Turnovers Worthless Without Points
January 18th, 2014
Without scoring off turnovers, forcing takeaways is just about pointless.
One of the great axioms of football is that forcing turnovers will equal wins.
Bucs commander Greg Schiano turned the Bucs into a turnover-forcing team last season, yet the Bucs stunk, forcing the jettisoning of Schiano.
Well, Tampa Tribune scribe Woody Cummings did some number crunching and came to the correct conclusion that unless a team scores points after turnovers, getting takeaways is pretty much a pointless proposition.
Of those seven top takeaway teams — Seattle, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Carolina were the others — only the Colts (79) scored fewer points off its takeaways than the Bucs (84).
And it’s not like the Bucs didn’t have a lot of opportunities. They were one of only nine teams to take the ball away at least 30 times (31), yet scored a touchdown after only 29 percent of those takeaways.
Only six teams had a lower percentage of touchdowns scored following takeaways in 2013 and only seven teams averaged fewer than the 2.71 points after takeaways the Bucs did.
Now let’s think about this, you Mike Glennon Mobsters. Here is a quarterback that was gifted so many chances to beat an opponent after turnovers and he couldn’t take advantage. Does this sound like a man who can lead the Bucs to the playoffs?
The premise of Cummings’ article springs to mind the glory days of the Bucs. Chucky was hired and he knew he had the monumental task of taking Father Dungy’s impotent offense to a respectable level, but he also knew he had a world class defense at his disposal. Chucky challenged the defense to be historic and not just force turnovers, but they had to score off those turnovers.
Chucky demanded nine defensive touchdowns from his charges. And he got just that. And a Vince Lombardi Trophy.
January 18th, 2014 at 9:22 am
It doesn’t matter how many times you’re given a chance to make two runs up the middle them a desperation pass followed by a punt work. If you’re playing NFL defenses and they know what’s coming they’ll stop it regardless of how many times you try.
January 18th, 2014 at 9:45 am
How many times did the Bucs call a play down field after a turnover? NONE! Most of your good teams will take a shot at the end zone right after a turnover. Instead the Bucs were trying to make sure they were in field goal range. Run, run, 3rd and 8 pass incomplete. Field goal missed.
January 18th, 2014 at 9:48 am
Your hate for Glennon is just dumb, One of the best seasons for a rookie Buc QB and you would think he played like Dilfer. And where are these Mike Glennon mobsters, pretty sure the majority are open to top competition being brought in. The playing calling sucked and had no tempo, he deserves a shot.
January 18th, 2014 at 9:52 am
Forcing a QB pick got us Freeman, I would like to see Glennon run more no huddle, seemed sharp in it and had the ability to audible which should get better if hes as football smart as advertised. Just dont force the QB pick. Carr might be the only guy there, Hes one to watch at Senior Bowl
January 18th, 2014 at 9:53 am
Patrick in Va…and to some fans it’s all Glennon’s fault and play calling had nothing to do with it or atleast that’s the way they want to spin it.
January 18th, 2014 at 9:56 am
jvato24…and to think how many years Trent was given and how much leeway he was given. Some people forget about such stuff when it comes to Glennon.
January 18th, 2014 at 9:59 am
Any quarterback would have struggled behind that offensive line. Not to mention MG8 only had one professional receiver to throw to who was double covered practically every play. To put it all on Glennon is absurd. Even your boy Johnnie would have had to run for his life.
That was the one thing that did impress me about MG8 last year, was his ability to stay in the pocket and go through his progressions while chaos was always right at his feet.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:07 am
As some have said, play calling, OL, and receivers that get open and hang on to the ball are a must.
Put Payton Manning or Tom Brady in our offense and see how much different it would be, not much.
