Selfishness Behind Mistakes?
November 12th, 2015
Selfish players leading to penalties?
Lovie Smith’s defense is beset by penalties.
Wheter it is maddening calls for lining up in the neutral zone, or just downright dumb penalties for unnecessary roughness, the mental lapses on defense are fueling the Bucs to become the most penalized team in NFL history.
Yesterday, during his daily presser before the Tampa Bay pen and mic club, Lovie hinted the root of all the knot-headed penalties on defense is players being selfish.
“Three-and-five teams do that sometimes,” Lovie said of the rash of dumb penalties. “But eventually, you can be a 3-5 team and get halfway through your season and guys focus a lot more and realize some of those things are bigger than ‘me’ — and the team needs me to do this in order for us to win. Some things are hard, but before the snap and after the whistle is blown, that shouldn’t cause us to lose any football games.”
When a coach is referring to a player or players with a “me” complex or issue, that is code for selfishness, putting one’s self before the team.
If it is taking the Bucs half a season to perform some of the most elementary fundamentals of football, given what Lovie said yesterday, what else could it be other than selfishness?
November 12th, 2015 at 9:14 am
has lovie taken responsibility for anything ever… it’s always the coordinators or players fault. Look at the history the way he burns through both offensive and defensive coordinators. were they all selfish too because they did not buy in 100% of the coaches BS philosophies and way of doing things. no they were scapegoats to extend his career. Look at the quality players that let were let go, yet are doing well with other organizations. Penalties and undisciplined play falls back on coaching just as much as the players. Either the players are not buying which leads to lackadaisical play or the fundamentals are not being emphasized enough. Did LVD get selfish and forget how to play or does Lovie just do not know how to use him. It’s funny that schiano gets ripped for being a rigid control freak yet Lovie is equally or even more rigid and a control freak yet he gets a free pass because he supposedly a nice guy. Such hypocrisy… I am no schiano guy but this group of defenders sure could use a foot in the arse or some toes on the line. So is blowing leads and passive game day philosophies because the players are selfish too.
November 12th, 2015 at 9:27 am
@Tmax
We know you loathe Lovie almost existentially. It’s almost as if he raped your wife or something. While many of your points are valid, in the opinion of many some are simply overstated.
I respect your disrespect of Lovie’s coaching ability. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and nobody can deny the record he’s posted here in Tampa. He clearly has not yet turned this program around.
Having said that there are some signs of hope at long last. I know…you think people who are satisfied with hope are settling and I agree…if he can’t convert that hope into reality with at minimum six wins then I’ll join you in the call for his firing.
I think I’m over responding with records and SB’s yadda yadda…it’s so very clear where you stand and we’ve beaten that dead horse to death.
Here is my major concern for folks who feel as you do. By taking EVERY fault of the Bucs and simply transferring it to Lovie I’m afraid we give the players a pass. It’s not Lovie lining up in the neutral zone…that’s one of the highest priced DT’s in the league…and till this year the face of the franchise…the next biggest star LVD has had some mysterious lapses in tackling skills this year..
I don’t care about LVD’stats…stats can mislead…as you and others might suggest the reason LVD’s numbers may drop is because Lovie has him out of position. But I’ve seen too many times when LVD was in PERFECT position and mysteriously simply whiffed on the tackle..that was not on Lovie anymore than it’s on Hardy Nickerson. Tackling is such a fundamental that for an NFL player to mysteriously lose the ability to execute is simply puzzling. LVD has received plenty of coaching on how to tackle over the past ten years in the NFL and NCAA.
These players need to be held accountable and giving them the get out of jail free card because we believe it’s all because of who the head coach might be is not right IMHO.
You make many valid points to back up your view, but the frequency and vitriol of your posts and the abscence of a proportional amount of criticism for the players makes it seem personal. Just sayin’.
November 12th, 2015 at 9:31 am
Players that lack talent usually get beat & players that get beat try to get an advantage or get frustrated……it causes them to get penalties…..yes that would be selfish but understandable behavior.
