Talent III
June 10th, 2019
Too tough a task?
It seems people with connections to the Bucs believe the team has talent to be a winner. People on the outside stand, scratch their noggins, and ask, “Where?”
Joe brought word last week that Bucs coach Bucco Bruce Arians again spoke about the Bucs having enough talent to win. This comes on the heels of both former Bucs coaches Dirk Koetter and Father Dungy saying the same thing.
Then, uber NFL insider Jay Glazer of The Athletic chimed in and suggested otherwise. Now add Robert Mays of The Ringer as a non-believer.
Mays wrote about five teams that seem perpetually stuck in an NFL rut of losing. Of course, he has the Bucs listed. And he doesn’t see that changing anytime soon.
[T]he Bucs are in the least enviable spot an NFL team can be: They have below-average talent, and they’re tight against the salary cap. Tampa Bay has just under $5 million in cap space, according to Over the Cap, and that’s including the minor relief the team got by releasing Gerald McCoy and signing Ndamukong Suh to replace him. That swap may seem like a lateral move for a team with limited resources, but the one-year, $9.25 million deal Suh signed is one of several low-risk moves the Bucs made this offseason.
Arians’ presence as a head coach alone makes the Bucs more intriguing than they’ve been in recent years, but with Winston in place and the roster looking similar to 2018 (when they finished 5-11), things probably won’t be much different in Tampa Bay this season.
Mays also wrote he believes there will be a housecleaning come 2020 and the Bucs will be in full-blown rebuild mode come January.
Of course, if the Bucs go all rebuild mode in the coming winter, that very likely means Arians will be gone to his retirement lakefront house in Georgia. For good.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:04 am
Bring’em on over to Orlando Team Glazers. We’d love to have’em.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:06 am
He needs to ditch that stupid looking hat. And wear a bucs hat maybe he thinks hes still in Arizona. After this season they will undoubtedly be in rebuilting mode.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:13 am
The housecleaning has needed to happen for years. Trouble is no one trust the owners to find a valuable new general manager or coach of the future. Last year‘s free agency on defensive lineman and giving a mediocre quarterback 21 million on approve it deal put us in a major bind this year. Housecleaning will help out dramatically but we need a veteran coach.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:16 am
I’ve said it before I don’t believe this teams goal is about wins or a playoff berth. This is all about protecting Jason lights job. Hiring Ariens temporarily saved him from getting fired. If Ariens can bring out anything consistent out of Winston or the other busted draft picks it might save lights job for another year. The front office does not care about wins at all this year. My biggest fear is that light will look for any reason to rush into giving Winston a five-year extension which will absolutely doom this franchise.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:20 am
Ahhh The joys of having the worst gm in the nfl
At Least I have nick and Alabama
June 10th, 2019 at 11:25 am
I’ll stick with my stance that bad coaching, lack of player development, bad scheme fits and philosophy have plagued this team more than the lack of talent. If you’ve made it to the NFL you have talent! How do we look talent wise if all of the draft picks labeled as “busts” play well under Arians? Watch all of these so called experts change their tune! I feel like most of these guys just regurgitate what they hear and never actually watch the game film.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:26 am
Mays is prescient on this one. Bye, bye 2019 Bucs. But, I sure as hell wish and expect better!
June 10th, 2019 at 11:30 am
The only area of the team where talent is a huge question is the secondary where we just invested the most capital of the draft:
O-line = average-ish. Solid in pass pro and hopefully upgrade in run blocking via a better run scheme.
Front 7 = includes probowl DT (Suh) / round 1 DT (Vea) / probowl LB (David) / top 5 pick LB (White). Even if none of our OLB/DE pan out (Barret/Spence/Nassib/Nelson) that’s a pretty great nucleus, and I believe that OLB group is going to be pretty decent. Maybe no studs but definitely a rotation that can apply pressure.
WR/TE = top 5 in the league
RB = bottom 5
Special teams = ?
