Joe Talks Hardy, Winston Conspiracy Theories, Free Agency, Oily Agents & More
March 17th, 2015
The JoeBucsFan Hour was back again this evening in its usual time slot, 5 p.m. Tuesday, with the dean of Tampa Bay sports radio, Steve Duemig, on WDAE-AM 620.
There was plenty of disagreement and mayhem.
Enjoy.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:28 pm
Hey Joe whats your take on this:
remember when it was said, that the NFL will find a way to stop the spread?
apearently it hasn´t and now its just part of every NFL playbook (looking at chucky)
the spread is QB friendly, since it allows the QB to have better field overview (vison) and allows for easier reads + you can still run it out of it and you get the spead in space thing, since you stretch the defense.. if you stretch sth. it gets weaker
The option pass plays are so damn hard to defend, because it puts the defenses on their heels, stretching them even morre, because now you stretch them: horizontaly (QB/HB run) AND still have the play-action pass aspect >>> vertical stretching; combined with good route concepts..
You got yourself an QB friendly, very good run/pass disguising offense..
>>> safe, efficient approach..
and Mariota with his skill sets would be very good (he did it college)
and the system/its concepts is already used in NFL and is successfull ..
so why shouldn´t the Bucs try to establsh sth. like a potent and QB fiendly offense down here Joe?
March 17th, 2015 at 8:34 pm
hey Joe, Steve make a big deal about Lovie not being in any of the Mariota pic the way he did for Jameis? Just curious……
March 17th, 2015 at 8:41 pm
forgot to mention following:
all the concepts of the Oregon “gimmicky” sheme is already used in the NFL and its successfull.. i dont get, why its so often said that “matiota is a system QB and has to learn the “pro” offense”.. these concepts are:
-Spreading (and/or Shotgun-, Pistolformations)
-Up-tempo no huddle
– package plays (simply: one play, from a vaiety of plays from the same formation gets chosen at the line of scrimmage)
– Option plays..
all the above mentioned gets used by Colts, chiefs, 49ers, eagles, RGIII rookie season much, Panthers with Chudzinski and still, Patriots, and so on ..
basically all the good offenses use more or less parts of the Oregon concept.. especially Eagles and well.. their offense seems to be good..
bucs dont use it as much.. i think it could help big time -No?
March 17th, 2015 at 8:48 pm
Any signs Bucs start to signing good veteran players for the O-line like the Wiz, the ex-Raider Center?
Logan Mankins wont be here for too many years, the rest of the Oline is cheap and we need younger development guys anyway (draft and Unsigned FA) + we got Cap space >>>> do you think Bucs are that stupid to pass on a reliable, at the very least servicalbe and proven FA who is still young.. in Wiz??
March 17th, 2015 at 8:50 pm
Chip kelly 1-3 down the home stretch needing 2 wins to take the division and couldnt move the ball on 2-13 redskins thinks the spread sucks..lol!!!..the spread has shown promise but is largely work in progress..better have top 5 d (hawks, 9ers with colin) and amazing run game with beast mode rb (gore, lynch) to make it work..even with that being said, jameis is athletic enough, look at sanchez vs dallas on thanksgiving..and jameiz being a far more deadly pocket passer removes extra player, or 2, from the box.
March 17th, 2015 at 8:51 pm
Do you think there are some good RB optioin in the draft? since the Bucs have no real PowerBack (like an Carlos Hyde, Gore, Mike Alstott, Lynch)
and they do not have a speedy/shifty guy, like an young Reggie Bush, or Sproles..
they got good depth though.. players that are pretty average in both regards: being speedy/shifty and being a power back.. but nothing special
March 17th, 2015 at 9:00 pm
@tval:
the spread principles and the Pistol + option stuff acutally help both, the pass and the run game, since:
You put the defense into the positon to pick their poison:
you going spread, therefore they have to cover the WR´s.. which gives you more place to run
if they decide to load the box regardles >>> more of an easy throw (quick, on read)
if they decide to go sth. in-between:
you go option-pass, as mentioned above: they cant defend everything.. so you again: stretching them horizontal (QB/RB run) and Vertical by pass
+
a option pass is always also a Play-action pass (if you pass) and so, its very had to defend..
you understand?
March 17th, 2015 at 9:08 pm
@tval:
yes you can run that safe/efficient with pretty much any QB, but the running threat of the QB (oh, i forgott seattle above) makes it realy potent and dangerous..
While Jameis would be able to operate this offense, Matiota is just way faster and has way more experience in it and the was damn good in it..