I don’t know if Glennon is the answer or not that is the coaches job, but if he doesn’t see the rest, we are not going to win. If I had my choice between a great, very fast receiver who catches the ball, and any of the QBs, I would take the receiver, because they are rarer then QBs, plus if the QB bombs, there is always the FSU option.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:09 am
I don’t know how 8 starts is compared with 6 years, doesn’t make sense to me. I do think that a lot people don’t want to blame all the pro-bowlers and find it easier to point the finger at Glennon for all the problems.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:11 am
Joe…..you just said the Bucs scored more than the Colts….so, If Andrew Luck can take his team to the playoffs with that stat…so can Glennon.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:13 am
At least Joe found his calling with journalism and not as a personnel guy for the Bucs. We probably would’ve been in the sweepstakes for Jamarcus russel and Matt Leinart as well when they were coming out of college. Too bad we missed out on that home run out of syracuse last year, Ryan Nassib. That guy’s lighting the league up now isn’t he? This pre-draft qb stuff is nonsense when we have a guy that could be really good and guys would be excited about the prospect if they weren’t so preoccupied chasing shiny objects
January 18th, 2014 at 10:15 am
All world super star Andrew Luck threw 23 td passes this past season. That gawd-awful rookie thrown into the fire Glennon ‘only’ manged 19–in 3 less starts. Count me among the rest here getting tired of the Glennon bashing…
January 18th, 2014 at 10:18 am
Sounds like the people have spoken. At least the people that are up this early. I’d say those on Joe’s side of the argument are sill sleeping off their hangovers they got from all the drinking necessary to share Joe’s viewpoint on glennon being the single point of failure this season.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:24 am
I’d also like to state that I’m not a member of the Mike Glennon Mob. Just to keep you regulars in check. Like Joe he did not show me enough to say wow we got something here. However he did show me enough to think that I might someday say wow. Then again who knows anyways. This team has become very unpredictable. Josh (the other F word) had many wow games early on in his career and look how he turned out for the Bucs.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:34 am
I’m excited to see what Glennon can do in his second year, don’t care that he isn’t flashy. Hopefully he’s in a better offense. I didn’t expect him to put the team on his back and win his rookie year.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:36 am
@87 – I am 100% in your camp in that. Don’t think he’s the end all but he deserves a legitimate shot with real weapons. That real chance will come with filling other needs and proper coaching. If we get a new qb and he gets to play with healthy skill players and adequate coaching then of course he’ll look better. it’ll be the same as getting excited about schiano winning more than Morris did his first year but schiano got a lot more free agency money to work with and was able to put together a more talented team. In the ultimate team game you can’t look at one person as the reason it all fell apart. Especially when that kid was in college at this time last year
January 18th, 2014 at 10:51 am
This (article) just goes to show that the Glazers have no ‘football’ sense. If they had fired Glennon and kept the offensive brilliance of Sullivan, then we could all go into next year knowing that the playoffs were guaranteed. And all they’d have to do is change the QB, since he was to reason for the impotence.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:52 am
Patrick in VA “In the ultimate team game you can’t look at one person as the reason it all fell apart.”
You are correct, but Joe and a few others will always state that it was Josh’s win/loss record or Glennon’s win/loss record. As if the coaching or playcalling had nothing to do with it. To me a QB will always take a lot of heat if a team plays poorly and the team loses, same goes for the praise if the team wins.
I’m not one of those fans that puts the win/loss record squarely on the QB unless it’s blantantly obvious he’s the problem. Trent Dilfer comes to mind.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:52 am
You know else else isn’t flashy, Peyton Manning. He may have scrambled for a combined ten yards in his career. Pretty sure that guy is destroying defenses and on his way to the super bowl along with an MVP trophy. Is the game getting away from guys like him? He’s talented and he’s smart enough to dissect a defense. Guess what guys, our qb has a masters degree that he got while being a starting qb that beat out Russell Wilson, ya know that guy that anti glennon fans would kill for. Players like that need to learn how to do it at this level but when they figure it out and can apply it they are dangerous.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:58 am
Thank you Captain Obvious!!!!! I can remember not long ago saying I rather play field position than get turnovers with no results. I got blasted in the comments. NERD WINS… I’m smarter than you!!!!!!!!