Basically our front 7 should be at least about NFL average, along with our O-line, and our skill players are top 5 in the league. If the secondary can just be average, then we will have a pretty well rounded team for once. Big IF tho
June 10th, 2019 at 11:31 am
NOSBOS can take a long walk off of a short pier with that BS.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:32 am
How many years have these experts stated we won the offseason or have been given A grades for our draft only to suck outloud. So the same experts that evaluate these players and hand out grades directly after the draft now claim we have no talent. What a joke! There is plenty of talent on this roster certainly enough to make the playoffs.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:36 am
All the non believers will eat crow ounce the season starts. I believe that coaching was our biggest problem. We may not make the playoffs this year but we will see much improved defense. This will help improve the offence. We will be more consistent and competitive.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:36 am
Bucs roster:
WR talent = elite
offensive line talent = just below average
running back talent = worst in the NFL
QB talent = slightly above average
DLine talent = average
Linebacker talent = well above average
secondary talent = slightly below average
Special teams talent = average
Coaching = above average
It’s hard to say where that puts the Bucs, most people are lazy when they try to analyze the Bucs, but the Bucs talent on defense is not reflective of how the defense has played over the past couple of years and I think that is reason to be optimistic about this Bucs team.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:43 am
This would be the only organnization stupid enough yo fire a head coach who has never been fired before in the league at any position and has done nothing but win. The only team dumb enough to do that would be right here. Arians is the best head coach this team has ever had and nobody would argue that had gruden not won one ring with Dungys team.
ITS ALWAYS BEEN COACHING!!!!
June 10th, 2019 at 11:43 am
The offense has talent! If you take away all the mental breakdowns they will have success. We’ll have to see if BA can instill mental toughness though. The D lacking some talent was made to look totally inept because of a system that didn’t fit the skill set that they did have. Plus the D suffered for the last decade from lack of heart. No one likes a quitter and we’ve had so many of this team I’ve lost count.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:45 am
We have talent….littered here and there, that’s our issue. There’s no core strength that wins football games. O-line/dominant run game?….Not even close. Dominant d-line that elevates the rest of the defense and keeps us in games?…..Nope….QB that can take over games?….Laughable.
Now add in, we have ZERO depth in those key areas. This team is built exactly how the Glazers prefer….good enough on paper to sell hope.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:51 am
With NFL rules favoring offenses I believe have a top 5 offense with an average defense can work. Last year almost proved my point except we had a bottom 5 defense.
June 10th, 2019 at 11:55 am
Just being drafted means that you are in the top 2-3% of college talent and even then, sometimes, a UDFA will shine brighter.
Our talent is comparable to any NFL team
How that talent is prepared and utilized is the difference
IMHO It has always been the coaching with very rare exception
June 10th, 2019 at 12:02 pm
Offense is fine, hopefully rojo can step up.
I’m sure our defense has a lot of athletic talent (based on where they were picked) but they’re young and have everything to prove.
As Coach Klein said…Tackling Fuel
June 10th, 2019 at 12:04 pm
Got fired in Pittsburgh.
June 10th, 2019 at 12:07 pm
Koetter’s problem was that he had only one gameplan
The exact same gameplan was used for every game without exception
It’s a wonder that we were able to get 5 wins in each of the last two seasons because every opposing team knew what we were bringing week in and week out
Those five wins were earned on talent alone
Just the change in gameplan that a new staff brings will bring us some wins
And if BA can tailor a gameplan for each opponent with halftime tweaks to boot we will definitely beat the over with a strong possibility for playoffs at least
June 10th, 2019 at 12:07 pm
@Allbuccedup omg dude you and that hat. It’s all you f*ucking talk about. If you want to discuss fashion please go to another website. this isn’t joehatfan.com. I swear please will find anything to cry about.
June 10th, 2019 at 12:07 pm
people*
June 10th, 2019 at 12:13 pm
I believe coaching was the biggest issue, but we won’t know for sure until real games are played.
I thinks it’s fairly clear that the team was split between QBs, poison of malcontents and a defensive coaching staff without a scheme. Further, it was clear that the coaches could not make game time adjustments because they had no scheme to adjust. Correction, they could decide if they wanted to play 10 or 15 yards away from the line of scrimmage (fine tuning over or under 40 points allowed).