Mariota is very good throwing on the run, has very quick delivery and is quick in reading his progression..
while winston, not bad thrower at all, tends to be locked at his first target too long too often..
and while trading back and getting shhh load of picks sound good, Mariota + good sheme would be pretty bad a ss
(depending on the offer of courese; but if staying put, because of the better sheme IMO and then beter fit, i would take Mariota over Winston.. as shokinng of a pick it seems at first, but if you think about it, it realy makes sense)
March 17th, 2015 at 10:17 pm
Everyone is saying that Chip Kelly is awesome and the offense is working. Really look at it and what have they actually won and also look at the QB situation. Two years in the league and two years the starting QB goes down hurt. And it is not why everyone thinks, which is they run the ball to much with their QB. Actually it is that they spread the field and don’t block the free blitzers which means free shots for some of the baddest dudes in the league. The Eagles haven’t won jack and their QB’s are always getting hurt, so no thank you! Also Mariota will not last in the NFL as he is way to fragile plus he will hold the ball to long while not wanting to throw into tight windows. He has bust written all over him.
March 17th, 2015 at 10:50 pm
Eagles have good offense, just as the Panthers had since Chudzinki came with the same concepts, 49ers and Kaeps first years were great (last year they didn´t play to his strengh by calling more of traditional concepts again.. well since, shiano we should know: gotta play to players strengh; and not only Kaep was mis-used..)
Eagles didn´t won jack (just way more games than Bucs in the same span) + look at their defense.. offense (especialy the sheme wasn´t the problem.. regardless of QB..)
and again: Winston could operate the offense, but Mariota is more dangerous in it because of the different skill sets and experience..
again: Winston tend to look too long to his first target (compared to Mariota, who realy is Brady like robotic)
The injury thing, well.. The QB will have absorb some hits one way or the other and RGIII has comparable body frame to MM – the later just is just way smarter when running..
also: In College he also wasn´t hit that often, you may argue: the defenders in the NFL are faster.. well.. his protection should be better than in college also..
He didnt have Winstons 3 Oliner that are projected for the very first rounds, but with sheme and skills he made it regardless
March 17th, 2015 at 10:53 pm
Ouch! What fruit just came out of that tree? Look at the Coaching Tree >> Mike Bellotti Oregon (1995-2008) >> Chris Petersen (Boise State) >> Chip Kelly (Philadelphia Eagles) >> Jeff Tedford (formerly Cal) >> Dirk Koetter (formerly Arizona State)
Answer: Marcus “Speed in Space” Mariota
March 17th, 2015 at 11:57 pm
I agree, guys, that its a pain in the butt to defend when performed properly. I think colin was nearly perfect model of average passer and great success before seattle, specifically sherman, stole it away..but he is physical freak with above average arm..you can see cam regress due to poor receiving corps and being hobbled even slightly, which marcus struggles with. I am saying as an old school eagles fan i honestly believe jameis’ skill set would be absolutely deadly in chip kellys offense..chip has no idea what an elite pocket passer with average mobility(enough to get 10-20 yards and slide on an option read) and above average intelligence could do for his offense. It may be the difference in him making it work, imo..hes shown great innovation, but if he truly values qb play over wrs(djax maclin) or rbs (shady) he wouldnt be so stuck on a college model..i really like marcus but see his injury concerns being like rg..and style being a real adjustment outside of philly, which runs west coast passing tree with chips verbiage/tempo..thats still an enormous adjustment for marcus. even philly fans are embracing bradford as their guy..now, you understand?? Lol!! I kid..i forget who that was for..:) but give marcus time guys, seriously..i just think we all know who can lead grown men today..alot of guys are likable, not all are born field generals.
March 18th, 2015 at 12:11 am
brett kollman disagrees with you on the gimmicky offense and mariota.
his breakdown of mariota in the rosebowl game. he only watched this game of mariota’s but has great points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCcm2Vl4TNs
March 18th, 2015 at 12:13 am
brett kollmann’s breakdown of winston in the rosebowl game. this is why most intelligent fans want winston and disagrees with your poor assessment of staring at only one receiver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYa6S6UA0MU
March 18th, 2015 at 12:20 am
Making this short:
The spread could work in the NFL however most/all spread systems rely on their QB working as a part time RB. That’s just not going to work in the NFL. QBs are too important, highly paid, and marketable to have them run around taking on NFL linebackers. Just look at how RBs have become devalued due to injuries over the years. You can replace a RB fairly easily, QB not so much.
Additionally, the speed and diligence of NFL defenses would shut down a spread offense. But again it all goes back to the elvated status of the QB in the NFL. Hence a solid spread system will never come into play in the pros like u see in college.
March 18th, 2015 at 12:23 am
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, most of Mariota’s success is centered around the scheme that he plays in. Most of Winston’s success is centered around natural ability and talent. So why in the hell would anyone want a scheme dependent QB over the naturally gifted more talented one? Answer- some bucs fans dont know a damn thing about football. Can’t wait to say I told you so to some of you posters on draft day.