January 18th, 2014 at 11:03 am
The MGM crowd will blame the coaches for bad schemes or whatever. Plus it was Glennon’s rookie year, and he does not have enough weapons around him, and on half of the games there was a full moon or the sun was in his eyes….
I just don’t get the the casualness of how the MGM group does not see how desperately the Bucs need an upgrade at QB.
January 18th, 2014 at 11:05 am
Turnovers with/without points still means that the opposing offense didn’t score. *That* is half the battle right there.
January 18th, 2014 at 11:06 am
I hate to keep posting, but another thing comes to mind. I very much so believe that if Glennon was drafted in the first round and played the way he did this season many fans would have patience with him beyond one season.
With the likes of Wilson, Kap, Luck and RGII all finding success in their rookie seasons, it’s no wonder Buc fans expect instant success from a rookie QB. With the players and coaches Glennon was working with, he gets a pass from me until next season. No matter if the Bucs draft a QB or get one in FA or not.
I’m also trying to not be bias when I say the best QB in college football lives in Tallahassee since I’m a big Noles fan, but I’ve seen enough from Winston. I thought he was ready for the pros by week 4 of the season. That man barring injury will and should be 1st overall pick in the 2015 draft.
January 18th, 2014 at 11:08 am
Here we go again.. Joe bashing Glennon for the first post of the day. Joe why don’t u to look at Andrew Luck, Peyton Mannings rookie years and compare stats to Glennon. It’s funny all the people who support Glennon are former GMs and coaches, and everyone who doesn’t are you and your buddy Duemig. Glennon had a bad OC, bad QB coach, bad offensive line, bad receivers, and a Starting HB that couldn’t block. Give him a break the man got 19 TDs and 9 int. I’m going to stop coming here if every day all I read is all about how great Johnny Football is and how bad Glennon is
January 18th, 2014 at 11:08 am
Harry…I’m not part of the MGM crowd and I still blame the coaches and playcalling.
January 18th, 2014 at 11:14 am
@ Harry
I think most Buc fans think we need an upgrade at QB….either through much better play from Glennon or Draft or FA….the question is….how much of a price do we pay?
Do we trade 3 first round picks & perhaps a 2nd to move up for Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater or do we take a QB like Carr at 7 or one of them if they fall.
Frankly, I don’t think there is a FA that can beat our Glennon.
I think the Glennon supporters (you call them apologists) want to see him develop with some good coaching and some weapons.
We have many other needs 3rd WR, TE, O-line, DE, CB
So….its a matter of cost for the upgrade…
January 18th, 2014 at 11:31 am
ahhhh the glennon apologists abound in the mornings
and wow, Patrick’s wit is astounding! disparaging others with opposing views. so refreshing.
January 18th, 2014 at 11:34 am
as I’ve said before, this is our best chance to get a better qb. those are harder to find. o-line, d-line, te, and what ever other perceived hole there is can be achieved in free agency or the coming years.
January 18th, 2014 at 11:36 am
Ah. Here they come. Morning lurker. How’s that hangover?
January 18th, 2014 at 11:40 am
as to weapons…I will borrow this:
it’s not the arrow, it’s the indian.
January 18th, 2014 at 11:41 am
no hangover, no drinking,smoking, snorting, shooting either 🙂
January 18th, 2014 at 11:43 am
I noticed yesterday the same thing you did Patrick…pro-glennon in the am, and pro-new qb in the pm.
January 18th, 2014 at 11:57 am
I don’t know that that’s the case. I’m not pro glennon or pro new qb. I’m pro Bucs making the best decision and anti drafting a shiny new toy when we haven’t evaluated the one we have appropriately. I’ve only watched football closely for about for years now. Always been a fan of the Bucs and have watched for years but only really got deep enough to pay attention to prospective draft picks and the combine and whatnot for a few years. In that time i’ve seen the same hype around each year’s qbs and out of all the superstars to be there have only been a few worth actually talking about. To get all jazzed up about these kids is just buying in to what’s being sold to us
January 18th, 2014 at 11:59 am
1 indian does not make a tribe.
