Does Liam Coen Have A Scheme Or A System?
August 26th, 2024
Baker Mayfield chatter.
Man, when Joe hears “system” when it comes to head coaches and coordinators, it make Joe want to barf.
A coach who uses his “system” as a crutch is a worthless coach if not lazy, Joe believes. In other words, this is a guy who cannot adjust to the talent he has.
Then there is a scheme, which is flexible depending on the players and their skillsets.
Who said? Shaun King said.
The pride of St. Petersburg and one of but four human beings to ever lead the Bucs to an NFC title game, King, a former offensive assistant coach at South Florida, appeared on CHUM-AM in Toronto to talk Bucs.
There, King was asked about Baker Mayfield having to deal with a new coordinator (again) and if that may set him back.
“It’s not ideal,” King said. “You’d love to be in the same system. If you are Baker, you are happy because [Dave] Canales got promoted. He went from being a coordinator to a head coach [of the Panthers]. You never look at that from a negative [angle] because it is what every coach aspires to be.
“You wish him the best and you hope that the next guy that comes in has a scheme, not a system.”
So what’s the difference? In short, King said a scheme is flexible and a system is inflexible.
“Here is what I mean by that,” King began. “The good coordinators have schemes. The bad coordinators have systems.
“A coordinator who has a system means he only knows one thing. That’s his system. And if it is not working, that means the players don’t fit his system.
“The good coordinators have schemes. And you can move from scheme to scheme to fit the current personnel on the roster for that team. We’ll see with the Bucs. They were pretty good offensively last year. They found a way to be explosive.”
Joe has a hunch that current Bucs offensive coordinator Liam Coen has a scheme. He seems flexible with a knack for having his best players make plays.
To this day when Joe hears “system,” Joe thinks of The Smiths, lousy Lovie Smith and the notorious Mike Smith.
Just thinking of those two and how they wreaked havoc on the Bucs franchise gives Joe the shivers.
August 26th, 2024 at 9:11 am
When I think of “The Smiths “ I hear, “The Queen is Dead”, “Shoplifters of the World Unite” and “How Soon is Now”.
August 26th, 2024 at 9:15 am
Not sure if I agree with King on systems and schemes, I think combinatiopn of both is what works, their not opposites…..they can complement each other
August 26th, 2024 at 9:20 am
Totally agree. The Joe and King are spot on.
The question should be what are my guys good at and how can I maximize their abilities.
August 26th, 2024 at 9:29 am
Changing players to fit your system is why the Bucs have had so many losing seasons. Dungy had a scheme but it was only for the defense. Gruden had a system which is why it was short-lived. He had to go out and get his players. Canales used a system because there was absolutely no reason to move Godwin outside or run White up the middle when that isn’t his strong suit.
August 26th, 2024 at 9:51 am
thank you Durango
August 26th, 2024 at 9:54 am
In a nutshell, When I hear system I think of the entire playbook, when I hear scheme I think of the specific plays from the playbook tailored to a specific game.
August 26th, 2024 at 10:19 am
Google “scheme vs system” if you are interested clarifying the difference. Basically a system is a collection of organized things while a scheme is a systematic plan.
August 26th, 2024 at 10:21 am
Right on, JD Still.
August 26th, 2024 at 10:25 am
Semantics. Adjustments during a game to expose weaknesses of each team is something that has to be addressed. There have been games where opponents best players may have been sidelined during a game and the staff didn’t go after the backups because the game plan called for plan A no matter who is in the field.
Using the strengths of your players is another issue you see with coaching. Gruden was a great example, Mike Alstott was very effective as a running back and Gruden had him blocking. The system called for a fullback, but Mike was a better than average running back.
Devin White was horrible in pass coverage but they kept him on the field in passing downs and dropped him back. He had no idea of his assignments and was a liability.
Whether you call it a scheme or a system. It is more being reactive to game situations and using the the system to let the players make the type of plays that their skill sets match up with.
August 26th, 2024 at 10:42 am
Absolutely agree!
August 26th, 2024 at 10:44 am
I don’t know how a system coach could even get a job in todays NFL. You have to have some lazy uneducated owners if they are signing off on antiquated system approach coaches
August 26th, 2024 at 10:55 am
Let’s score more points. >25ppg definitely achievable
August 26th, 2024 at 11:05 am
I think the thing I would attach to Liam’s offense so far is unpredictable leverage.
1. Zone blocking schemes in the run game to get cutbacks
2. Man beaters in man coverage.
3. Flooding zones in zone coverage.
4. Giving your QB options to take advantage of each situation.
We haven’t had this kind of flexibility in our offense in a long time if ever.
August 26th, 2024 at 11:24 am
Joe, curious of your thoughts if Dave Canales was operating under a System or Scheme.