March 18th, 2015 at 12:42 am
Here we go on the scheme dependent carousel…Poor Aaron Rodgers dropping to #25 like a rock. Jeff Tedford’s spread ‘hid’ someone’s gifted talents, I guess.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/star-pupil-aaron-rodgers-college-coach-has-seen-qbs-game-evolve-b9992257z1-222767991.html
March 18th, 2015 at 12:58 am
1st off: i dont think it has to be discussed the spread is already big part of NFL (not the dual threat QB thing.. just the spread). The assesments made by Kollmen from the video are “meeh” because:
1st) he fails to acknowledge how Oregons concepts are already proven and big part of the NFL (of course you dont want Mariota to run a traditional WestCoast offense)
2nd) He (like many experts) overhypes him, especialy Winstons football IQ, since Oregon could confuse him with pretty simple bliztes (kind of an contain blitz).. Kollman said sth. like “winston played with Oregons secondary like with puppets” – well thats exaggerated.. it´s like saying: Matiota runs over defenses like Barry Sanders..
Winston doesn´t play as smart as advertised (forcing throws; even if the smart one is open – and if he has that good of an knowledge about his offense, he should have been able to find those.. in comparsion, like already said.. Mariota shows kind of Bradyesque robotic fast-go-through-progression reading, while winston does stare down 1st option waaay longer and if its open, or not there, he struggles..) You could see his limited speed against Oregons defense in terms of moving in pocket and gettng outside of it (with how many high draft picks protectin him on Oline?) don´t expect him to suddenly outrun NFL D-liner..
not saying Winston couldnt operate in the spread-heavy option sheme, but his mobility could be the difference between a 10 yard and a 60 yard gain + Matiota has the overall beter skill set to do it: quick delivery, throwing on run; quicker decison making/reading ability and experience of running it
Bottom line: Wilson just as Mariota excell at finding the first/quick read, but Mariota is faster finding 2nd and 3rd options and Mariota seems to be better at finding the open guy under pressure IMO
March 18th, 2015 at 1:34 am
Eviddence that Kollmans analysis is pretty full of holes:
His video of Winston is more athan 4 Minutes shorter than the original full tape of Winstons throws – and yes, real bad scenes were missing.
for example, one play (play-acton pass out of shotgun) where you could clearly see, that his lack of speed prevented him to make and easy big play by running (he has lots of space, but the LB coses in pretty ridicolously, think of V-jacks getting caught from behind by Harper(?) from saints.. + after being chased, he throws an ugly ball that should have been INT but dropped..
also in his anlysis, he describes the Oregon defense as playing lots of vanilla cover 2, at the same time praising winston for how good he reads the defense^^
also a quote “sack fumbl(..) but cant raly blame him” but of course you can blame Matiota for his sacks..
and so on.. in the end: i dont know about Kolman but it seemed like a biased analysis.. not quite on Joes level, more under the surface..
GoBucs
March 18th, 2015 at 1:47 am
@andrew: Winston is as much a system QB like mariota; they have differnt skill sets.. Winston also relys much on one reads, but because he is not the running threat that Mariotta is, you dont see many read-option-passes with him, instead they going more WestCoast sheme play-acton (traditional) FSU had a monster line (3 guys to go in the rounds) so runing the ball and playacion makes sense + shotgun as it helps for easier throws/reads.
the O-line can´t pass protect forever and Winston in reality struggles against beter defenses (even in college), then will hold on to the ball too long, becasuse failing to find the open man and lack call it: lacks the great footall IQ that is falsely given to him.. its one thing to know the theory but antoher to actually do it..
March 18th, 2015 at 2:19 am
Ding!
Look how Cam Newton gets the tar beat out of him. But he can take it (for now) because he is such a bull. Those hits eventually catch up with you. Just ask Earl Campbell.
March 18th, 2015 at 3:35 am
louden, you are so full of cr@p you should change your name to toiletbowl.
mariota does not look at 2nd and 3rd receivers, nor winston lock into 1 like you claim. hell, the videos above show that. kollman is not biased, you are. mariotamwas a puppet of the gimicky offense which is not run in the nfl. there might be aspects of the spread in oregon’s offense but it is a college offense that does not work in the nfl. kollmann addressed that too.
i cannot wait for mariota to get drafted by the redskins, jets, rams, or whereever so tat youncan follow him.
March 18th, 2015 at 8:26 am
@Joe: So how about RGIII´s rookie season.. everything was just fine (high potent offense; a no name RB emerging..) but RG just couldn´t slide, while Mariota.. i think we all know Mariota does it and does it well
@lurker: Eagles offense (which gets as close to Oregon in the NFL as any) is the 3rd RANKED SCORRING OFFENSE IN THE LEAGE.. WITHOUT AN Hall of Famer AT QB.. so how about that? call it “gimmickey” or whatever, facht is, its an highly poten offense..
