Clarification On Shoulders
April 9th, 2017
“You are paranoid, Joe!”
Joe keeps noticing something of late and is writing a post to clear up any muddy water.
Yes, Joe is on the bandwagon for getting running back Dalvin Cook in the first round. If it takes moving to get him, then go get him.
Now, there are questions about Cook. Most Joe considers trivial, if the Bucs’ background check comes up clear. One concern is legitimate: Cook has had three shoulder surgeries.
So long as he clears a physical, then who is to argue?
Some readers immediately point to Noah Spence. Look, Joe loves Spence. His heart and his desire may be unmatched on the team. Yes, really. Dude played with one arm the last week of the season due to a shoulder surgery and even dislocated his shoulder and had to have it popped back in during the game, a win over the Stinking Panthers.
That, to Joe, cemented Spence into Joe’s Hall of Balls. Joe cannot imagine the pain and agony Spence went through when he easily could have said, “Naw man, I can’t play,” then got a shot to kill the pain and called it a day. No one would have said a word.
After the season, Spence had shoulder surgery. That’s concerning and it’s one reason Joe is lobbying for another pass rusher in the draft.
Readers have already asked, “How can you want Cook, who has had three shoulder surgeries, and be scared about Spence who has had one?”
Fair question. Here’s why:
The last shoulder surgery Cook had was roughly a year ago. He played the entire 2016 season. Did it look like that surgery hampered his play? If you didn’t know he had shoulder surgery last winter, then you wouldn’t have guessed.
Spence has yet to play one snap since his surgery. Joe is hopeful Spence can return stronger than ever. But until Joe sees him in a game, that’s just a hope, a wish.
And that is the difference between Cook and Spence.
And yes, Joe is all-in on Cook to make the Bucs’ offense complete.
April 9th, 2017 at 8:15 am
You forgot the other concern with Cook. His athletic testing was awful. Not average, not below average but awful. He’s in the 9% of NFL running backs. I know, I know but the tape, which is awesome but if you don’t have certain athletism, players struggle duplicating their college success against NFL players. You don’t have to be a 90% guy but meeting minimums would be nice.
And, if his combine #’s weren’t his truth he would have retested at his pro day…but he didn’t. Charles Harris another player who tested poorly at the combine so he did all tests again at his pro day. Why? because he knew he’d improve and show he was an NFL level athlete. Cook is hiding his limited athletism.
It has to be a concern. Never has a RB with that athletic profile been drafted in the 1st round. He may be a good NFL running back, but he won’t be a superstar. He’s definitely not a guy you trade up for.
April 9th, 2017 at 8:23 am
Today I learned:
Being arrested and charged with armed robbery, and brandishing a fire-arm at a densely populated school function are trivial offenses.
April 9th, 2017 at 8:26 am
Rex Ryan and a pro player were a part of the FSU spring game broadcasting team and Cook’s combine came up–they laughed their butt off that Cook’s combine would have any impact on his draft pick.
If you honestly think the cone drill etc have any impact over his tape, well, let’s just say it’s good you’re not a scout…
April 9th, 2017 at 8:29 am
Joe is beating the drum for Cook just like he was beating the drum for Manziel.
Trade up to get Cook? That’s a joke and a half.
April 9th, 2017 at 8:31 am
Running backs are not worth 1st round picks, and I would be disappointed to say the least if they compounded that error by trading up for one, especially in a draft so deep at the position on days 2 and 3. I’m an FSU alum, love Cook to death for what he did for the program on the field. But I’m sorry, no 1st round backs. It’s the second most devalued position on offense, just behind FB. If this team was one good runner away from being in the big game, I could sympathize with this strategy. If there isn’t DL or S help, then trade down and add some ammo to get a RB later, but don’t go utilizing premium resources on one of the most fungible positions in pro sports.
April 9th, 2017 at 8:34 am
@Joe
You are worried about NS57 because a guy in college had a surgery and played fine???????