Maybe a hybrid? It took Canales almost 10 games before he finally gave up on concept of running up the middle, even though it failed time and time again. Canales also finally moved Godwin back to the slot where he was one of the best slot WR the year prior.
August 26th, 2024 at 11:27 am
The New England Patriots generally use a modified Erhardt-Perkins offensive system.
Since 2001 until 2019 Patriots went to many Super Bowls and won most.
8 Straight Division Titles, one Second Place, and then 11 more Straight Division Tiltes.
Except for two years of Moss they never had HOFer or a Evans/Godwin combo.
Certainly never had a Mayfield or they might have been undefeated in Super Bowls.
Patriots always had a Game Plan and if it didn’t work one week it was on to Cincinatti to try again. Eaxch week they would look at weakness and find a way to exploit it with the limited talent they had.
A scheme is just a way of stealing from Systems Mike Shanahan and make it sound like it’s your own.
Even the Bill Walsh West Coast was a spin off of Paul Brown’s and was not designed to best use strengths but to come up with and offense for a Bengals QB that couldn’t throw very far.
August 26th, 2024 at 12:07 pm
The Bucs success last year was a direct result of Canales running the ball consistently even though the run game sucked. That and Bakers incredible 3rd down clutch ability to keep drives alive. Without burning clock by running, the defense will be gassed in the 4th quarter. Hopefully Liam uses this in his scheme or system or whatever.
August 26th, 2024 at 12:08 pm
Bill Walsh and Paul Brown were true geniuses. They saved us from 3 yards and a cloud of dust. Reid, Gruden, Shanahan all were inspired by those guys.
August 26th, 2024 at 12:14 pm
I agree with everything except when he said the Bucs offense was pretty good last year… It was garbage in 80% of the games
They got on a little run and seem to improve towards the end offensively so people were acting like Canales was the second coming. 😂
I don’t know if they were finally gelling with it or if it was just talent. Either way for him to be promoted to a head coach after that one below average season as an OC is ridiculous, but I’m glad he has gone because I believe we have a much better OC.
I do agree about the scheme versus the system, although players should be good enough to adapt to a system as well
August 26th, 2024 at 12:27 pm
The most exciting thing about an Ohio State football game used to be Woody punching an opposing player!
August 26th, 2024 at 12:29 pm
A few posters have hit on it.
Whether you call it system or scheme, the important point is to be prepared for each individual team.
That’s called game planning.
Studying the opposing teams strengths, weaknesses, and tendencies, and developing a plan to take advantage of their weaknesses while bolstering against their strengths.
Using the same game plan week in and week out will make you a very predictable team.
Since Bowles took over, we have been one of the most predictable teams in the league. It’s a testament to the talent of our players that we have done as well as we have.
Game planning is the job of both the OC ‘AND’ the DC AND requires oversight by the head coach.
With the talent on our roster, AND proper game planning, there’s no reason why we can’t go deep into the post season and vie for the championship.
August 26th, 2024 at 12:37 pm
Seems like you’d want a combination of the two: draft players to fit whatever you’re trying to do (system?), and then adapt to get the best out of wherever you wind up (scheme?).
August 26th, 2024 at 12:40 pm
Halftime adjustments are key as well.
August 26th, 2024 at 12:51 pm
No matter if it’s a system or scheme, a competent head coach makes adjustments to maximize the talents of his players. Something the Bucs have not done on a consistent level level over the years, see Byron Leftwich.
August 26th, 2024 at 1:11 pm
Ok I’ll buy it, seems like a semantical argument, but I’ll buy it, if we win 11 games.
August 26th, 2024 at 3:15 pm
SenileSenior Says:
“Google “scheme vs system” if you are interested clarifying the difference. Basically a system is a collection of organized things while a scheme is a systematic plan.”
So it’s obviously not one of the other… Components (system) vs Usage of said components (scheme).
August 26th, 2024 at 3:16 pm
They’re interdependent
August 26th, 2024 at 4:15 pm
Ok, well that was a fun little exercise. Don’t forget to put your crayons away before you leave.
August 26th, 2024 at 6:36 pm
This was exactly the problem I had with Canales. He did not adjust for our personnel. The biggest example is misuse of Godwin, where he showed so much production on screens and other playing in prior seasons. Liam seems like he is trying to put guys in good matchups. Between that, the improvements in the middle and a more clear running scheme I expect our offense to be much improved. Heard it here first Bucs will be a top 10 unit!
August 26th, 2024 at 7:04 pm
This was exactly the problem I had with Canales. He did not adjust for our personnel. The biggest example is misuse of Godwin, where he showed so much production on screens and other playing in prior seasons. Liam seems like he is trying to put guys in good matchups and I expect great res