No matter how you twist it, there is no “sheme downgrade” of Matiota, reality is, its even the an upgrade – for the Bucs – one hell of an upgrade..
and again: Winston couldn´t run it at the same level as Mariota does.. simply because of different skill set – does it make Winston a bad QB? No, Mariota is just the better one (in that very good high potent system at least and IMO.) and should be regarded as the safe pick, because he already showed it all on tape
March 18th, 2015 at 8:53 am
+ lurker: okay, if you think i am full of cr@p for pointing out why Winston wouldn´t be my first choice, so be it..
Do you realize it doesn´t look good to go that route to protect your favored QB?
Tell me one aspect of the Oregon offense that doesn´t do well in the NFL.
Then we can have an discussion – fair enough?
again: Kollman cut bad plays of Winston in his analysis and had some misleading comments also – so its a fair assesment to say “Kollmans analysis seems biased”
March 18th, 2015 at 9:30 am
@louden
Not sure if your fingers are tired yet or not, but not sure how much you know about Drik Koetter but he doesn’t run Chip Kelly’s offense.. Sure there may be some spread built into, but for the majority its more pro style with multiple reads being required. Jameis is familiar with the spread also…Jimbo wasn’t afraid to mix in some spread and read option with Jameis either. JW long run against OkSt was a designed run out of the shotgun and that’s just 1 of many spread style plays he run in college.
I like Mariota and would welcome him to the bucs..but even though this may seen like a minor thing the fact that he hasn’t called a play in the huddle since college to me is a little concerning.
March 18th, 2015 at 12:47 pm
@Josh P:
Fingers are okay 😉 i love talking/writting about football.
People shouldn´t be overly impressed by “Winstons Football IQ” since basically, its not that hard to understand, the actuall execution (on field) is the harder part.. and comparing Wisnton and Mariotas skill set, it should be obvoius which QB would be better suited..
Since every average Joe (salute you original Joe, especially if you allow the video) can understand and even put up route concepts and full plays by himself..
i fully expect guys whom, professional job it is to sheme around and having ties to the Oregon, to be able, to put sth. together…
and Mike Bajakian (as i said above) seems to be a good football mind and has already used Pistol formations and stuff also.. I haven´t been going through the Tennessse tape by any “scouting” means..
Still: the combo of D.Koetter and Mike Bajakian seem to be a good pair of brains with good mixture of fresh mind and NFL experience, which sound awesome on paper – but lets see what they put on the field…
Pair them with a QB with the skillset of Marcus Mariota and be very happy about it (the character is just a big fat +)
March 18th, 2015 at 12:59 pm
aaah yes
@JoshP:
Marcus will have some work to do in order to become a very good NFL QB, thats for sure (calling plays in huddle; adjustment to the speed of game; different angles because of the field size; etc)
but hey, don´t worry about this kid putting the work in.
Again: in that type of system, Mariotas skillset just match better.
and even if you have such a good sheme, you still need to execute it and Mariota did it very very good, over and over again, improved in every of his 3 years.. is such a good prospect, making him worth the 1st overall IMO
+ i forgot to mention in the post before:
remember when Tedford was said to put a scheme togheter, where whatever the defense brings, the QB should have the answer from a scheme standpoint?
Thats makes chips Offense so good, since it gives pretty good matchups for the Offense attacks the whole field + makes for better reads (QB friendly)
March 18th, 2015 at 1:09 pm
Dont know what happened, i think the Joes cutted my post..
but to learn about X´s and O´s there is a great youtube video, if you go to said site an type in “chip kelly eagles cutups” the very first one 33:21 minutes thing.. it will show you how it works and basically its no big thing if you sit down and truly try to “learn” how it works..
simply a numbers game, stretching the D and good execution
(and of course skillls, catching the ball, blocking, speed by players.. etc)
on the same time, the simplicity makes it genius
March 18th, 2015 at 4:38 pm
Any of you ever even heard of Kollman before you watched and started posting his YouTube videos? If not, did you investigate to find out a little bit more about his so called expertise? This is almost as bad as those of you who posted articles defending Jameis written by the local Tallahasee sprts writer.
March 18th, 2015 at 10:36 pm
@JoshP:
+ if anything Dirk Koetter is known for ultilizing the spread, no huddle and playing to the strengh of the talent of the offensive group..
+ Bajakian = great set-up to build sth. a dangerous offense with Mariota
There is real hope the Bucs are going in the right direction after all
for now just hope
March 19th, 2015 at 11:49 am
@louden
you just ramblin now. i said that about you because of your falshoods. you say things that other experts do not see with winston or mariota. but keep talking like you know more than most, even the professionals.
March 22nd, 2015 at 3:43 am
How can you say we have improved our depth? All we have really done is brought in back ups and let our former starters walk… Am I missing something?…