Same Offensive Line, Eh?
August 14th, 2023
“You’ll get the hang of line calls, Kyle. Takes time.”
Very interesting if not telling intel from none other than Warren Sharp on Bucs quarterbacks Baker Mayfield and Kyle Trask.
And this just may be for those who scream experience doesn’t matter in choosing a starting quarterback.
Joe has maintained for months that if Kyle Trask was going to beat out Baker Mayfield for the Bucs’ starting quarterback gig, he had to out-practice/play Mayfield in August. Not by a little, but a lot.
While Trask (prior to Friday) may have been outperforming Mayfield in training camp practices a little, Joe is sure it hasn’t been nearly enough.
Todd Bowles needs wins badly or his career as an NFL head coach will go up in smoke. If for whatever reason the Bucs have a bad season, Joe doesn’t see Bowles, who turns 60 in November, getting a third shot as an NFL head coach.
Joe is of the belief that with his career on the line, Bowles will not turn to a guy with a grand total of nine career passes unless he performs so well he cannot be pulled off the field. Like Russell Wilson as a rookie.
Trask isn’t there.
So Bowles made it a point to tell all that Mayfield and Trask played behind the same offensive line and threw to the same receivers on Friday night. Their results were quite different.
Mayfield completed 8 of 9 passes for one touchdown and no sacks or picks. Trask completed 6 of 10 with no touchdowns, one interception and three sacks.
So what’s going on here?
Well, Sharp, the handicapper turned stathead, had the pressure rates of every quarterback this weekend. Trask was pressured on 39 percent of his dropbacks. Mayfield, 22 percent. Fairly significant difference.
And Joe thinks it’s safe to say Trask was facing a Steelers defensive front with more future Walmart assistant managers and Orkin exterminators than Mayfield did.
So what gives? Could it be, perhaps, Mayfield is more skilled and/or adept at line calls given his experience than Trask? Joe doesn’t know the answer but it seems reasonable.
Being able to recognize defenses and put offensive linemen into better positions to get the job done often comes with experience. And let’s face it, Mayfield has taken tons more snaps in his NFL career than Trask.
How else does one explain the major difference in pressure rates between the two quarterbacks behind the same line and throwing to the same receivers? Tired offensive linemen?
Surely Bucs players were not laying down with Trask behind center to help Mayfield lock up his bid to be the Bucs’ starting quarterback?
context for QB preseason performance
preseason week 1 pressure rate:
64% – Russell Wilson
63% – Jake Browning
59% – Jarrett Stidham
53% – Nathan Rourke
52% – Tommy DeVito
50% – Mason Rudolph
50% – Chris Streveler
50% – Gardner Minshew
50% – Brett Rypien
50% – Trey Lance
50% -…— Warren Sharp (@SharpFootball) August 14, 2023
August 14th, 2023 at 4:58 am
Joe ,,, ‘Being able to recognize defenses and put offensive lineman into better positions to get the job done often comes with experience. How else does one explain the major difference in pressure rates between the two quarterbacks behind the same line and throwing to the same receivers?’
No doubt experience helps Joe, in any profession. But to point to THAT as the ONLY reason for the difference between the 2 QBs performances Friday night might be a bit unfair.
For starters, what about the CENTER’S ROLE in all this. I thought that on most teams the center made the OLine calls & adjustments for each play (as well as normally block the nose tackle … usually the opponent’s biggest & strongest DLineman?). I felt last year that Hainsey was a major step-down from Jensen at center. Is that what we saw more of Friday night?
For another, Kyle Trask’s numbers were actually quite good. Yes he was 6-for-10 for 99 yards. But he had one 38-yard pass called back because of a penalty, and his receivers dropped at least 2 others. And he was throwing the ball a LOT further down the field on average than Baker was.
Play-calling was also quite different. Mayfield got 21 plays (not counting 4 downs with offensive penalties accepted) … 12 runs & 9 passes (8 short; only 1 deep). No sacks. Trask on the other hand got 19 plays (plus 3 plays with offensive penalties accepted) … 7 runs & 12 pass attempts (6 short; 3 deep plus was sacked on 3 pass attempts). The play-calling for the 2 QBs was quite a bit different IOW.
The biggest difference though IMO was that the OLine folded like a cheap suit by the time Trask got in there. Like you stated, he was pressured on 39% of the snaps that he took. That’s abysmal. Additionally, the 7 runs with Trask in there generated a grand total of MINUS 3 yards (not counting the yardage lost due to the sacks). Truly abysmal & indicative that our OLine wasn’t run-blocking very effectively, nor were they pass-blocking worth a hoot.