Is it Lovie’s fault…..partly…..is it the other coach’s fault….partly…..is it the player’s fault…..mostly.
It’s so easy to place the blame on the HC….because the mistakes are spread around so much that the offending players cumulatively get a pass.
I had a bad meal the other day and blamed it on Lovie.
November 12th, 2015 at 9:33 am
@joe,
I am starting to hear rumblings coming out of the players, I don’t think Lovie pointing the finger is going to help this situation!! The last 8 games will be very telling!!!
The motto this year should have been ” Pass the Buc” for all the blame shifting that lovie does!!!!
November 12th, 2015 at 9:35 am
PS – during the presser he also took responsibility…
November 12th, 2015 at 9:45 am
Tampabaybucfan
I had a bad meal the other day and blamed it on Lovie.
————————–
Now you are getting it…
It’s the pattern with Lovie both here and Chicago that leads some of us especially myself to have zero faith that he will ever get it. I suppose it’s the selfish coordinators fault he can’t and never has been able to beat teams with a .500 or above record. It’s probably the ball boys fault he misses the playoffs more than making them. It’s probably George Bush’s fault he has not won a playoff game since 07. Everyone has a right to their opinion but I just can’t understand how anyone who looks at lovie’s career numbers and breaks them down objectively can say he is magically going to get it year 12 and turn this team around. There is a reason a 10-6 coach got run out of town in chicago and there is a reason that most Chicago fans were fed up with his BS. At the end of this season he will make some coaching changes to buy himself another year and everyone will be happy with a 6 or 8 win season. I am sorry but I can not and will not accept mediocrity or trying hard or improvement or growth or whatever BS Political Correct term that is used to justify mediocrity. People can’t give Lovie credit for getting rid of his NUMEROUS personnel blunders and not want the Glazers to get rid of the biggest mistake of all and that was giving Lovie full control of a roster and staff. I was on board with his hiring up until is was very clear he had learned nothing in the basement and deserves to be put back in it permanently.
November 12th, 2015 at 9:47 am
@TBBF
I had a bad meal the other day and blamed it on Lovie.
That’s funny. It begs a question though.
Did you have dinner at Tmax or Realist’s house?
Then again perhaps Pablo slipped you a bad burrito.
November 12th, 2015 at 9:55 am
@tmax
Had a post eaten I guess in response to your first post but fits the second as well.
I think the reaction you get from some here is because it seems as if Lovie has done something personal to you.
You certainly present valid points and I respect that. Others present their responses about Lovie’s record and I respect that as well.
If he doesn’t win six this year I’ll join you. It’s not that I’m saying you are incorrect simply that your presentation leaves something to be desired.
It comes across as VERY personal..almost an existential hatred of Lovie.
Because I loathe Dungyball or Chucky’s pound the rock I was against Lovie tactics from the beginning. Ironically once he hired Koetter and gambled and drafted #3 (seems like an easy call now but at the time it WAS a major gamble) and started going for it on fourth down I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps and old dog can learn new tricks.
I do not disagree with you so much as your style I guess and what concerns me most about you and realist is not that I disagree with your assessment of Lovie as much as you don’t criticize others (esp players!) who are just or IMHO more responsible that Lovie.
And so too many high priced talents…GMC..LVD and others are getting a pass because it’s all Lovie’s fault.
I get it though. Let’s forget the past SB of division titles…I can do that if we can forget all the mistakes along the way as well. Let’s all get in the moment the here and now.
There is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. Lovie’s future will be determined by the next 8 games. He better win at least 3 of them or he should be gone. And yes I’ll concede if he was a “great” coach he’d win at least five of them and finish .500. Let’s just see how it plays out.
