Depth Vs. No Depth
November 5th, 2024
Bucs GM Jason Licht
The Bucs sure are a tale of two sides of the ball.
Look at the brilliant depth on offense. The Bucs lost Mike Evans and Chris Godwin and they’ve rolled up major points in two games without them. Yesterday, that success was against a beastly Chiefs defense in Kansas City.
Sterling Shepard was money last night. Rakim Jarrett made another tough-guy catch and run. Trey Palmer did his job and practice squad call-up Ryan Miller caught the game-tying touchdown pass.
Tight end Cade Otton has stepped up into new roles in dramatic fashion while the Bucs’ offensive line is in high gear looking like a Super Bowl-caliber unit.
The Bucs’ running backs? They may be a top-3 unit in the NFL when it comes to depth.
But on defense, damn, Joe never would have believed the Week 1 injury to veteran backup cornerback Bryce Hall would have been a crushing blow. Tyrek Funderburk and Josh Hayes are not ready to play in the absence of Jamel Dean. Their play the last two games has had Joe yearning for the days of Leonard Johnson and E.J. Biggers.
The depth at edge rush? It’s an abomination that the Bucs don’t think they have a better option than Joe Tryon-Shoyinka. How is that possible? Joe would love to hear what Shaq Barrett is thinking on his Tampa couch right now.
Depth at inside linebacker? There is none.
A huge cause/issue is money. The Bucs are paying a salary-cap price on defense for the excess of the Tom Brady years. Lots of youth and inexperience on defense, and a lack of blue-chip talent in the backups. Still, the defense is underperforming, which is not on the front office. The Bucs have a little cash available to try and improve, which is on the front office.
The depth disparity on this Bucs team is an evil blend of stunning and maddening.
Depth, of course, has nothing to do with choosing to hand the ball to Patrick Mahomes at the end of the game. That’s not on the front office, either.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:18 am
Lion just got DE Za’Darius Smith! Another team getting better! Wake up!
November 5th, 2024 at 8:20 am
And Defense IS “SUPPOSEDLY” Bowles strong suit.
If Bowles and HIS staff can’t coach them up, why is he here.
It’s BBB time!
Bye Bye Bowles.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:23 am
Jason light is afraid to give up draft picks to make this team better. It is going to sync his ship as well as Todd Bowles
November 5th, 2024 at 8:29 am
Licht knows he needs draft picks for his next coach. Be real. He’s not making decisions on his own. This is an organizational plan. This year was to see if Bowles and Baker are the answer.
I’m more surprised they didn’t trade anyone away and look towards next year.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:30 am
Trade for a 32 year old pass rusher? No!
We have 5-6 round guys who can’t get on the field! What is Jose Ramirez not picking up, that he can’t get on the field?
We need to draft: CB, 2 LB, and 2 DE. The influx of Defense players is coming.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:30 am
#99 the big fella – here’s the thing… Licht has to play the long game right now he will never publically admit it BUT why would Licht invest more into a Todd Bowles defense at this point? Think about it… Bowles has been here for how long, six seasons? His defenses are below average so if we are going to make a change next year it makes no sense to add more resources into this thing. And honestly speaking do any of us seriously think we are a single player away from fixing this defense? It’s scheme, it’s play calling, it’s a lot more than just a player fix. It’s also not a player issue IMO its a Todd Bowles issue. He has had six years his unit should be humming. The sad truth is we don’t even need his D to be elite that’s how good the offense is playing. We just need an average d to hold the line and make a couple plays.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:34 am
Money is never an issue for LB depth. They can be had cheaply at all times. Licht is choosing not to make move because he doesn’t want to do his job.
Why does Licht not want to do his job? Too much unearned job security. Which allows him do his favorite activity: stabbing yet another bad HC in the back.
He did it to Lovie, Dirk dad glasses, Arians retirement sham, and now he’s doing it to Bowles.
