“Can We Win With These Players?”
December 18th, 2014
Sane and sober Bucs fans realize Tampa Bay is more than a season away from a legitimate run at a Super Bowl.
A case could even be made that this year’s Bucs have taken a full step backwards. Last year, at least, the Bucs had more wins and were developing a young quarterback.
And that brings Joe to how Jason Licht and Lovie Smith might approach this offseason.
Former Bucs tight end Anthony Becht, a color man for ESPN college football and a voice on the Buccaneers Radio Network, weighed in a bit on the subject yesterday on WDAE-AM 620.
Becht talked a lot about the offensive line and praised Demar Doston for his steady improvement, though he said Dotson and all his linemates have not have good seasons.
When talking about the future of the O-line, Becht said the regime needs to ask itself, “Can we win with these players?”
Joe liked that line of thinking and it got Joe wondering how this awful season will change the approach in the offseason. The Bucs have to be thinking more long term.
Why would the Bucs keep declining players who are on the wrong side of 30 years old, when the team won’t have a shot at a title run for at least a couple of years?
With that mindset, it would seem Anthony Collins (30) and Logan Mankins (32), are definite goners, with Doston (turned 29 in October) and Dietrich-Smith (28) wiser choices for the long haul.
You can hear all of Becht’s takes via the 620wdae.com audio player below.
December 18th, 2014 at 11:22 am
Yes , the next several months will be interesting to watch in terms of who stays and who goes.
December 18th, 2014 at 11:26 am
It kind of feels like Joe is trolling Brandon today with these articles.
December 18th, 2014 at 11:27 am
errr…can we win with Lovie ?
No
December 18th, 2014 at 11:29 am
That is why the bucs should trade VJ! he will be 32/33 next season.
December 18th, 2014 at 11:36 am
add V-Jacks to the list; he has some good value..
Its so sad that fans asked for that kind of movements in the very last affseason and the bucs organi needs blown season till understanding this?
Media too – could it be that their members are totally stupid and cash in lots of money compared to the shhhh they are writing?
Sad land – america, the land of the wasted
December 18th, 2014 at 11:39 am
“…and were developing a young quarterback.”
you keep using that word.
I don’t think developing means what you think it means.
December 18th, 2014 at 11:43 am
profootballtalk.com
mike Florio’s pick: Packers 34, Buccaneers 20
looks like the bucs will still get the 1st overall draft pick 🙂
December 18th, 2014 at 11:44 am
so mankins is gone and we gave a 4th and tim wright for him…
FML
that 4th would have made for a decent OL in this draft, but yeah, new england will enjoy that OL and tim wright for years to come.
thanks L & L
December 18th, 2014 at 11:53 am
@The Buc Realist,
By trading Jackson, I assume we can agree that deal would make us worse next year, correct? Are you willing to cut Lovie some slack, since we would be building toward the future? Of course you wouldn’t, and to be honest, neither would I. So why would that move make sense for Lovie to do?
You simply don’t empty your roster to build toward the future. You would think (since I’m sure you were a fan when we dumped all of our vets when we hired Raheem) you would know better. I don’t think Jackson is washed up at all anyway. He’s got crap for QB’s, with crap for an offensive line, all topped off with crap for an OC. Despite all this, he’s still going to hit 1000 yards receiving as a #2 receiver. Plus, I swear we better never do another deal with New England. I don’t care what the offer, it’s going to end badly for us.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:00 pm
Next year will be the first time ever in the history of the NFL that an entire community (Tampa Bay) begs the owners of the NFL franchise (the Glazers) to impose blackouts for home games, as it has become unwatchable.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:04 pm
Lovie’s Dream …. Tampa’s Nightmare
Lovie trades No. 1 overall pick to Chicago for Jay Cutler then goes into 2015 with Cutler has his starter and McCown as the backup….
Theme for the 2015 campaign:
DUMB AND DUMBER
December 18th, 2014 at 12:04 pm
Hot Air lovie win now talk? trade 2/3 team away and bring in a bunch of rookies to take over offense. Oh yeah bringing back your QB which you once cut for his richest contract ever?(how much was kickback on that.
