blocking WR in Rd #1… Oh Gruden… & who gives him a 2nd undeserved contract… oh Dominick, just more reasons the BUCS struggle lots of wasted picks over last 12yrs
October 9th, 2019 at 9:32 am
Joe quickness is not speed. I thought he had speed but apparently his mnd is slow or his body or he likes to shadow players 5 yards behind them but something about him does not equate him to shutdown corner.