Licht’s on, but no one’s home.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:34 am
It’s crazy that contending teams like K.C., Buffalo, and now Detroit go out and get players during the season to strengthen their teams, but we go to the practice squad. DeAndre Hopkins hasn’t been in K.C. long enough to get a cup of coffee, but he made an impact in the game last night. I understand we have salary cap constraints, but the lack of action by Jason Licht signals to me that we’re not serious about winning this year. Maybe next year…
November 5th, 2024 at 8:35 am
BOWELS BYE BYE AFTER THIS YEAR. bring in BB NEXT SEASON
November 5th, 2024 at 8:36 am
So we fire Bowles and then what? Who is going to replace him? Coen? I love what Coen has done for the offense, but that does not mean he will automatically be the fix the defense needs. The lack of depth is hurting the defense, certainly, but there is only so much a team can do. I would like to see some trades to help, at least, try and fix the defense, or, if nothing more, improve it some. If we fire Bowles, the team may be set back another 3-4 years as it is not a certainty that the new coach (if not Coen) will win or run the same system – so more changes will need to be made. I don’t have the answer either, but it seems, at this point, firing Bowles is not going to help this team right now.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:37 am
Agree with the theme that we are done with Todd after this season, save all draft capital for the next regime
I don’t care if we win against the slop that is the second half of our schedule – we will never win a SB trophy with Todd Bowles as HC
November 5th, 2024 at 8:41 am
The Chiefs played their best football game of their season last night. They had plenty of help from the referees. We’re playing without our offensive stars. McCaffery will be back next week for our game with the Niners and without him they’re still one of the best running teams in the league. We’ve got our work cut out for us and last night’s game is history. The team has their full focus on this coming Sunday-I think we are still getting better and can win 7 of the last eight. I just hope 11 wins gets us in. We can still be the hottest team entering the playoffs!
November 5th, 2024 at 8:41 am
Making a free agent move is larger than the player himself. It says out loud to the rest of the team that there is realistic hope and expectations about going places. Can’t understand how Shaq is not back. He practically said he was willing, earlier this year. I’m a Licht fan but this seems to be a mistake.
Speaking of mistakes, Bowles’ time here may be running out. Ever since he was gun shy about firing Leftwich mid-season, I keep noticing the sane mistake over and over. Not knowing when to take action. Can’t launch the crappy coach in time. Can’t decide in time to let the greatest qb ever go for it. Can’t figure out when to use time outs. Can’t decide in time to go for 2. The list goes on, but it’s all the same.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:41 am
We could’ve had our cake and eat it too. Sign LBs off the street to keep the defense afloat. Trade an irrelevant day 3 pick to make up for the disastrous unforced error of Licht spending a premium pick on McMillan.
Remain in contention for cheap. Win another playoff game. Then make sure Bowles retires into the sunset for Coen like this organization has already done.
Nope. Our GM is too dysfunctional for that.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:45 am
I wouldn’t blame the Depth on Defense, entirely, although Josh Hayes should’ve been given or taken an opportunity to play more physical man coverage against Chief’s receivers because his zone coverage doesn’t work.
Vea and Kancey played hard and they were both gassed at end of game.
Starting Edge Rushers? Other than contain Mahomes most of the game, not much.
The zone coverage doesn’t work too well against Kelsey or Hopkins if the Edge Rushers aren’t effective
November 5th, 2024 at 8:49 am
Biggest move the bucs need to make is locking down Coen and making dam sure he doesn’t leave to become a great young head coach for years somewhere else.
November 5th, 2024 at 8:50 am
Depth is the exact problem of this team, not coaching…..
WR played well, just YESTERDAY, since ME13 and CG14 were out they did nothing……
Now what about LB?
What about pass rushers?
What about CB?
How are both safetys playing?
the coach is the least of the problems…the big problem is the lack of depth
November 5th, 2024 at 8:51 am
@doolnutts, I disagree. Look at the Bucs in there heyday many teams tried to run the Tampa 2 defense, but they did not have the personnel the Bucs had, to run it. Personnel matters. there are injuries in key positions that put late round and undrafted FA’s in the position to have to start (in very important games on the big stage). the defense hums when all the pieces are in place and there is depth there. take away the planned backups Bryce Hall and dennis, there injuries were early enough to be able to replace them with simple trades or picking up a Jamin Davis or Devin White, but no moves
November 5th, 2024 at 9:05 am
So, addressing the defensive depth…I can’t blame Jason Licht at all.
Todd Bowles faked a QB competition to get Baker in as his starter.
Jason Licht knew that if Mayfield had a chance to work out, he would need a steller offensive line. Jason knows how to build OLs, and he drafted well. I mean, it needs time to develop, but it hasn’t been bad most of the time.
But building it meant neglecting defense in the draft.
Normally, we could use free agents to handle it, but…cap issues.