November 12th, 2015 at 10:06 am
StPeteBucsFan
I have no tact. I could careless about Lovie personally. I have never had any interaction with him on a social level nor will I ever. I can definitely see how you would take my bluntness as a personal attack. however, that’s not the case. Unlike some fans who defend the guy like they know him and break bread with him weekly which they clearly do not. I just state very clearly what I see / feel. I despise the PC contingent more than anything on this planet. It’s more important in today’s society to be PC and not hurt anyone’s feelings than Integrity is. which is bs… And by the way you don’t get credit for losing super bowls or being one and done in the playoffs that my friend falls into the mediocrity column. I have the utmost respect for TBBF, yourself and several other regular posters here including Pablo. Anyone passionate about the bucs I’d gladly break bread with. And to be clear, I don’t hate Lovie Smith I hate the results that he has produced. Efforts without results are meaningless!
November 12th, 2015 at 10:08 am
If the Bucs lose to the Boys
they won’t win another game this year
Fire Lovie and his pc BS
November 12th, 2015 at 10:23 am
@Tmax
Well we are absolutely together with your first and last sentence.
Like you…I have no tact. My wife cringes when she has to take me out in public. LMAO
And I absolutely agree with your last statement…
Efforts without results are meaningless!
Amen brother. But here is the question for you. What results would make you shift from a Lovie critic to a Lovie supporter. Just a hypothetical.
I’m already on the record as believing this team had enough talent to win 8 and anything less than six should result in firing. Next year he MUST make the playoffs and the following year we should be true SB contenders. That’s my bar what’s yours before you become a fan of Lovie’s?
November 12th, 2015 at 10:41 am
StPete
My biggest issue with Lovie is very simple he is far to rigid of s system coach. He has zero creativity or flexibility it’s simply always my system works and you will fit into said system or be replaced. several talented players have been shown the door because Lovie did not know how to use them or refused to modify his system or the way he thinks the game should be played. For me to jump on the Lovie bandwagon he’d have to. Get the best out of his defensive players not force system, system ststem. After all great coaching is maximizing results from the talent on your roster. A great coach analyzes his players and understands their strengths and weaknesses then puts them in the best position to succed… all Lovie does is preech system bs.
November 12th, 2015 at 10:45 am
This team is an ongoing disappointment. Excuses have worn thin. Worn out excuses yet continued subpar execution. Not too many other teams mired in such a rut. Lovie won’t turn this culture and style of losing around. It’s futile to anticipate positive change and results. This franchise is stuck in the big giant Loser mindset.
November 12th, 2015 at 10:46 am
another thing is his piss poor game day management. yes, i was happy he went for it on 4th down but the decision was so indecisive and uncomfortable for him it was obvious. i can’t remember who used the term desperate maybe realist but that is a very accurate word to describe Lovie doing anything outside the box. It’s not spontaneous or creative its out of desperation and he clearly is uncomfortable doing those things. I just don’t think his philosophies work in today’s league between the wussy CBA and limited practice and the fact its a passing league and the officiating is clearly different and lovie is still coaching like it’s 1997….
November 12th, 2015 at 11:01 am
“Players are putting themselves first by committing penalties. They need to think about me and my job first and knock it off!”
#NeverLoviesFault
November 12th, 2015 at 11:30 am
StPeteBucsFan Says:
November 12th, 2015 at 9:27 am
@Tmax
“We know you loathe Lovie almost existentially. It’s almost as if he raped your wife or something.”
LMAO!! Thank you for the laugh StPete. Are you seriously trying to understand the mind of a “non-sensical radical”? I’ll make it simple for you.
I’m late for work!.. Lovie Smith’s fault
My wife is cheating on me!… Lovie Smith’s fault
Ben Carson is leading in the polls!!… Lovie Smith’s fault
I have a SMALL WANG!… Lovie Smith’s fault
I’ll ask you a question StPete! If Lovie Smith was SUCH A BAD COACH, why didn’t Chicago SUCCEED after he got fired with a 10-6 record and the 5th ranked defense in the league? Instead of succeeding, they have regressed every year(ESPECIALLY DEFENSIVELY) and are now in a REBUILDING state!! Well one might answer with “Tressman was a horrible head coach???”