January 18th, 2014 at 12:00 pm
We don’t need a qb. We need linemen. We need a wr. We need a cb. Some people want a qb. You fill wants on the later rounds. You fill needs in the early rounds because those positions are weaknesses
January 18th, 2014 at 12:05 pm
Did everyone forget how Martin ran into brick wall on almost every run play. This team is screaming at the top of it’s lungs “we need O-line”.
January 18th, 2014 at 12:07 pm
Also, back to the Indian comment, if the arrow was poorly made and the Indian is shooting at targets that can’t hold on to the arrow then that doesn’t bode well for the Indian. Don’t let espn brainwash you in to believing that wins and losses fall on the qb. There are 21 other players making alot of money and are accountable for results as well
January 18th, 2014 at 12:44 pm
Yes Patrick..if wins and losses fall squarely on the QB if a team only wins 4 games, then Matt Ryan sucks. We all know that’s not true. Well perhaps some of us choose not to know. Or then they will say the Falcons only winning 4 games does not mean Matt Ryan sucks because he’s a proven winner and as won in the past. Ludicrous!
I say the same thing rings true for Matt Ryan as it does for Glennon. Just because his team went 4-12 does not mean he sucks and no I’m not comparing Ryan’s skills to Glennon’s either. I know someone will go down that road though. So I always have to clarify.
January 18th, 2014 at 12:47 pm
Why is the MGM so angry about drafting a QB?
Nobody has said to cut him. The Bucs would be drafting an upgrade for Orlavsky.
MG would have more than every opportunity to keep his job. He would have a tremendous advantage over a rookie.
I believe Lovie & company will draft a defensive player in the 1st round to help create a dominating pass rush unless Bridgewater falls to #7.
Drafting a QB in the 2nd or 4th (Murray) would suit me just fine.
I’ve been racking my brain to figure a way to move up to the Brownies #4 spot to grab Clowney before Oaktown and Atlanta but without a 3rd round selection I don’t know if it’s possible.
I believe the Browns need a QB. If the Bucs can assure them that they aren’t going after a QB and Oaktown or Atlanta are set at QB, Cleveland will get their same choice of QB’s and whatever the Bucs can add to sweeten the deal.
January 18th, 2014 at 12:54 pm
Clowney…I too think that Lovie will want go defense with that pick. I don’t want them to take the 3rd or 4th best QB with the 7th pick. O-line please.
January 18th, 2014 at 12:59 pm
@Clowney – nobody is debating whether we should draft a qb. We absolutely should. But not at #7. If we get one in the later rounds I would welcome him with open arms.
January 18th, 2014 at 1:01 pm
People keep saying Glennon is not flashy but he reminds me of Matt Ryan when he was his age.
January 18th, 2014 at 1:19 pm
that is the difference…I see the qb as a weakness. we spent money on o-line and high draft picks on d-line. we need to spend picks on the qb since there aren’t any better to pay in free agency.
funny how I saw the receiver bail glennon out just as much as dropping balls.
January 18th, 2014 at 1:42 pm
@lurker – you’re absolutely right. The receivers had to bail him out a number of times. I’m not debating that at all. the folks he wanted to throw to weren’t open because they knew Jackson was the only real talent we had. He had to throw some prayers up and hope jax won the fight. He had to come back and get some balls. No question. I don’t know if that’s because they hasn’t worked together to build chemistry. There are a lot if things we don’t know about that situation and that’s why I think we give him another year. Remember that, when given the choice, glennon chose not to play schiano’s style of football in college. When given the chance to branch outside of what schiano wanted to do glennon did well. All I’m saying is that we don’t know what we have and we might be throwing away a high draft pick when we already have our guy
January 18th, 2014 at 1:51 pm
Woody Cummings is wrong. The turnovers got the defense off the field (briefly) and allowed the defense to rest. That’s value.