Return game microcosm of season. after all the hoopla to replace Page worse stats than last year. what 6 fumbles with 4 different guys, yuk. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:06 pm
This is what happens when you change coaches like underwear
December 18th, 2014 at 12:12 pm
the real question is can this team win with wimpy ownership?
how many coaches, free agents and draft picks do you need to see go limp the minute they walk into 1 buc place before you realze this isnt the place to be. the culture reeks of weak sauce..
ever since the purge that cut brooks nobody wants to touch this franchise. why else do visionaries like chip kelly back out and you have to over pay for d players?
we will NEVER win again with this ownership…and the people of tampa bay smell it which is why they find better things to do with their sunny 70 degree weather in the fall and winter….
that is the elephant in the room that everybody is dancing around….enjoy the game..not the product or drive yourselves mad….
December 18th, 2014 at 12:13 pm
Want a good laugh go back into the JBF archives and see some of the responses to those of us who called the Mankins trade a bad move. Hint…a lot of those same posters like to tell everyone how stupid they are. I don’t know if the Bucs can win with this O line, but I am confident they could have done better this year than 2 wins with the line they had in 2013 being healthier.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:24 pm
The donald penn, zuttah, shouldve stayed. And the carl nix thing killed us
December 18th, 2014 at 12:26 pm
I certainly accept the general premise, but if we can’t get anything of value for Mankins or Collins their greatest value might still be with us.
Even if Mankins only has one or two more years in the tank he’s a great teammate and could be a good mentor to the young drafted guys like Pamphile, Edwards and whomever we add this year through the draft.
In addition if they’ll play for the right price these guys provide some depth for the next couple of years.
OL tend to have longer careers than RB’s, LB’s and other positions. I tried to research which position, aside from kicker of course, had the greatest longevity. QB is pretty high RB is at the bottom, the rest were lumped together.
But here is an interesting tidbit. The average length of an NFL career is 3.3 years but there are plenty of variables besides position or simple age.
Here’s one that jumped out at me. The average length of an NFL player who has had at least one pro bowl appearance is slighty more than 11 years or close to three times the overall average.
That tells me that the bottom line is actually based more on talent than simple age. One size does not fit all! Bodies do not age the same and of course injuries are largely a matter of luck.
Yes I’m prejudiced because I turn 67 next week. Yeoowww. But I have many relatives who can barely walk at my age and yet I still take spinning classes and lift weights and am very active…winner of the genetic lottery and good exercise habits.
If Mankins has kept himself in great shape and can still play and he’ll accept a reasonable salary I think he’s a great asset. The” still play” is the big question but line play on both sides of the ball truly is a team sport. One good guy can get lost if the players on both sides of him suck.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:29 pm
BTW This article demands a follow up which may actually be the more pressing question.
Can we win with these coaches? Given our draft position and the young talent already on this team I feel far more confident about winning with these players than I do these coaches.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:31 pm
bucrightoff Says:
December 18th, 2014 at 11:26 am
It kind of feels like Joe is trolling Brandon today with these articles.
—————-
You’d think I’d say something if I really cared…but I don’t so…
December 18th, 2014 at 12:34 pm
iPhone users can click the “x” on the url bar after the page load to avoid being redirected. – hope that helps Joe
As for winning with these players, it’s possible but I point to the coaches. Imo they are antiquated. That’s my SAT word of the day. Thank you and good day.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:37 pm
steve rosenbloom–
–The firing of the old coach and the hiring of the “quarterback whisperer’’ who just whispered that he’s benched.
Oops, babe. Oops all around. Dismissals all around. Amens all around.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:48 pm
Just stick with the usual Lovie slurping/Schiano hating Brandon. It’s your MO at this point.
December 18th, 2014 at 12:58 pm
Lovie just does’nt care what anybody thinks about his coaching prowess. Like water off a duck’s back, no ones opinion outside the Glazers concerns Lovie. Fall in men.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:14 pm
The more appropriate question is, “Can we win with this head coach?” The obvious answer being, “hell no.”
December 18th, 2014 at 1:28 pm
ShutTheBucUp
The lovie hire is clearly a disaster so we just ride it out and get worse and worse. Let another 3 to 5 years pass with the bucs in the cellar. Lovie can’t build a team. He never has and never will.