Well that brings me to my next point!! These “non-sensical radicals” are calling for the termination of Lovie Smith and EXPECT the Glaziers to replace him with someone better??? Don’t they know that these are the same guys who hired “Morris, Schiano, and Satan himself Lovie Smith” in the first place!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
#AlwaysLoviesFault
November 12th, 2015 at 11:35 am
Well I can certainly agree with the majority of the opinions expressed about Lovie. Let that be clear….
My take on him is simple… Your simply NOT GONNA FIND A BETTER COACH TO COME IN HERE AND PUT HIS CAREER AND REPUTATION ON THE LINE KNOWING THEY WILL GET RAN OUT OF TOWN BEFORE THEYRE CONTRACT IS UP IF YOU KEEP FIRING COACHES BEFORE THAT….
Bottom line is even more simple!!! Outside of wins and loses he is doing everything a decent head coach should do at this point in a rebuilding process…. IT SIMPLY IS NO ONE PERSONS FAULT WE ARE WHO WE ARE…. Its a collective issue stemming from a long scheming bigger issue…. Which you can blame on the Glazers and the fans whom the Glazers listened to when they ran Gruden out of town… I know that is a tough pill to swallow. But if your looking for someone to take responsibility always start with yourself… And if you don’t think your a part of the team why call yourself a real fan???
The solution to this issue is even more simple…. Effort without results IS meaningful because it provides answers to what you need to improve at most…. Obviously wins are important… But so is sustaining the results… If you want results from effort you get the 10-6 Raheem team THAT MISSED THE PLAYOFFS….
If you want sustained success you learn from the failed efforts of past results and you make them strength s…
At the end of the day…. You can hate Lovie for not icing the cake…. But at least he is making you one that taste a lot better than the one you had…. Plus’s if you give him a chance to finish it he might even ice it…. But he certainly won’t do it if you fire him before he is done….
So don’t be so opptamistic to think ANYONE could do much better in the VERY short amount of time you have given him thus far….
THAT IS SIMPLY BEING A FAN OF PERPETUAL DEPRESSION….
November 12th, 2015 at 11:59 am
I’ll ask you a question StPete! If Lovie Smith was SUCH A BAD COACH, why didn’t Chicago SUCCEED after he got fired with a 10-6 record and the 5th ranked defense in the league? Instead of succeeding, they have regressed every year(ESPECIALLY DEFENSIVELY) and are now in a REBUILDING state!! Well one might answer with “Tressman was a horrible head coach???”
_______________________________________________________________
Funny story….
Lovie’s last season: Missed the playoffs by one game
Trestman’s first season: Missed the playoffs by one game
Now since you love sucking Lovie nuts, you blame everyhting on Schiano and Dominik leaving a crappy roster. Another funny story: Lovie left the Bears with a crappy roster too. But you’d never acknowledge it (even as every fan of the Bears does), otherwise Lovie wouldn’t let you under the desk anymore.
November 12th, 2015 at 12:10 pm
Tmax-If all Lavonte can do is blitz, then he needs to go be a situational pass rusher on some other team. He has been in perfect posistion to make plays, but he has not made be it missing a tackle or dropping an interception. Thats not the coach. He was in posistion to make a play and he whiffed! I see players in posistion to make plays every game. Very fee make them, Conte does, but he dosent count cause he’s Lovies “boy”. Kwon is making them. Jac Smith. But thats about it. The corners usually dont. They get burned, wether they are in man or zone it dosent matter. Oh I forgot they dont play man.
Lovie has nit been perfect, but look at this team after 2013. No qb, an aging VJax, an old, over paid under performing o line. Gerald Mccoy was the d line. We couldve had Bennett but Schiano ran him off. LVD looked amazing but now that he has coverage responibilities he looks just above average. And we had D Revis. But he took up alot of money. And yeah, I was mad at the time but I can see now. You kinda need cap room to rebuild a team. But thats really it. This team was over paid and wasnt playing well at all! So change was necessary.