I understand his point though.
I’m clearly not sold on Glennon, but the kids WAS a rookie. He had enough weapons around him to get some things done and NOT be the worse offense in the league though.
I’ll even go on to say he has the potential to be very good…but also to be very bad. The truth is we just do not know.
So to me, it only makes sense to “not know” with two guys instead of one, just to improve our chances. Better than NOT having a second option and waiting 3-4 years to see if Glennon is good enough.
If we do not make the playoffs, everyone here will be screaming for his head…and Lovie’s. That’s just how Tampa fans are.
January 18th, 2014 at 1:51 pm
@Patrick
that could be said about clayborn, bowers, receivers, o-line. it was the coaching/system. we don’t know what we have. i say qb is the most important position and we need to double-down, in the draft. if tedford can mold qb’s, he wants them fresh and young, not vets who are closed-minded.
I have no idea what qb they like in the draft, but it needs to be a high pick. any one of the players in the draft (e.g. clowney, mack, barr) have negatives and could bust/flop just like any of the qb’s.
January 18th, 2014 at 2:08 pm
That’s a fair and valid point. I’m still not sure that Lovie will agree. If he’s going to come out with his defense wins 8 games comment then he’ll want the pieces in place to back that up.
January 18th, 2014 at 2:13 pm
I would, however, disagree that a change needs to be made because tedford needs a fresh mind to mold. Its not like glennon is a crusty veteran. That’s part of the unknown with him is it was just his rookie year this year
January 18th, 2014 at 4:26 pm
I’d rather have freeman than glennon at least josh had some flash games. Set franchise records and that stuff. Never could take us to the playoffs glennon is the same way to me. Pretty good. But don’t see him changing the offensive culture around here. Need a.new an for.a new coach
January 18th, 2014 at 5:07 pm
That’s 29% more than Free Free would have scored buddy old pal 😉
Are you proposing we should have started Dan?
lol
January 18th, 2014 at 5:18 pm
No haha just saying we should’ve played freeman out this past season. We had to pay him regardless then we wouldn’t be having this glennon talk (as much at least).
I don’t care who is the qb next year. Just want a winner
January 18th, 2014 at 6:18 pm
lol at comparing luck to Glennon. Last I saw luck was leading his team to 4th quarter victories. How many 4th quarter victories does Glennon have?
Anybody?
Yep, none. Check the splits on espn player stats. Glennon plays his worst in the 4th quarter. And he plays even worst on 3rd down. 1st and 2nd are ok, 1st half is kinda good. But when it gets to 3rd down he’s terrible, when the 3rd quarter starts he’s bad, and in the forth he’s terrible. I can live with the Glennon of the first half of games, but the fact is that he consistently lost us games in the 4th quarter. We have had plenty of chances by half time but they always got squandered away by terrible qb play. Yes play calling was bad, but it was bad because the coaches knew their qb was terrible. He isn’t worth building around. He doesn’t have the intangibles to be great. He had a good statistical season but if you watch the games instead of the box scores you’d see why Glennon gets so much hate. He’s not good in crunch time. He doesn’t have that clutch gene.
January 18th, 2014 at 6:30 pm
Also. Someone brought up that if the bucs lose that lovie will be rode out of town. I sure hope not. I don’t care if lovie has 3 consecutive losing seasons, he is a quality coach and will turn it around. I dreamt for the day we had a franchise coach and I think we have that in lovie. He may not be the best coach in the league, but he is respected enough and a great enough coach that he deserves to stay as long as he wants. At least I hope that’s how it turns out. Obviously a string of losing seasons will make it tough to support him, but I don’t think that will happen. If we continually have winning season like the bears had under him I wouldn’t fire him, the bucs were dumb to fire dungy and gruden who were winning franchise type coaches. Gruden had some rough seasons but he always fixed things. Dungy was great for a long time, firing him was possible the worst thing the bucs ever did. We need to give good coaches time. It dumb to replace a coach for not winning in the playoffs. I would kill to be in the playoffs again. And there are fans crying because their team lost in the playoffs again. Man just being there is a great feat. Let’s not be greedy. Let’s enjoy the ride and hope for the best. A winning season isn’t so bad.