The Glazer clowns need to realize they can’t hire coaching staffs they have missed on each and every coaching hire that they made. The old man Glazer hit a home run with both of his hires (Dungy / Gruden) yet the kiddos are stinking up the bay. They need to hire a REAL football guy for President and let him show lovie and this pathetic staff out the door. I don’t mean running back to McKay either look what happened going back in time for this hire.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:34 pm
Great comedy there. –Joe
December 18th, 2014 at 1:36 pm
I can’t believe you moderated that. Come on take a joke will you. You guys are so oversensitive to this topic.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:45 pm
I want to know how we are scoring 20 points against the Fudge Packers. PFT is on crack.
December 18th, 2014 at 1:51 pm
It’s amazing to me that so many can judge Lovie’s ability by 14 games. We are coming of a 4-12 season that felt a lot worse, so it’s not like he took over a dominant team and has destroyed it. It’s pretty hard to f-up what’s already f’ed-up.
Like I’ve said, if I were to grade Lovie’s performance for this year, I would give him a F. He’s made a ton of mistakes, and we are 2-12. There’s no defending that. He absolutely should be on the hot seat next year if this continues, no excuses (I don’t care if it’s a rookie QB or not). However, he’s not going to be fired this year, nor should he. You guys can cry for it and post it every article if you want, but it’s not going to happen. It is nearly impossible to fix a team in one year. While I would have like to have seen better results, that fact remains the same. Lovie has done enough throughout his career (he’s been successful at every stop) to deserve another year. I am absolutely convinced that although we aren’t tanking, we aren’t pulling out all the stops to win (the two are close, but not exactly the same). I’m okay with that, because until we have a QB, we aren’t wining squat.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:01 pm
Someone please tell me the rumors of Lovie trading the #1 pickto Chicago fro Cutler is simply not true……lord no! This is like Spurrier and the Redskins all over again.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:11 pm
It’s not true. Lovie didn’t want Cutler to begin with. It’s so stupid and uneducated for people to even float this as a possibility.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:25 pm
@ Hawaiian
Hey man while I was going through the some JBF archives I found a thread where I asked you if you’d admit Schiano was an better HC for the Bucs if Lovie finished season one with less than 4 wins. You danced around the topic s bit by saying you couldn’t see Lovie doing that bad, but guess what…you’re one more beat down from witnessing just how bad Lovie Smith has been in his first year in Tampa. Totally inexcusable performance from an experienced HC that inherited 3 pro bowl caliber players and a solid although not spectacular core group of starters. I don’t care if one of your friends played for Lovie in Chicago, the dude is a good defensive coordinator at best.
December 18th, 2014 at 2:34 pm
@ToesOnTheLine,
First of all, why compare anyone to a terrible coach? Even if he’s a little better than Schiano, that’s still not good enough. Schiano got two years, so should Lovie. Since you’re into looking back at the archives, why don’t you go back and read what I said about Schiano year one? I fully supported him, even though his flaws were pretty obvious.
Like I said, Lovie gets an F for this year. I’m not dancing around that. I’m very surprised by it, and also very concerned. Not going to lie about that at all. I do, however, think he can and will get another year. If we look anything like this year’s team, he should be gone. I promise you I’ll change my tune.
As for him being a defensive coordinator only, he was a solid head coach for a long time in Chicago. You can spin numbers and point to how he only made the playoffs three times, but how often were they a bad team? The answer is only his first year. Look at how bad Chicago was before he got there, as well as how bad they are since he was fired. I’m not saying he’s Vince Lombardi, but he has shown over the years he can coach football. Why he hasn’t done a good job this year is puzzling, and very scary.
December 18th, 2014 at 3:12 pm
@ Hawaiian
I’m probably a bit pissy since I actually thought Schiano could and would develop into a good HC for us, so when he got canned I expected better out of his replacement (which hasn’t happened). It just pisses me off to no end to see the team regress in just about every damn category you can think of. A lot of that inineptitude falls at Lovie’s feet, this guy is not a new to the NFL HC. Personally I’m scarred to death that this guy is F’ing clueless on how to get this team better than what it was under Schiano…really I see more quit and dysfunction in this year’s team than in two years under Schiano. Maybe/hopefully they show otherwise in at least one of the next two home games, but I doubt they will.