August 14th, 2023 at 5:17 am
I agree with DR, the o-line is a huge problem. Just using your eyes with no access to stats you can tell Trask was pressured more. Will be very interested in how he looks against the Jets.
August 14th, 2023 at 5:37 am
Defense Rules is correct again. An offensive line near the end of the first half is not the “same” offensive line that started the game. Also, Trask threw much deeper passes, hence his much higher yards-per-pass-attempt than Mayfield.
August 14th, 2023 at 6:00 am
Agree. And Wolford looked the best of the 3.
August 14th, 2023 at 6:03 am
Can’t wait for the cuts. Will be able to pick up a better o line than what we have now.
August 14th, 2023 at 6:14 am
I’m a Trask supporter, but the tape don’t lie. Both Baker, and Wolford out played Trask Friday night. Wolford was running with the 3rd string O line, and did better then Trask. Our boy looked like the moment was to big for him. He doesn’t exude confidence, maybe that’s why the O line under performed when he was out there. If Trask gets his opportunity during the season do to a Baker injury, or melt down he better make the most of it. The next 4 weeks leading up to the season Trask needs to prove he’s good enough to be the back up. Baker is your starter.
August 14th, 2023 at 6:40 am
Trask does need more experience, it is true. Only one way to get it that I’m aware of.
August 14th, 2023 at 6:44 am
While reading the above JBF blurb, an eponymous headline for another blurb appeared to the right of my screen. It stated that Todd Bowles had hinted the starters, yet again, would rest for the Jets preseason game.
Granted, Godwin and Evans have earned that level of respect. But they will be catching passes from a new QB this year, and neither a QB with the experience of a Tom Brady.
Should not Evans/Godwin play a few series with each potential starter in an attempt to get on the same page? Seems “Coach” Bowles fails to understand the same page concept, especially when it appears his two star receivers and QB’s aren’t reading from the same book.
Mike Tomlin opened with his starters last week. Why? One must assume he wants to get them more work with their second year QB.
Bowles?
Who knows what runs through his mind. With an implied absence of logic and a confirmed lack of displayable emotion, he’s far from my kind of coach.
But what do I know?
August 14th, 2023 at 6:44 am
It’s looking like Mr Licht has 2 high profile 2nd round busts on his hands now. Geodeke was shockingly awful AGAIN. Trask just can’t seem to get it done.
I expect the same performance from both of these guys moving forward.
August 14th, 2023 at 6:55 am
One would also surmise that the “Experienced” QB Mayfield would have noticed the WR not lined up legally on multiple plays and either signaled him to back up off the line or called TO to avoid the penalty , interesting how no one even mentions that shortsightedness from Mayfield, the “Experienced ” QB.
August 14th, 2023 at 7:00 am
Luke Goedeke Is who we thought he is…a bust. I saw the hiccup with the tightend causing him to miss his block but that doesn’t matter, he still gets beast mode. Cam Jordan is licking his chops n Bowles has not prepared for him. I’m not a fan of Cam Jordan but he is a trash talker n seems to back it up. Yesterday , after a play, CJordan did a backward flip from the ground. I’d put Matt Feiler at RT and Nick Leverett at LG.
August 14th, 2023 at 7:22 am
We don’t know if the center is setting the oline but we know they are at least inexperienced at it especially Hainsey. We know this bc Brady did that for them and Ryan Jensen has previously stated how he wasn’t used to it. If the norm is for the center to direct the oline then I imagine we have gone back to that.
If you watch Herbigs two sacks he has his hands on Trask 2 seconds after the ball is snapped on both of those plays. Even Brady with his quick release would have still been sacked on those bc his career time to throw was just over 2 seconds.
The interception was still bad and I haven’t seen a highlight of the third sack.
August 14th, 2023 at 7:24 am
Didn’t Jensen make the line calls when he played?
August 14th, 2023 at 7:28 am
LT Wirfs
LG Leveritt
C Hainsey. (sadly Jensen may never recover)
RT Stinnie
RT Feiler
Let Mauch and Goedecke provide depth, fill in and continue to learn the Pro game. They are not yet ready for Prime Time
August 14th, 2023 at 7:31 am
The big setup… Looked to me like Mayfield was given the actual offense scheme when he was in the game. Trask was not.
August 14th, 2023 at 7:48 am
Trask was setup to fail? Now that is absurd. Give me a break. Some the Trask cult members cannot admit he simply looked bad. Anything else is spin.