The truth of the matter is that Joe is using JS56 injuries against NS57!!!! Every year Joe touted that JS56 was on the cusp of a huge season, only to see the guy get injured year, after year, after year!!!!!!
C’mon, dude. What are you talking about? Hungover?–Joe
April 9th, 2017 at 8:42 am
And Spence produced and got pressure on the QB playing with a Harness all year did he not? 5.5 sacks 3 FF and 2 passes defensed is not 2 shabby for a 1 armed rookie.
April 9th, 2017 at 8:45 am
Different positions though, Joe. DE’s use their shoulders every play. RB’s have to use their shoulders on occasion but is definitely not the same level of frequency. Listen, I love Cook as well. Would I move-up to get him? No…..because I also like a lot of players that will likely be on the board when the Buccs pick.
April 9th, 2017 at 8:47 am
A RB of Cook, Mixon or even McCaffrey can’t be looked at as just a running back, they are GAME CHANGERS! They add another deminsion that these other RBs can’t do. Yea you can take a RB in the 3rd round or later, but you are not getting the multidimensional back that Cook and Mixon are. Team them up with DJAX, Me, Brate and maybe Djoku and ur spreading the defense out so you can’t double no one and there will be running and passing lanes everywhere.
April 9th, 2017 at 8:48 am
No reason in the world to trade up to get a first round RB with a shoulder history, who is questionable on other counts as well. Not one, not two, but three injuires?
You are better off keeping the guy who got popped for drugs and wants to show his redemption, and trade up to get something else. This is like buying the TV someone already took home, fiddled with, and brought back….when there are others others on the shelf that no one screwed around with. And you sure us he11 down’t buy it when it’s not on sale. That sucker better by 25% off. Joe, maybe YOU are the one hungover! Better get to church, fast!
April 9th, 2017 at 9:02 am
And yeah I don’t think any pro player personnel cares that Dalvins combine numbers were so-so. I don’t think an average combine detracts from great film.
And I don’t think that Great combine numbers make up for poor film.
But I absolutely do believe that exceptional combine/ workout numbers make great film look that much greater. That’s why at this point, even though I’m against taking a RB at 19, I would trade down and draft D’onta Foreman in the early 2nd before I ever traded up to draft Cook.
The kid has incredible film. And he healed up pretty quickly from the foot injury that held him out the combine. 6’1 235 and the kid scooted a 4.45 40. He belted out 2 thousand rushing yards with 1000+ yards after contact, and shows exceptional burst/ vision/ and quick feet & balance for a guy that size. All of that bundled up with the fact that he was the best pass protecting back in the nation, and he can get you the tough yardage in the Redzone, where our offense was notorious for stalling out last season…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_9VhPVTor0&t=289s
Sign me up.
April 9th, 2017 at 9:02 am
The best thing about sports is watching people with ridiculous takes, like Blake for example, look silly when they are dead wrong about a player. They just keep spewing their garbage despite everyone knowing their creditability is non existant. It’s one thing to prefer a player over another but to state a player with the abilities of Cook will be a bust is like saying Jameis would be a bad pick. Oh that’s right that happened on this very site as well and some of us argued it every day and they know who they are. Let’s all just sit back and enjoy the show and I will say it again, the love the people on this sitem are showing for a part time college runningback with PROVEN baggage is unbelievable.
April 9th, 2017 at 9:02 am
You are hard on Spence. Guy will be nasty next year
April 9th, 2017 at 9:05 am
@Ndog, I was All in on Jameis 2 years ago bud, just Fyi.
April 9th, 2017 at 9:05 am
As deep as this draft is according to the experts, why not trade further down in the first roundand pickup two to three more picks. When that first rounder come up again trade down again for more picks. The Bucs would go from seven picks to ten to twelve picks. That would be more quality players to start and rotate in and out.
April 9th, 2017 at 9:11 am
TBR — Is hungover. I don’t recall Joe expecting a big year from JS56. Joe always mention how he couldn’t stay healthy year after year.