I’m big enough to admit Mayfield has done well. I may not like the FACT that Bowles lied to us about the QB Competition, but that isn’t Bakers fault. The truth is, he has exceeded any expectations I thought him capable of.
He’s not elite, but he is solid.
November 5th, 2024 at 9:09 am
Slacker Says:
November 5th, 2024 at 8:49 am
“Biggest move the bucs need to make is locking down Coen and making dam sure he doesn’t leave to become a great young head coach for years somewhere else. ”
No.
Doing that means another experimental head coach. If the Glazers want to go big again and hire a big name coach, pro.oting Coen would be a waste of money.
A new HC will almost certainly want his own OC
November 5th, 2024 at 9:09 am
We have no idea what’s behind JTS because Bowles won’t play anyone. There’s a 3 man rotation.
Licht will get the business this offseason when he tries to brag about these undrafted nobodies who never see the field. Who’s gonna fall for it? I don’t want to hear anything about watts and Ramirez this offseason. Braswell will be another JTS/anthony Nelson type draft pick.
November 5th, 2024 at 9:14 am
Here’s the thing:
The injuries on offense are FAR MORE severe than the defense. And the depth that is stepping up on offense is the same types (scrubs and p/s players) as the depth on defense.
That’s coaching.
Offensive coaches are getting it done coaching up the scrubs. Apart from Mayfield, your offensive skill position guys are mid:late round picks and P/S scrubs. Hell – Shepard was all but retired and lured here by Mayfield.
Defensive coaches aren’t. Their scrubs are playing like scrubs and worse yet, their high end picks (JTS, Hall and sadly Winfield) are playing terrible too. Whitehead has been a complete train wreck and making ‘business decisions’. This is a guy their defensive staff BEGGED Licht to resign.
I guarantee you Bowles has significant say so in the defensive players Licht acquires.
November 5th, 2024 at 9:15 am
Joe … ‘Lots of youth and inexperience on defense, and a lack of blue-chip talent in the backups. Still, the defense is underperforming, which is not on the front office. The Bucs have a little cash available to try and improve, which is on the front office.’
Of course the defense is underperforming; youth, inexperience & lack of blue-chip talent will do that at the NFL level. It ALWAYS starts in the front office. The CHOICE was made there to put our available salary CAP $$$ AND draft picks into the OFFENSE as opposed to the defense. And in the process …
We got rid of CB Carlton Davis. We got rid of OLB Shaq. We got rid of MLB White. We didn’t re-sign NT RNR (DLine depth) or CB Delaney (Secondary depth). We didn’t bring in any quality Edge FAs to help ‘fix’ a known pass rush deficiency. We didn’t draft any ILBs or CBs or DTs this past year, knowing that our depth there was circumspect … at best.
It ALWAYS starts in the front office. Blaming the HC, DC, defensive coaching staff for not being able to develop low round draft picks and undrafted rookies (who should be on the Practice Squad) to START NFL games in their 1st or 2nd year is ludicrous. This defense is starting at least 3 guys every game who have no business starting in the NFL (and you’ve already stated who they are Joe). Any DC can modify their scheme/tactics for using the other 8 players to ‘compensate’ for those 3 players, but we all know how that’ll work out at the NFL level. And that’s what we’re seeing right now.
November 5th, 2024 at 9:17 am
Coen getting moved to head coach is well worth the experiment. Big name coach as in who? Ones that are sitting out there unemployed. Unemployed for a reason. Names mean nothing. The young blood with long roots from successful trees is where it’s at.
November 5th, 2024 at 9:23 am
FINALLY!!! Some semblance of blame on the front office. Does Bowles tale of the tape as the HC of the Bucs and Jets look like a train wreck, Yes. Did he make another bad call at the end of last nights game by not going for two, Yes. But is the team he is fielding his sole responsibility, No. This team with the lack of depth and no edge rush ability has Licht’s DNA all over it.
November 5th, 2024 at 9:24 am
Super Bowl Champs. Think they sit tight with their backups. NO! After Rice went down, and they lost Pacheco, they go out and trade for DeAndre Hopkins. And we saw what he did with little practice with the Chiefs. But, we’re good with our pass rush. Maddening, I tell you!
November 5th, 2024 at 10:20 am
A. Fisk … ‘Did he (Bowles) make another bad call at the end of last nights game by not going for two, Yes.’
And IF Bowles had gone for it but NOT MADE IT, and we’d also lost, what do you think the headlines on JoeBucFan would be this morning?