So, I believe that we will see a major improvement in defense!!!!
June 10th, 2019 at 12:17 pm
Didn’t Lovie Smith or Licht speak of the playoffs in the opening press conference when they were hired? After spending like drunken sailors in the 2014 offseason and trading away a 4th round pick that would become Trey Flowers for 31 year old Logan Mankins the Bucs would go 2-14 and be the worst team in football.
The management and the fans here have consistently thought the team had the talent to become a playoff team and the team has consistently proven otherwise. Good owners are able to recognize the problems and make moves to fix them. In firing Koetter but keeping Licht they have put faith that it wasn’t the talent but the coaching that has cost them (this is the 6th different coaching staff since the last playoff appearance). It’s pretty clear why the Glazer Babies are some of the most clueless owners in sports, all you have to do is look at their record.
June 10th, 2019 at 12:22 pm
2008 – 9-7 (HC Gruden fired)
2011 – 4-12 (HC Morris fired)
2013 – 4-12 (HC Schiano fired)
2015 – 6-10 (HC Smith fired)
2018 – 5-11 (HC Koetter fired)
So….it’s the coaching right guys?
June 10th, 2019 at 12:23 pm
@Wausa
I think that’s a good breakdown as well.
Secondary = “?” for me basically more than anything. That unit may surprise but I’d think slightly below average should be the floor (vs historically bad last year)
June 10th, 2019 at 12:29 pm
ive been saying for the past 3 years, the problem has been coaching NOT talent…..
GO BUCS!!!!!
June 10th, 2019 at 12:31 pm
Good points here – especially about the half time adjustments. That’s a topic I haven’t seen covered yet by anyone. Half time adjustments are a major factor in the NFL – just take a close look at the Patriots. We have not had that since…
Hey Joe – how about gathering some research on Arian’s results in the second half of games compared to our garbage history of the past 5 years.
I remember many games that badly needed “basic” adjustments at half-time, only to see us come out running the same crap over and over.
Adjustments = real coaching. How about it Joe?
June 10th, 2019 at 12:31 pm
Its kind of hard to evaluate our talent from the outside looking in when the player development and coaching has been so incompetent for at least the last 5 years
Personally, I thought we’ve had enough talent to win at least the last 3 years; in 2016 we were literally 1 win away from being a playoff team. Then at some point the wheels fell off, and Dirk lost the team.
Imho, this is by far the best coaching staff we’ve had in these parts since Dungy was on the sidelines; I still believe we have the talent to be a playoff team in general, we just needed find a way to get better in all 3 phases of the game; focus on the details and then find a way to eliminate the 3 or 4 plays that seem to happen every week that cost us football games…
All of that being said, I’m putting all of my confidence in BA and his staff to make the necessary changes needed to help this team finally get over the hump…
June 10th, 2019 at 12:32 pm
^^^ and that goes for both side of the ball.
June 10th, 2019 at 12:54 pm
Joe Says:
June 10th, 2019 at 12:04 pm
This would be the only organnization stupid enough yo fire a head coach who has never been fired before in the league at any position and has done nothing but win.
Got fired in Pittsburgh.
Well…sort of. Tricky Tomlin tried to “retire” him. The same with Lebeau so Joe is basically right. Tomlin has done a few head scratching things in Pittsburgh…but also won a title I suppose.
As for Licht Weight…more damning evidence that he has driven this team further into the cellar.
June 10th, 2019 at 1:00 pm
Every season paid prognosticators predict that the good teams will still be good and the bad teams will still be bad but yet every year teams go from last place to first place, top of the draft to the playoffs, and from the penthouse to the outhouse. There is way too much young talent at some very important positions to say there isn’t talent. Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, and Perriman at WR and Howard and Brate at TE are either the best or one of the best groups of pass catchers in the NFL. Sure, that’s one position group, but if we get average play from all other position groups, having one great group and decent play out of all others is usually enough to get teams to the playoffs.
June 10th, 2019 at 1:12 pm
Rumor has it Jason Lichts working a lifetime contract for Jameis. I pray this is only a rumor and nothing more.