Disappointed? nnnnoooo Highly Disappointed on the Realist!lol
April 9th, 2017 at 9:11 am
I wonder would any of you survive without the comments feature on for a day? Some of you guys logic is wildly twisted.
April 9th, 2017 at 9:14 am
Hey, it’s after Saturday, maybe a bunch of folks are feeling the pain.
April 9th, 2017 at 9:25 am
I ‘my just glad Joe is not the GM! Lol
April 9th, 2017 at 9:28 am
You can’t draft a 1st round RB just because of need. one reason a d one reason only to draft one so high and that’s if he is something spdcial………I guess you could say that about any 1st rounder but high RBs and WRs tend to flop more often because they are overdrafts based too much on need.
I cringed when they drafted Mike Evans and I cringe if they draft a runner. If they do I hope they prove me wrong again
April 9th, 2017 at 9:32 am
How could you cringe for Mike Evans? The kid was so obviously a stud.
April 9th, 2017 at 9:34 am
Taking a running back in the first round is questionable, but trading additional draft picks to move up would set a new low in managing the draft. On an adjusted risk basis it would make their selection of a kicker in the second round look like a safe bet. I don’t believe Licht would consider giving more than a sixth or seventh round pick to make that move. Just look at all the needs on this team: running back, safety, wide receiver, linebacker, and defensive end. How can you even suggest that giving away picks to select a running back…in a class filled with talent backs is logical?
April 9th, 2017 at 9:38 am
I don’t watch college football so i never saw Evans play. I do watch the draft and seen enough WRs flop which is sold reason I always cringe when my team selects a WR or RB 1st.
April 9th, 2017 at 9:42 am
Trading up wouldn’t be bad if the RB was the real deal. To me it’s about as rare as a franchise QB. Very hard to find one. one thing I’m sure of is that whoever carries the ball for us next year will get enough blocking to be able to succeed.
April 9th, 2017 at 9:59 am
Joe, cooks last shoulder surgery wouldn’t be a problem, if that was his only shoulder surgery. Having gone through THREE of them is obviously a sign of chronic issues. The bucs have used first round picks on 2 RBs in the last dozen years. Both have had a plethora of injuries, derailing their careers. Now Joe wants to draft another RB in the first round, that already has an injury history. In a league where RBs get injured very often as it is. it just isn’t smart to draft one that is already considered injury prone. It is possible his shoulder issues are behind him. But we all know that is rarely the case. Surgery is almost always a temporary fix for athletes. Heather it be the same injured part needing more surgery, or a new part needing attention. Don’t put the bucs in another injured RB situation for the next 5 years.
April 9th, 2017 at 10:06 am
Joe, not to burst your bubble on Spence’s dislocated shoulder, but it may not have been painful at all. My shoulder used to pop out somewhat regularly when I was a kid horsing around and playing sports. Everytime it happened i would just maneuver it and get in back into place. It was uncomfortable and awkward when it would happen, but I could get back into place with virtually no pain. I just wanted to offer that up as everytime you mention it you act like it was a heroic act. Trust someone who had an issue with it for years, it probably wasn’t a big deal at all.
April 9th, 2017 at 10:07 am
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but is there any chance Cook held himself back during the combine, just enough to cause his draft stock to drop a little ? Maybe he rolled the dice hoping he would be available at #19, and his dream of reuniting with Famous Jaimis may become reality. ??????
April 9th, 2017 at 10:11 am
Enough with the pre-draft man crushes, Joe. Cook is not worthy of #19 overall nor was Manziel worthy of being a 1st round pick. Your opinion on college players is effected by homer tendencies and the flare for the dramatic. Johnny love was all about drama and this Cook love is all about being s homer. He’s not big enough, fast enough, or quick enough to warrant being picked that high. Nothing about his physical skillet shouts SPECIAL. He made plays by inches in college, he broke tackles in college. Nothing about a college RB barely making guys miss against slower opposition or a 210 lb RB breaking tackles against smaller and weaker opposition can lead a person to believe a guy will be a stud at the next level.