Ya, we both know. No matter what decision he’d made, if we win he’s right; if we lose, he’s wrong. Such is the life of a head coach. The real problem last night was that NFL’s overtime rule is badly screwed up. Whoever wins the coin toss in OT has a significantly better chance of winning the game. Study done after the 2022 season, for that year, showed that of 163 total OT games, the team that won the coin toss won 86 times & tied 10 times (probability of winning was 56%).
However, in the playoffs that year (better teams playing?), there were 11 OT games … and the team winning the coin toss won 10 of those. Yes, winning the coin toss makes a big difference using current NFL overtime rules.
November 5th, 2024 at 10:23 am
So Joe, you still want to put Licht in the Ring of Honor? Why not just out JTS in there with him?
November 5th, 2024 at 11:03 am
We keep losing it’s fine whatever.
Bucs all day everyday!
We probably won’t win the division nothing guaranteed, but likely won’t. Schedule is very tough and injury bug has crept for far too long.
This is looking like a stronger offseason building year though and in a year where you can see who wants to keep their job and who gets the boot.
LVD hope he stays another season and Chris Godwin gets his contract.
We’re really not that far off from having a great defense again.
November 5th, 2024 at 11:18 am
Ask Shaq to come back.
Give him 4 weeks to prepare.
I want to see more of Watts and Ramirez on 3rd down.
I respect JTS. He’s undersized and young to play a DE type position.
Our OLB’s need to be strong like DE’s to take on tackles. And they need to be able to drop in coverage. AND be good edge rushers.
OLB in Bowles defense is tough!
JTS is very young. And he’s not that strong. He needs 15 pounds of muscle. He needs to bulk up like Yaya Diaby did.
So JTS is mediocre against the run. And he has no pass rush moves.
So, we need to let Ramirez and Watts on the field on 3rd down and passions situations.
JTS is a role player like Nelson. Not a starter. Braswell too. Not a starter.
We lack a Pro Bowl level OLB.
Our OLB Depth Chart
1. ??
2. Yaya
3. Braswell
4. Nelson
5. JTS
6. Ramirez
7. Watts
CB Depth Chart
😢
November 5th, 2024 at 11:32 am
The difference is not depth vs no depth…It’s that that Liam Coen is creative and schemes his OFF approach to his available personnel…While Bowles square pegs into round holes trying to fit personnel into his never changing DEF philosophy.
November 5th, 2024 at 11:36 am
It is not depth it is scheme. Coach Bowles scheme does not work anymore. Even the announcers said they could not understand why the defense was doing so poorly considering the players on the team.
November 5th, 2024 at 11:40 am
Am I the only one who watched the Bucs draft 95% offensive players earlier this year? While I was excited for Liam Cohen, the defense was leaning only on Chris Braswell to improve? Maybe we could have skipped on Jalen McMillan and picked up another Edge rusher instead.
November 5th, 2024 at 1:00 pm
The trading deadline is today, any linebacker that can run and plays for a defensive coordinator should be dealt with for a low draft pick. Likewise a CB that can play in this stupid zone defense, experience neccessary, not speed.
Not filling those needs today is a resignation that Licht has no faith in the defensive staff and wants to hold on to the draft picks. Licht has been a good GM bringing in offensive linemen and he drafted the right back in Irving but the busts on the defensive line Hall and JTS and the bust on Devin White have really doomed this defense. Looking back now, was it worth it to reward an average CB, Jamel Dean with a top 20 CB payday? Was it worth it to make Antoine Winfield the second highest paid Buc and the highest paid safety? Licht has gotten some good bargains in the past with free agents but keeping the band together has cost the Bucs dearly when these players are clearly not helping the team win defensively.
November 5th, 2024 at 1:12 pm
Cory … ‘Maybe we could have skipped on Jalen McMillan and picked up another Edge rusher instead.’
I would’ve settled for drafting an ILB in the 3rd Round. Edgerrin Cooper was the 1st ILB drafted (in the 2nd Rnd) and is doing very well this year. Junior Colson was the 2nd ILB drafted (in the 3rd Rnd), Trevin Wallace (3rd ILB drafted in 3rd Rnd), Marist Liafau (4th ILB drafted in 3rd Rnd) and Ty’Ronn Hopper (5th ILB drafted in the 3rd Rnd), all drafted BEFORE Jalen McMillan. First ILB drafted after McMillan was Payton Wilson by the Steelers … a potential Top-50 pick who’s playinmg quite well for the Steelers. They were there … Bucs went offense.