Here’s the thing same oline, different QB markedly different results. And no, you nor I nor anyone outside of one buc know what the actual play calls were, only where Mayfield and Trask ended up going with it or any adjustments the QBs made, or failed to make. Canales and his staff do.
What I did see was one QB who seems to have the mobility to help account for some of the OLine issues, and one who cannot.
August 14th, 2023 at 7:51 am
Oh, and Mason Rudolph had a higher pressure rate than Trask ans also looked better, too.
It’s not a plot. Trask simply isn’t ready, and at this point it seems like he may never be.
August 14th, 2023 at 8:06 am
Brave enough to watch it again and mainly focused on the o line I saw that Luke actually played decent with baker in the game
August 14th, 2023 at 8:20 am
Kieft drop over the middle for 20 killed a drive and the ball was right on target. Trask has a ceiling that is far above Mayfield. Again-Why does no one mention the “Experienced Baker” not avoiding the penalties for incorrect alignment when he should be able to spot and correct those easily before the snap.
August 14th, 2023 at 8:31 am
Of note, Wolford only had 16% pressure rate (of course that was scrub time) To be fair to Trask, one of the three sacks certainly couldn’t be his fault–he wasn’t even done with his dropback before the right side of the line collapsed
August 14th, 2023 at 8:42 am
Sheesh. A lucky desperation pass that was overthrown that a rookie made an almost impossible catch and tiptoe td !! That was more a great play by the rookie! I believe the rookie made Baker look good rather than Baker making a great throw. Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good!
August 14th, 2023 at 8:49 am
Joe says-Being able to recognize defenses and put offensive linemen into better positions to get the job done often comes with experience.
There were two or three procedural penalties, two where receivers were not lined up correctly, while Baker was in the game. And why didn’t you include the completion yardage.
I can’t believe you are blaming the bad line play on Trask. Was last years bad line play Brady’s fault?
August 14th, 2023 at 9:01 am
Everyone mentions Mayfield’s 8 for 9 but look at the Yardage, 66 total yards! that’s only about seven yards total per throw , they were only calling safe little dump off passes for Mayfield , Trask on the other hand was 6 of 10 for 99 yards, that’s 9 yards per throw even with the incompletions, but of those incompletions, 3 were drops and one was an interception , situationally Trask was called on to make longer , more risky throws , the Bucs were trailing 14 to 7 when they pulled Mayfield in the closing minutes of the first half ( did they not want Mayfield to have to perform under the pressure of trailing with time running out?),penalties also negated two major gains , by yardage per throw Trask still performed the best , the drops and penalties were out of his control.
August 14th, 2023 at 9:07 am
Steelers outside linebacker Herbig did not get on the field until after Mayfield’s stint. Herbig dominated Goedeke.
August 14th, 2023 at 9:24 am
This will be answered as they will flip with the second game with Trask going first and will have a “fresher” OL while Mayfield comes in midway.
August 14th, 2023 at 9:27 am
This is true All da way. The fans will have more insight after the second preseason game.
August 14th, 2023 at 9:44 am
Another former Gator, Will Grier, may wind up having a better NFL career than Trask. Mayfield will be the starter and it is not yet Trask’s time… if ever.
August 14th, 2023 at 9:46 am
I would love to see Trask look sharp behind a solid OL. As long as Todd is trotting The Turnstile out there, sadly the OL will be what we saw Friday. And Trask doesn’t have the experience to know what to do, what checks to make, based on Turnstile’s ineptitude.
Your starter is Baker.
Go Bucs.
August 14th, 2023 at 9:52 am
Whether they are going to be Walmart Assistant Managers or Orkin Exterminators everyone of them could be a Bouncer at any Strip Club in the country and no one would give them a lick of trouble.
As of Friday night they were all large, strong men and were fighting for their survival. They either make plays or they are out. Joe refers to them as Camp Meat I believe and they were shuffling in and out for coach to get a good look at them and they stayed pretty fresh. Why they end up at Walmart has very little with what they have from the neck down.
Trask faced 56% more pressure not because he was slow but because his line was fatigued. Anyone that says the line was “the same’ between Drives 1-5 and 6-10 should not be coaching for sure. Hopefully Bowles realized that. Funny that this writer should mention Walmart because that is the kind of QB I have always thought Mayfield was. Things work great for a couple years and then you go buy somewhere else because you realized it was a waste of money. If you are lucky you find a sucker to take it off your hands. Tampa got him on a Rollback Special. Produce or it’s off to the Thrift Store.