December 18th, 2014 at 3:21 pm
@ToesOnTheLine,
I get that. I, however, see no quit in this team ,but that doesn’t mean too much as far as what I think they will become. I am truly of the belief that we suck primarily because of our QB play, with a sprinkle of our OL and OC sucking monkey balls. 1 and 3 can be fixed rather easily, as it’s almost impossible to find a QB as bad as McClown and an OC as inept as Arroyo. I blame Lovie for McClown, but not for Arroyo. I think fixing those two will literally win several games for us. How many is up for debate. McClown and Glennon have made me do something I thought I never would – miss Freeman.
As for Schiano, maybe he could eventually become a good HC, but I never saw it. His problems were more so that he didn’t treat them like men, which is a necessity at the pro level. I also personally hated his defensive scheme, because it gave up the big play far too often, and was very predictable (we literally ALWAYS blitzed on third down). I didn’t like his ground and pound philosophy, but to be fair, I don’t like Lovie’s similar philosophy either.
December 18th, 2014 at 3:32 pm
Mankins will get cut, resign with the Pats as a backup.
Collins cannot be cut, his contract is guaranteed.
Dotson might holdout. Hes being paid peanuts to be a starting LT.
I wish we could solely focus on our o-line and d-line in the draft and free agency.
I feel good about our secondary, running backs., te’s, recievers, and even our qb’s
But our two lines need to become much better if we are ever going to compete.
December 18th, 2014 at 3:34 pm
I hope Schiano gets the Wisconsin job…has Alvarez named anybody yet.
I hope Harbaugh gets the Michigan job. I like both of these guys but I suspect their “schtick” of tough guy would play better at the college level than with grown men who are earning their living at the game.
December 18th, 2014 at 3:35 pm
Robert 9, you continually bring up Tim Wright like he is the second coming on Tony Gonzalez and Dallas Clark Tim Wright is a pure pass catching TE, not much for the run blocking part of the game.
He benefits heavily from having The Gronk on his team who usually brings double or triple coverage.
Give it a rest already
I knew when Mankins was brought in it was for pure stop gap measures of one maybe two years.
Still, when Dotson flopped to the left side last week I believe the Bucs ran primarily on the left side for one of their best rushing games of the season.
December 18th, 2014 at 4:15 pm
Coach Schiano was given two (2) years because he won more games than Lovie and he had ZERO NFL experience. Lovie the Loser has no excuse as he is supposed to be all it according to the Big Poodle! I only listen to WDAE when Joe is on, but even then I just keep screaming for Joe to smack the Big Poodle in the kisser!
Fire Lovie now or we will behaving this same discussion at the end of 2015 and still in need of a HC. Lovie blows. He can’t manage game situations, his vaunted defense blows, and his pick for an OC is AWOL! Tedford has ZERO NFL experience. If the Bucs wanted to roll the dice on ZERO NFL experience, they could have stayed with Schiano.
Tell the truth…despite Schiano’s learning curve, at least we felt like the Buc’s were going somewhere?? Where are the Buc’s going with Lovie besides the crapper??
No matter what player is picked with the #1 draft pick (Mariotta or the Rapist) the Buc’s have no plan with Lovie as the Coach.
Harbaugh is out there!! I can’t believe the Niners are letting him go…but remember what the Niners were 4 years ago?? Niners = Bucs 4 years ago.
HARBAUGH!! HARBAUGH!! HARBAUGH!! HARBAUGH!! HARBAUGH!!
Greg Schiano
December 18th, 2014 at 4:33 pm
HawaiianBuc Says:
December 18th, 2014 at 2:11 pm
It’s not true. Lovie didn’t want Cutler to begin with. It’s so stupid and uneducated for people to even float this as a possibility.
______________________________________________________________
You keep saying this, but I haven’t found a single article or “source” to back this up. Sounds more like baseless speculation than a fact.
December 18th, 2014 at 4:34 pm
I see the fact that you all feel inclined to defend Lovie indicates this is and was yet another failed hire by ownership.
Again the facts are the facts.
2-14. Record blowouts and total turnover of the roster.
Sounds like the opposite of success to me.