April 9th, 2017 at 10:11 am
Bucfan, NOSBOS offered up that theory and that is so ridiculous i can’t believe anyone would mention it. First of all, there is no way of knowing if the Bucs will or would take him even if he is available at 19. Second, and most importantly, do you know anyone that would cost themselves millions of dollars so that they can free fall on draft night. C’mon man!
April 9th, 2017 at 10:16 am
I like Cook, but would not trade up for him. Imo Fournette is the best back in the first but trading up to get him would cost way to much. We will get good players staying put where we are at in the first and second.
April 9th, 2017 at 10:17 am
Hall of Balls…HeeHee
April 9th, 2017 at 10:24 am
Nobody is going to have to trade up for Cook. The overwhelming majority of mocks now have hiim falling into the mid 20s.
What sucks is the best running back available is toxic and will be passed up because he punches women.
April 9th, 2017 at 10:30 am
I love the lack of competition argument against Cook cause it just shows that the people saying that have no idea what they are talking about. He ran all over Clemson twice, Florida twice and Michigan. Those 3 schools combined could have 10 -12 defensive players drafted in this draft so yeah that’s weak competition. Try watching film and doing research before posting next time. Next!
April 9th, 2017 at 10:33 am
Hey Brandon, how about watching some college football.
April 9th, 2017 at 10:39 am
Harder hitting in the NFL. His shoulders may not hold up.
I could care less though.
April 9th, 2017 at 10:56 am
Ndog, have you considered that while there may be stud defenders on college teams, for the most part they are comprised of lower level talent that don’t make it in/ or even to NFL.
Where as legitimate NFL defenses are loaded with the best players in the world. So in a sense, they are for the most part stronger, faster, and hit harder than their college counter parts.
April 9th, 2017 at 11:07 am
You say this now until he puts the ball on the ground 6 times a year!
April 9th, 2017 at 11:31 am
Sounds kinda like Doug’s injury status that Bucs funs have been bitching about since his second year. Three surgeries sounds really scary. Especially for a first round RB. I’ve already said that Licht isn’t gonna do that anyway though. I agree how there can’t be too many DE. Charles Harris in the first would be freakin sweet.
April 9th, 2017 at 11:48 am
I might be responsible for this, my thing is concern over Noah Spence. He was my man crush last year in the draft and I saw glimpses of him really being the real deal last season. Then finding out he was doing it one-armed… incredible, then finding out he did it with a separation in the last game.. another level.
Ive been honestly kind of obsessed with this as I truly hope and believe this kid has it. His second chance story is moving. I just truly was wondering if there was something more that we as fans might not know about. Sounds like Joes are giving us all he knows as well.
I don’t see the shoulder being an issue as such, but having Spence wouldn’t keep me from drafting Barnett, just like having GMC wouldn’t have pushed me away from Sheldon Rankins, or Cam Brate from drafting OJ Howard (that ship has long sailed, he’s going top ten) My first round pick I am always about making BPA. The challenge for Licht is to try his best to make need and draft position collide.
April 9th, 2017 at 1:00 pm
Best part of this story: “…hall of balls”! What do the busts look like?
April 9th, 2017 at 1:05 pm
Keep digging that hole Blake.
April 9th, 2017 at 2:04 pm
Here’s the difference in my mind… Spence is on the roster, we’re not making a decision on investing a draft pick. Concern for his shoulder is legit, and they should draft another pass rusher, whether his shoulder is good or not. The investment in Spence is already sunk cost, and we can’t change it. If he were coming off a shoulder surgery before the draft, he would’ve dropped another round.
Cook, on the other hand has had 3 surgeries before he even gets to the pros. If it were 1 surgery I might be concerned. 2 and I’m definitely concerned. 3 and I’m scared to take this guy in round one. Three shoulder surgeries isn’t screwing around. A few NFL level hits and that thing could go. And that gets to availability, which we all know is the most important ability.