November 5th, 2024 at 1:23 pm
ocala … ‘It is not depth it is scheme. Coach Bowles scheme does not work anymore.’
I’d contend that it’s BOTH. Bowles hybrid 3-4 defense worked pretty well in the past … when he had the horses to make it work. Right now we don’t have the horses. I still contend that we have at least 3 guys starting right now who have no business starting. Plus several others don’t fit the scheme. Bowles is compensating all over the place for guys like Britt, Hayes & JTS, but it’s impossible IMO to ‘compensate’ that much at the NFL level.
We’re blitzing way too much trying to create a pass rush, and it’s leaving huge holes in our defense that virtually any QB can take advantage of IF the blitz doesn’t hit home. And that’s exactly what’s happening … our blitzers aren’t getting through for the most part. Would much rather see us move back to a 4-3 defense with a LOT less reliance on blitzing. Of course IF we do that, we better replace Todd Bowles as DC because the 4-3 is not his bread-and-butter. But it is for George Edwards. Just saying …
November 5th, 2024 at 2:09 pm
Marshon Lattimore and a 2025 5th round pick just traded to the Commanders and
Saints receive a 3rd, 4th and 6th round pick from the Commanders next year.
November 5th, 2024 at 2:11 pm
And, of course, no movement to improve the embarrassing defense. Could have had Lattimore. One wonders who is the most deluded, Bowles or Licht?
November 5th, 2024 at 2:48 pm
This still circles back to the coach. We all know the rule, good or bad, the HC should know the pulse of his team. Last night at the end of the game, the bucs’ offense was locked in and the defense was gassed (see defensive snap count), TB’s team was playing a well vetted winner on their turf with a qb known to will his squad to close victories. What could go wrong?!! (Sarcasm) So HC, decides to ice his hot offense and subject his gassed defense on a coin flip. Nah, blaming the rule is an excuse
November 5th, 2024 at 3:25 pm
Shaq is on the couch for a reason calm down Joe.
November 6th, 2024 at 3:50 pm
Let’s return to the draft of 2023:
Round 1, Pick 19: Calijah Kancey, DT, Pittsburgh – always injured
Round 2, Pick 50: Cody Mauch, OT, North Dakota State – ok
Round 3, Pick 82: YaYa Diaby, EDGE, Louisville – needs to improve, ok
Round 5, Pick 153: Sirvocea Dennis, LB, Pittsburgh – always injured
Round 5, Pick 171: Payne Durham, TE, Purdue – who?
Round 6, Pick 181: Josh Hayes, CB, Kansas State – who? why?
Round 6, Pick 191: Trey Palmer, WR, Nebraska – always injured
Round 6, Pick 196: Jose Ramirez, EDGE, Eastern Michigan – who? why?
Undrafted
RB Sean Tucker, Syracuse (Greg Auman, FOX Sports) – doing well
• RB Ronnie Brown, Shepherd (ESPN)
• WR Rakim Jarrett, Maryland (Greg Auman, FOX Sports)
• WR Kade Warner, Kansas State (Priority Sports)
• WR Ryan Miller, Furman (Greg Auman, FOX Sports)
• WR Taye Barber, TCU (Greg Auman, FOX Sports)
• TE Tanner Taula, Illinois State (Brett Tessler)
• OL Silas Dzansi, Virginia Tech (Tampa Bay Times)
• OT Luke Haggard, Indiana (Duke Manyweather)
• OG/C Chris Murray, Oklahoma (Jordan Schultz, The Score)
• LB Jeremy Banks, Tennessee (Pewter Report)
• DL Nelson Mbanasor, Texas State (Keff Ciardello, Texas State)
• LB Brandon Bouyer-Randle, MSU/Texas Tech (Greg Auman, FOX Sports)
• CB Derek Pitts Jr., NC State (NC State)
• S Kaevon Merriweather, Iowa (PFN)
• DB Keenan Isaac, Alabama State (Light On College Sports)
• S Chris Izien, Rutgers (Greg Auman, FOX Sports)
• K Jake Bates, Arkansas, (PFN)
• LS Evan Deckers, Duke (Greg Auman, FOX Sports)
Yet, you got a guy like: Christian Izien (undrafted) who could have taken just about any spot on this list from round 3 down. I wonder who’s the genius who drafted these guys.