August 14th, 2023 at 9:58 am
Play calls where diff with mayfield getting bootlegs vs Trask b gap play fake or a designed pocket pass
August 14th, 2023 at 10:32 am
A Big Blocking TE (who doesn’t get in Goedecke’s way and actually keep him from pursuing the rushers) would help solidify the right side of the offensive line.
Is that Ko Kieft (who needs to be taking 500 reps at the Jugs machine after practice every day to improve his hands)? Is that Payne Durham (who also needs 500 reps each day with the Jugs machine to improve his hands)? Is that this year’s late TE FA pick-up who hopefully can show more than Kyle Rudolph did last year?
Who’s the TE coach? If for some reason, Big Red Ryan Jensen can actually play center this year, maybe put Hainsey at Blocking TE to help out Goedecke and Mauch on the right side in obvious running situations.
August 14th, 2023 at 10:35 am
For those of you looking for some little glimmer of hope for the Bucs consider this. The other team I follow is my hometown 49ers. Many have them the best in the NFC AND THEY LOOKED WORSE THAN THE BUCS!
August 14th, 2023 at 11:26 am
The circles the Trask Brigade are continuing to try and justify their chosen one’s poor play. He’s a Buc, not a Gator, now. And he should be Qb3 if this were a “fair” competition.
The Oline Fatigue argument is FLAWED. They got “fatigued” on the first drive Trask had -when they weren’t on the drive before with Mayfield ? NFL lineman can play a HALF without getting fatigued. If anyone should be fatigued its the Bucs defense, who were on the field much more because Trask couldn’t sustain a long drive.
Of the three QBs only Trask had problems with sacks & lacking mobilty. And immediately upon entering the game. Wolford’s first series was night and day from Trask’s last.
What’s not being discussed is time to throw–
Mayfields TTT was the fifth FASTEST in week 1 of preseason with 2.1 seconds. What was Trask’s?
Rewatch the game, Trask had ample time to throw–on all but a play or two –and failed to move the pocket, did not seem to make adjustments at the line after the initial drive, and moved into pressure. Calling protections is a QB’s job.
Wolford and Mayfield are simply NFL experienced QBs with better pocket awareness and mobility. Trask did not look NFL ready unless he was given 4 seconds in a clean pocket–and even then he stared down his first read and was easy pickings for safeties watching his eyes.
@bucsfaninOregon–I also follow 9ers – and same! They looked not…good. Made me feel better about the BUCs…except for the run game, which looked far superior. to the Bucs.
August 14th, 2023 at 11:27 am
Meanwhile the Stainks looked great v th Chiefs.
August 14th, 2023 at 11:36 am
It’s potentially shaping up where Licht has not drafted a star table player in the top 3 rounds in the last 3 years. If these players and his rookies don’t show much this season, we need a new GM along with a new coach.
August 14th, 2023 at 11:46 am
JA Says:
be catching passes from a new QB this year,
Might not matter because until TB proves it can run the ball defenses are going to be cover2. Shannon Sharpe claims you can’t pass your way out of cover 2. It seems like he would have knowledge of that. Without Brady I am pretty sure Evans won’t hit his Grand if he’s constantly double covered.
If the line is no better than last season it’s going to be short routes like Godwin was running. If the passes are outside the numbers it will be DB Heaven. Stuff the WR screens or jump the routes for Pick 6. Anything quick in the middle is going to be batted balls or high throws and sitting duck receivers. I’d feel better if Chubbs was going to be catching screen passes as in the Hey Day he averaged 8 yards a reception, and there might be a ton of them. Although if Chubbs was in the backfield we might have a chance at running the ball. At least enough to sell play action.
God I hope they can run the ball and protect for a half second longer than last year if not it might not make a difference who is throwing the ball.
August 14th, 2023 at 11:58 am
1 preseason game and everyone automatically thinks Trask is no good.
Not me. I need to see more. Prolly a lot more than one game with no starters which btw is ridiculous.
August 14th, 2023 at 12:43 pm
With no offense meant to any/all views expressed here, I offer 5 thoughts:
1. Perhaps I missed it in review of posts made above, but our offense with
Mayfield and then Trask (coming in late in 2nd quarter), did not operate in a
vacuum. So, the Steelers DC (who’s reputed to be a good one), certainly
made some defensive adjustments when he saw our offensive play calling
by our new OC. Therefore, is it possible that the defensive rush
improvement from Mayfield to Trask has some other explanation variable
than just a Mayfield v Trask comparison?
2. It appears to me that TB keeps moving the goal posts on his criteria for what
constitutes the QB winner of the supposed competition.