June 10th, 2019 at 1:39 pm
Who wouldn’t be a non believer based on results of the pathetic coaching of Dirk koetter. I will say this I’m really hard on the Joe’s and other local media but that’s because they would know more about this team than any national talking head. Jay Glazer and this guy there opinions are beyond irrelevant unless Jay wants to talk workouts hes not qualified to talk about football wins and losses.
We honestly know nothing about this team because all the fluff was during non contact drills and underwear football rules so I’m on the Joe bandwagon that we haven’t learned nothing and will not until the bright lights of preseason games are here then we can truly judge when they are playing other offenses they dont practice against everyday
June 10th, 2019 at 1:41 pm
I would argue that there is plenty of talent on this team on offense. Defense? Well, we have spots of talent, and some guys who need to develop into solid players.
That being said, this season has an ‘all or nothing’ feel to it. It sure does not feel as though they are building toward future seasons. Not yet.
Of course, if last year’s picks and this year’s picks work out, this team is going to turn into a great team this year.
June 10th, 2019 at 1:56 pm
“Every season paid prognosticators predict that the good teams will still be good and the bad teams will still be bad but yet every year teams go from last place to first place, top of the draft to the playoffs, and from the penthouse to the outhouse”
Except for the Bucs who have missed the playoffs for 11 straight seasons, a period in which 30 of the 32 NFL teams have all gone, and the only other team to miss it, the Browns, are widely expected to be in the playoffs next season. Funny to have fans bang their head against the proverbial wall and keep thinking this is going to be the year with most of the same players who went 5-11 the past two seasons and a 11 year running average record of 5-11.
June 10th, 2019 at 1:56 pm
“We need to score more
and keep on scoring
Klueless was good going from 20 to 20 yard line
BAs only chance of being in playoff contention at the end of the year is to turn this team to the KC Chiefs of the south
We must be leading and score early in the 1st quarter and dictate the opponents defense
if we average and consistently score over 20 pts in the first half …we have a shot at 9 wins
*Godwin and OJ must play 16 games”
Kobe Faker
June 10th, 2019 at 1:58 pm
Bunch of wack bucs fans here. No one knows what’s going to happen. Bunch of speculative bull spit from a ton of computer jockeys.
June 10th, 2019 at 2:02 pm
Gotta love national media. Can’t yet say we will not go 5-11 in 2019, but they also don’t know we’ve put together the best coaching staff that includes coaches with very good references. Haven’t had that since Gruden and Monte. All they think is if BA can’t go 16-0 and win a Super Bowl this year with Jameis BA is going to retire. FINALLY switching to 3-4 and they wonder why we switched from HandsOnHips93 to a harda$$ Suh with 3-4 experience lining up next to Vea.
June 10th, 2019 at 2:02 pm
For the most part, the Bucs are a young team with plenty of talent. I’m telling you these young guys are going to ball out for the old man this year. 11-5 in 2019!
June 10th, 2019 at 2:04 pm
If the Bucs aren’t in the top 5 drafting next year, it will be a miracle…
I’ve never been one to believe in the tanking a season for the future BUT it sure seems like if any team were ever positioned to do it and benefit, it would be the Bucs this season… Get Tua or Fromm, bolster the oline and running back, receivers already are there…
June 10th, 2019 at 2:26 pm
Ngakoue is in a contract dispute with the Jags. Maybe Licht should sniff around that and see what it would to take to trade for him. Cut JPP and a couple others to give Ngakoue a fat payday.
June 10th, 2019 at 2:30 pm
BRUCE ARIANS WENT 10-6 HIS FIRST YEAR WITH LESS TALENT IN A DIVISION THAT HAD THE 49RS MAKING A SUPERBOWL APPEARANCE IN FEB 2013 AND THE SEAHAWKS WINNING THE SUPER BOWL IN 2014 SEAHAWKS WENT 13-3 THAT YEAR AND 49RS WENT 12-4 THE FOLLOWING SEASON ARIANS HAS HIS TEAM IN THE PLAYOFFS AND TOOK THEM TO THE NFC CHAMPIONSHIP GAME A COUPLE YEARS LATER SO YEAH COACHING DOES MATTER AND THE BUCS AREN’T IN AS BAD A SHAPE AS WE MIGHT THINK. WE STILL HAVE ONE OF THE TOP OFFENSES IN THE LEAGUE
June 10th, 2019 at 2:31 pm
I pretty much take what people “on the outside” say about the Bucs with a grain of salt. They look at the previous years records and come to a conclusion without any real investigative work. Just recently someone “on the outside” said the Bucs lost their heart by releasing McCoy. Cmon get real! As much as I love McCoy, he wasn’t a game changer.