Likewise, I wouldn’t touch John Ross in round 1 because of those 2 knee surgeries, one of which was microfracture surgery. That’s concerning. Not to mention, I think he just had a shoulder surgery after the combine.
Back to Cook. If the 3 shoulder surgeries don’t make you back off a bit, what about the fumbling issues? What about the mistreatment of animals? You can tell the character of a person by the way he treats helpless creatures. He hangs with a posse, he’s probably a sh!tbag human… All this amounts to high bust potential, which the FSU homers don’t want to admit. If the Bucs pick this guy, he will need to come clean on all these concerns, which seems unlikely.
April 9th, 2017 at 2:17 pm
Plus, there are other “cleaner” RBs who could be just as impactful. If Mixon checks out as not the same punk who clocked that woman, then he could be available later… I like the idea of Kareem Hunt or Marlon Mack… In my book, drafting a receiving TE or a WR, DE or S in round one and waiting on the back until round 2/3 is better value to the team.
April 9th, 2017 at 2:32 pm
A big YES to Cook if he is there at 19. (He won’t be). I’m 70% sold on McCaffrey at 19 but it depends on who else is available. Cook, Howard, Davis, Barnett – those 4 are pretty easy choices to draft if any are available which is unlikely.
My highest preference would actually be to trade down in the 1st about 8 or 9 spots – pick up an extra 3rd round pick and then select Budda Baker.
April 9th, 2017 at 2:48 pm
Sorry Joe, disagree. Don’t trust Cook at all, even with the surgeries. Go Foreman, our best block Market is inside. Coming out of the I-Formation, give it to the bowling ball pit of the back field. Use Rodgers as a pass catcher if twinkle toes can’t stay healthy. Maybe even trade him now?
April 9th, 2017 at 3:30 pm
Almost as asinine an arguement as the argument was about whether the Bucs should use a top 10 pick on Johnny Football.
Here’s some solid wisdom that has been proven almost since the inception of this site, whoever JoeBucFan pimps the hardest never becomes the actual pick. Just think back those of you that have been around here as long as me, you’ll find it to be true.
Whaaat? Joe started “Jameis Watch” in November 2014, and was all in favor — in advance — of the Revis trade. There are other examples.–Joe
April 9th, 2017 at 4:25 pm
@gotbbucs That’s not totally true, both Joe’s were all in on Winston. And last year on of the Joes (steve) wanted us to go after muhammed sanu which would’ve been really helpful last season.
But yeah this argument is weak af, and Joe is just tailoring his outlook to support previously held biases.
April 9th, 2017 at 5:22 pm
Davin Cook won’t be selected by Tampa
April 9th, 2017 at 5:23 pm
*Dalvin
April 9th, 2017 at 5:28 pm
Jameis Winston doesn’t count, Joe. Only the truly insanely uninformed had that one wrong. A simpleton could have made that pick.
I’m talking college drafted players in the 1st round and who Joebucsfan’s main crush was leading up to every draft. If I’m feeling unbelievably bored later tonight I’m going to hit the archives from the last few April’s and see what I can scrounge up, maybe I’ll have a report on this tomorrow…..stay tuned.
I love the site Joe, I’m not trying to sh!t on you too hard here, but I’m all about the trends. Let’s see what I find.
April 9th, 2017 at 8:02 pm
The test don’t nothing look at his skill set Antonio Brown didn’t do good Jerry Rice ran a 4.7, and others.
April 9th, 2017 at 10:06 pm
The test don’t mean nothing
April 9th, 2017 at 10:50 pm
510 210 4.5 forty
Acc isn’t known for defense.
How many defensive acc players are going in the first and 2nd round….
Zero
April 10th, 2017 at 8:34 am
meh Says:
April 9th, 2017 at 8:29 am
Joe is beating the drum for Cook just like he was beating the drum for Manziel.
_________________________________________________________
Old news. Move along.