Now you can hold Lovie accountable for the faxt that all of his stop gap signees didnt play well. But whats the alternative to M Johnson? Who was our qb going to be? Glennon? Hes ok but you dont build a franchise around Mike Glennon. Maybe you take a Carr or a Bridgewater but I can kinda see the rationale of teaming Mccown up with Tedford. But then Tedford goes down so that bridge is burnt.
Look im rambling now but basically, if a player isnt working, 99% of head coaxhes are going to cut him. Its easy to sit there and criticize a coach for not incorporating a player into his scheme but how is he supposed to do that? Do you have any idea how? Lets just blitz him every other down right? Wrong. There is so much more that goes into it that we dont see. So really we dont know. And BTW Lovie last won a playoff game in 2010 not 2007.
November 12th, 2015 at 12:26 pm
Luckily the bills have 82 penalties, so they’ll take the crown from the bucs at the end of the year. Bucs have 81.
November 12th, 2015 at 12:37 pm
@bucrightoff
Not sure about your comment aimed at me. I’m neither a Lovie supporter or hater. I’m not happy with his performance as a Buc’s coach up to this point.
I have seen enough to give him the second half of the season.
Just as I asked Tmax…and I’ll ask him again…what are you guys bars for supporting Lovie.
I say minimum six wins this year..playoffs next year..and SB contention the following. If he does that I’m still behind him.
Those are factual metrics not my opinion or anybody elses. And so again..what are the metrics that would make you shift from a Lovie hater to supporter or conversely get you to switch from supporting Lovie to firing him. Actual results not opinion.
November 12th, 2015 at 12:46 pm
That must have cut off StPete. It was aimed at OneLove and his non-stop Lovie love fest. We tend to troll each other back and forth.
As far as supporting Lovie, winning Sunday is the only way to get a breather from most. A loss Sunday and that should be the end right? I mean another backup/journeyman/loser QB torches this team….at some point you just have to say it’s not happening with this coach right?
November 12th, 2015 at 1:47 pm
Tmax and St pete. I’ve enjoyed your conversation and both of you disagreed to a certain extent with nobility like adults. I’m in the Fire Lovie bandwagon. I want to be wrong. It’s easy to want to root for Lovie. Nobody wants to have to hire a new head coach and go through the growing pains, new system, etc. As I always say, I reserve the right to change my mind. There are a few factors that lead me to feel this way about Lovie. Some of these will overlap Tmax’s comments. It’s not only that Lovie refuses to mold a system around his players but rather forces the players into his system, but the system itself does not work. The Tampa 2 works when you have great linebackers that excel in coverage (D Brooks, Quarles) and when you have a beastly D Line particularly from the edge rushers (Simeon Rice). We have neither although Kwon is starting to give me confidence. It will take years before we would get there also. The Seahawks run a modified version of the Tampa 2 where they make more use of their safeties and ask a little less of the LB’s. It works because the talent is along the D Line. You know, guys like Bennett ( F U Dominic) and they have arguably the best safety tandem in the NFL. Even with all that, the Seahawks defense is becoming too predictable. it’s a different Era in the NFL. The passing era and our defense is easy to beat by quick drops and looking short over the middle. I actually see us running a lot of zone but not Tampa 2 defense. Ironically, we have been much more successful when we have run the Tampa 2. I am just not a fan of zone schemes unless we are in full blown prevent mode.
November 12th, 2015 at 4:49 pm
@cmurda
Glad you appreciate civility. Me too!!! LOL Still I can’t seem to get an answer.
Most people are confusing my basic question. It’s not WHY you all think Lovie sucks or should be supported…it’s a specific numbers question.
Bucrightoff answered. He’s got Lovie on the short leash. He wins this week or else. But I”m not sure how much time that buys in your mind BRO.
If he wins against the Boys and in fact wins the remainder of his games I think you would be happy, but if he lost next year you would not.
That’s why I’m looking for some specific win totals..this year..next and the following if Lovie makes it that far in his contract.