January 18th, 2014 at 6:45 pm
@joe
The O-line was a joke!
Our #2 and 3 WR’s were slow.
Sullivan sucked.
It wasnt just Glennon man.
Glennon was the best rookie QB draft pick in the NFL last year. Statistically. Not bad in my book. And he was the NFL Rookie QB of the year.
And Schiano grabbed him in the 3rd?
Sweet. Now we should sign McCown, Vick and Tebow.
January 18th, 2014 at 6:49 pm
Patrick in VA:
Go back and study how Glennon played against teams with a decent defense then try to explain to Joe (and others) how Glennon is “good.”
At least when Freeman was a rookie he carried a team to a win over a playoff team.
January 18th, 2014 at 6:59 pm
Playcalling may have been a factor,,, but the same guy calling plays in 2012 when the team was 9th in the league, called plays for the 32nd ranked, Mike Glennon led, offense,
Also, gripe all you want about deep shots, they very well may have been called and an audible was called or Captain Checkdown 2.0 didn’t take the shot. When he did throw the ball deep, his weak arm would often betray him as the ball was nearly always terribly under thrown.
Mike Glennon is not the answer. Don’t let his meaningless stats fool you. He takes way too many sacks, he has a weak arm, below average release, no athleticism or even strength in the pocket, and won’t even try to stretch the field.
Bruce Gradkowski showed more potential than this guy and he played for a coach that drafted him. We all know how that turned out for us.
January 18th, 2014 at 7:46 pm
@Patrick
my veteran comment was in reference to needing at least 2 decent qb’s, and that we will get our 2nd qb through the draft vs free agency, this year; not that glennon is a vet.
“Glennon was the best rookie QB draft pick in the NFL last year. Statistically. Not bad in my book. And he was the NFL Rookie QB of the year.”
not offense to special needs, but as they say, that is like coming in first in the special olympics. everyone says last year was a down year for qb’s in the draft.
January 18th, 2014 at 7:47 pm
It’s funny people want to compare Glennon’s stats with Manning in his rookie year. Glennon had a little better rating but despite throwing the ball about 150 less times than Peyton he took 18 more sacks. Even more importantly, Manning’s offense was 12th in the league, Glennon’s? Dead last.
By the way, not saying he will or won’t be decent, but Ryan Nassib was EEli’s backup this season….perhaps you’ve heard of him.
January 18th, 2014 at 9:41 pm
Harry said:
The MGM crowd will blame the coaches for bad schemes or whatever. Plus it was Glennon’s rookie year, and he does not have enough weapons around him, and on half of the games there was a full moon or the sun was in his eyes….
As a member of the MGM I say, thank you for pointing that out. Just proves our point.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:06 pm
@Joe – I’m not here to defend the output this past year. Some of that nonsense was unwatchable. sometimes it dampened the excitement of a turnover because I knew it meant our offense was going back on the field. I totally get what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that it wasn’t all his fault. There were linemen that were letting the defense get into glennon’s face as soon as the ball was snapped, there was bad play calling that allowed good defenses to eat us alive and there was some bad qb play in there as well from our rookie qb. It just seems absurd to me to think that all this less on the shoulders of a kid who wasn’t taking preseason reps with the first team and didn’t get help from his qb coach. The preseason is when chemistry is developed and the only person he spent any time working with was Tim Wright and look how that worked out for the tight end that none of us heard of.
January 18th, 2014 at 10:40 pm
Freeman absolutely blows and 2010 is no longer a viable excuse for Free Free
Don’t bring it up again lol