June 10th, 2019 at 3:20 pm
Bucs are plenty talented to be a winning team this year.
BA told you that from the day he got here.
Coaching matters dammit!
June 10th, 2019 at 3:25 pm
Joe, why do you give so much weight to Glazer’s opinion of Bucs talent? He isn’t an analyst, he’s an information guy with lots of contacts. Not saying it isn’t interesting on some level, but you are doing this more and more lately. I’d be interested to see if Glazer even attended any of Bucs mini camp sessions.
June 10th, 2019 at 3:52 pm
Changing the Culture of Losing – starts at the top.
(JFYI, Team Glazer has ran Man U into the ground too!!!)
June 10th, 2019 at 4:35 pm
Not drinking the kool-aid just yet. Many of you here..(won’t call names but I and you..remember) sung Koetter and Smittys praises to the..7th galaxy and beyond when they came on board. Every single GD year..we have raved about our talent..and coaching. Put the #am product on the field and lets se what we got.
Until then, I’ll just..laugh at all of you guys predicting. I am hoping we turn the corner this year. If not..I’ll present my completed lyrics to all of you come seasons end to…Its A Buc Life.
June 10th, 2019 at 5:02 pm
Glazer and Mays are idiots. How can a team have the top passing offense and have no talent?
June 10th, 2019 at 5:42 pm
Kobe,
You are the only one who choose to post a plan rather than get caught up in an debate which is fundamentally flawed to begin with.
Coaching vs Talent! Its the debate equivalent of a honey trap.
Fans are drawn into it like bees to honey. Pick a side , anyside , and you’re caught. Which is why I have to compliment you avoiding it and offering a game plan and/or half time adjustment.
Quick point, koetters offense no doubt moved the ball well between the 20’s.
But it seems clear that a portion of fans believe that the offense in the red zone was awful, incompetent, ineffectual. ..etc etc.
Is there a major issue to address?
. The reality is the Bucs were better in the red zone than the Rams. The Rams for fans who didn’t know played in the superbowl last year.! And for the quick to dismiss crowd (“but they couldn’t score touch downs”) field goals aren’t counted! Yes it’s easy to predict the willingness of some to avoid confronting their own storyline.
Point is kobe, the plan you suggest is possible and probably the most effective way to make a dramatic shift in the teams win totals.
June 10th, 2019 at 6:12 pm
Stonedbuc Says:
June 10th, 2019 at 1:58 pm
Bunch of wack bucs fans here. No one knows what’s going to happen. Bunch of speculative bull spit from a ton of computer jockeys.
If something happens 11 years in a row (missed playoffs) are you the special someone who bets that it won’t happen in year 12 based on a roster that isn’t very different from the past two years? If you are confident the Bucs are going to the playoffs then you can make a LOT of money in Vegas. Feel free to put your money on the line. In fact, I encourage everyone to bet heavy on the over if you feel so certain. Just think of how happy you’ll be.
https://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/26632812/super-bowl-divisional-odds-playoff-odds-all-32-nfl-teams-2019-season
Vegas will just GIVE you 500 dollars for every 100 you wager that the Bucs will make the playoffs. Simple enough right?
June 10th, 2019 at 6:56 pm
Vegas isn’t expecting much from the Falcons or Panthers either so it could get interesting.
June 12th, 2019 at 9:15 am
The Bucs need a RG,RT, and Kicker and they should be at least an 8-8 team. Full blown rebuild is BS. Bruce will honestly evaluate all players in training camp and make the required roster changes.