December 18th, 2014 at 5:00 pm
@bucrightoff,
First of all, Angelo was the GM. Not a GM like Jason Licht, but a GM who makes the decisions. He was the one that coveted Cutler, and made the deal. It has been rumored that Lovie wasn’t really on board with the decision, which is backed up by his philosophy that defense wins. Regardless, the fact of the matter is Lovie didn’t make the deal for Cutler, and you can damn sure guarantee that Lovie wasn’t jumping on tables for him.
Just today, Pro Football talk wrote about possible destinations for Cutler, and mentioned Tampa wouldn’t want him because of the bad experience Lovie had with Cutler.
December 18th, 2014 at 5:04 pm
@Greg Schiano,
You are delusional buddy. Harbaugh isn’t coming to Tampa. First of all, he wants complete control. Do you really think, or even want that??? Get a clue. Second, he’s already being offered almost $7M per year to coach at Michigan. You think we should, or would, match that? LMAO!!!
Most of the other crap you wrote was so laughable, it doesn’t even deserve a response. Clearly you have issues to name yourself after a failed coach.
December 18th, 2014 at 5:23 pm
Uhh that’s not what PFT says at all, it also baseless speculates with..
“The Bucs likely wouldn’t be interested, given coach Lovie Smith’s Chicago experiences with Cutler.”
So that once again doesn’t suggest at all he didn’t want to trade for him in the first place at all. It’s Florio being Florio, saying what he thinks and not what he knows. Purely speculating.
But here’s an article that strongly suggests Lovie had a lot of power in Chicago, far more than you seem to think. From the article….
“The Bears missed the playoffs in five of Smith’s final six seasons after a post-Super Bowl power play when Smith began exerting the type of influence the Bucs just granted him. It was February 2007 when Smith, armed with a new contract, proclaimed “trust me” after firing defensive coordinator Ron Rivera. A month later, Smith pushed to acquire safety Adam Archuleta. Later, he endorsed Devin Hester as a No. 1 wide receiver. Lest we forget linebacker Jamar Williams, who supposedly made Lance Briggs expendable.”
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-01-06/sports/ct-lovie-smith-bucs-haugh-spt-0107-20140107_1_jackson-smith-lovie-smith-bryan-glazer
Sounds like he had a bit more power than you give him credit for.
December 18th, 2014 at 9:06 pm
Mankins will be fine for another year or 2. Although he is IS overpaid based on how he has played this year. It might come down to $ – Mankins will not likely agree to a paycut to continue playing here and the Bucs may deem him not worth what his salary cap hit costs. On the other hand – he should not be cut unless they have a viable replacement already.
EDS on the other hand is just not a very good center. If he is, he has under achieved big time all year. We need to upgrade that important position. I felt Zuttah was pretty good but not great – but EDS has been a serious disappointment this year.
I say keep Dotson and Mankins and draft/hit FA for 3 new players to replace EDS, Collins and Omameh.
December 18th, 2014 at 9:22 pm
Bucrightoff,
Read what I wrote again. Read carefully, and try to comprehend it better.
I still stand by the fact that Lovie didn’t make the move to get Cutler, and he won’t do it here. Do you think Cutler is coming to Tampa? Honestly?
December 18th, 2014 at 9:36 pm
Hawaiian, Lovie had significant power in Chicago, if he didn’t want Cutler he wouldn’t have ended up in Chicago. Read the link I provided. If Lovie didn’t want Jay Cutler, Jay Cutler doesn’t end up in Chicago. I get it, you hate Jay Cutler and want no part of him, but your feelings are not Lovies. Since you can’t provide anything to back up what you’re saying, I’m taking it as your opinion. But Lovie had power in Chicago whether you want to accept it or not.
But while I don’t think Cutler ends up here, I can certainly see it. He’ll be cheap to get (his awful contract ensures it won’t cost more than a late round pick), and he’ll be the best NFL ready QB available (not that that’s saying anything). Lovie must win next year, and like it or not he did got to the NFC Championship game with Cutler as his QB. Your belief that drafting a QB buys Lovie time is naive, a rookie who starts out 0-3 looking like Blake Bortles doesn’t buy Lovie any time, it gets him fired faster. I think McCown, Cutler, Hoyer, or some vet starts the majority of next year. There’s growing pains with a rookie that require patience, unfortunately Lovie can’t have any because he has no time.