Conclusion: At least in TB’s mind the winner was decided prior to preseason.
3. The Bucs will continue their abysmal record of developing QB’s.
4. Just my gut speaking here… But barring some super human performance by
Trask either now or during the regular season (should Mayfield get hurt), I
predict that Trask will never get the chance to finally show what his true
ceiling is.
5. Some other team will see Trask’s potential, pick him up when he leaves the
Bucs, and make a run for a SB title.
August 14th, 2023 at 1:17 pm
The best line of your write up, Joe:
“Trask isn’t there.”
One sentence statement. Boom.
August 14th, 2023 at 1:21 pm
Not only do I want the best QB to win… but, I want the best QB to excel to the max and get us back to the playoffs, or in the mix in the division (too unrealistic to ask for a SB run).
And if this means watching Baker Mayfield become the QB… then so be it.
In fact, I hope Baker does so well, that he starts making commercials again… just at RayJay… Baker’s home, RayJay style!
August 14th, 2023 at 1:29 pm
I don’t think Trask ever had a chance to win, but if he did, he lost it. I just want the best man under center game 1 and I’d cheer on Wolford if it was him! I’m a Bucs fan first, that’s why I wanted Brady to succeed even though I loathe the dude! I want Bucs to win, while I’m not confident in Bowels, I’m wishing for his success and for him to pick the right guy at QB.
August 14th, 2023 at 1:42 pm
Joe, with a shortened pre season, this game against the Jets is the traditional one in which most starters play at least to half time. So is it true Bowles is gonna sit them with a new QB and a new, young Offensive Coordinator calling the plays!? This team needs reps together, and now only one joint practice against a different team cannot be enough of a litmus test to see where the team is at, and be ready for week one, can it!?
August 14th, 2023 at 1:50 pm
TampaBayBucsFanSince1976 Says:
August 14th, 2023 at 6:55 am
One would also surmise that the “Experienced” QB Mayfield would have noticed the WR not lined up legally on multiple plays and either signaled him to back up off the line or called TO to avoid the penalty , interesting how no one even mentions that shortsightedness from Mayfield, the “Experienced ” QB.
That is way more on Canales than Baker. That is the coach’s job to make sure they are lining up right first and then the quarterback or other receiver 2nd.
That same error was made when Trask was in there but not called by the refs.
August 14th, 2023 at 2:38 pm
I thought it was pretty obvious that the Oline guys looked “fatigued” after a few series.
It was the players first “live” action this year – and was very hot/humid out there at the start of the game.
The players who got extended playing time (Oline) were “feeling it” about halfway through the 2nd Quarter.
This is exactly why I don’t agree with the strategy of sitting all our starters in preseason.
A player’s body HAS to be exposed to playing real football (including taking hits and feeling real fatigue) before that body is ready to jump into an 18 week marathon of taking hits and pushing through fatigue week after week after week.
Seems to me that the attempt to “protect” so many of your starters from injury by not exposing them to hits or any extended time playing ‘real’ football is going to backfire in the form of more in-season injuries and general un-preparedness to deal with the physical rigors of an NFL season.
Its similar to the tackling thing. When the league and the team so severely limit the opportunities for players to practice live tackling leading up to the season – you can’t be surprised nor upset when many of your players generally suck at making tackles on gameday…..
August 14th, 2023 at 5:05 pm
Hardly a controlled experiment, different plays, varying performances by 21 other guys on the field within any play.
Joe you don’t have much time for stats guys and this is a good example. Your eyes can tell you all you needed in that game, Mayfield played better.
August 14th, 2023 at 5:32 pm
Give it a Rest, Trask Bridge Says
Mayfields TTT was the fifth FASTEST in week
Yes and that is why he was Captain Checkdown in 2022
Something else that he can add to the list of since 2018.
Most Interceptions.
Most Batted Balls.
Most Checkdowns.
He sure must be proud of those.
At least by checking down he wins QB completions but it doesn’t do much to logging wins. That 5 yard slant with 3rd and 20 sure moved the chains.Moved the to Steelers end going the other way on the next play.
You got some great points but at times I think you are as FOS as I am.
August 14th, 2023 at 10:32 pm
Pass Defense
2002 TD 10 INT 31 PD 102 FF 8 FR 3 SK 43 (Super Bowl)
2020 TD 29 INT 15 PD 70 FF 15 FR 8 SK 48 (Super Bowl)
2022 TD 29 INT 10 PD 59 FF 12 FR 8 SK 45