Defensive Back Questions
February 27th, 2023
Cheap enough to keep?
Maybe this Joe thinks this way because his old man was a naval officer in the Pacific in World War II, but this should apply to the Bucs and Jamel Dean.
The Bucs are crunched under the cap. And Dean is a pending free agent.
To the capologists at One Buc Palace: Adapt, adjust, overcome.
This Joe is firm in his belief the Bucs will rue the day they let one of the better corners in the business walk at the age of 26. As much as Joe loves Lavonte David, 33, Joe would find a way to keep Dean over David.
This Joe doesn’t give a damn if other teams don’t have two star corners. Until or unless the Bucs wake up Joe Tryon-Shoyinka and/or somehow Bucs sack king Shaq Barrett has a miracle and overcomes his blown Achilles, this pass defense is going to look like Mike Smith is back in town.
No pass rush + a weakened corner position = a nightmare. An absolute nightmare. And paying Dean will be significantly cheaper than paying for a top-shelf pass rusher — if you can find one.
That’s not the only question mark in the secondary.
Ballhawk Mike Edwards is also a free agent. He is one of the few guys there who has a knack for getting turnovers. Edwards, who had the lone defensive touchdown for the Bucs last season, otherwise didn’t have a good season.
Edwards is not a priority unless someone has a fetish for turnovers. Then he becomes a key cog.
Can the Bucs get him back on the cheap or should the Bucs go dumpster diving for another safety?
February 27th, 2023 at 11:06 am
I remember reading that the Jets might cut loose Whitehead for cap reasons. I’m thinking the two of them were pretty much a coin flip as to which one to keep
February 27th, 2023 at 11:22 am
Drafting all those DBs in one draft was just genius wasn’t it?
February 27th, 2023 at 11:26 am
Edwards is more valuable to Tampa than he would be on the open market, not to mention the younger of the 3 safeties from the 2022 roster that are up to hit the market. No way we just let Edwards, Neal, & Ryan go w/o trying to bring at least 1 back to pair with Winfield. Can’t lie tho, Nolan Turner & Don Gardner as reserves may just end up being who we roll with if Neal & Ryan hit the streets and don’t return.
February 27th, 2023 at 11:31 am
Edwards can definitely walk. He plays soft and takes bad angles many times a game. His ballhawk monicker is not really deserved. He started and got the most plays in his career last season and only had 2 interceptions, that’s not what I would consider a ballhawk, Linebackers should have 2 picks a year not Safeties.
February 27th, 2023 at 11:44 am
If they can structure Dean’s contract so he will only count @ $4M-$5M against the cap in 2023 (probably by adding two void years) I could see Dean returning to Tampa.
3 years – $48-$50M – $30M guaranteed – add two void years with @ $5M in each.
It’s possible – however there could be a team who will offer him more money and it will be difficult for the Bucs to match a much higher offer…
Plus – we don’t know how Dean feels about playing for Bowles or playing for a team in rebuild mode.
February 27th, 2023 at 12:13 pm
Marine Buc … ‘we don’t know how Dean feels about playing for Bowles’.
Fact is that Bowles molded Dean into the outside corner that he is. Remember all those stories about Bowles coming in early each day to work with Dean & Edwards? Dean, like any starter, was probably pissed about having to sit out this past playoff game, but I have no doubt that he was told exactly why the Bucs were going with SMB. Hey, if you want to be the one making the decisions, move up higher in the pyramid.
With so many other NEEDS right now, and especially on defense, I just can’t see how we can keep Dean. His Market Value is $20 mil, and someone will pay that, and maybe more. It’s imperative that the Bucs start ‘smoothing out’ their salary CAP hits & the next 2 years could be just as ugly (or worse) as 2023. The $57 mil we’re in the RED for this year won’t go away. We simply can’t cut enough players currently on the roster or renegotiate their salaries downward to come up with $57 mil. And actually we need to free up quite a bit more to sign anyone other than Walmart greeters.
February 27th, 2023 at 12:20 pm
It’s just a crying shame that a few good players make 80-90% of the salary cap and leave nothing for anybody else.
February 27th, 2023 at 12:28 pm
The bucs defensive backs have been bad for many years here in Tampa and its seems that communication has always been the excuse and the biggest glaring picture of that was the Rams playoff game
February 27th, 2023 at 12:28 pm
Dooley … I agree with you about Edwards; we need to keep him if at all possible. He knows the defense very well, and he’s kinda like a Swiss Army knife back there in that he can play several positions (as can Logan Ryan). Not our fastest DB by any means, but he plays smart. Well, most of the time.
I suspect that for the $20 mil we’d have to pay Dean, Bucs could probably re-sign Edwards, SMB, Nelson & very possibly 1 or 2 others from last year’s team (like Ryan, Neal or Delaney). Draft a CB high (1st or 2nd Rnd) & we could survive with that Secondary.
February 27th, 2023 at 12:30 pm
When you consider that many of these “cut candidates” are owed millions in cap space even if you cut them it’s just crazy to even have put ourselves in this position.
February 27th, 2023 at 12:34 pm
I hear ya, DR. We’re probably gonna have to let Sean walk so we can keep a few others.
February 27th, 2023 at 12:35 pm
@ DR
“With so many other NEEDS right now, and especially on defense, I just can’t see how we can keep Dean.”
I agree.
I think it is a long shot to keep Dean in Tampa.
I would prefer to try and keep SMB, Edwards, Nelson, Gholston, Nacho – etc. Then use pick #19 on a new CB…
February 27th, 2023 at 12:44 pm
@ BucfanFred
“it’s just crazy to even have put ourselves in this position.”
Hey Fred – at least we have a SUPER BOWL trophy to show for it.
Can you imagine being a Saints fan?
HAHAHAHAHA!!!
February 27th, 2023 at 12:46 pm
Broderick Jones LT Georgia should be Bucs target in the draft. Emmanuel Forbes at CB Mississippi State only if Jones goes way earlier than expected. Jones will start for many years and is a beast. Forbes is the all time career pick six leader in FBS history , a solid cover corner , and a willing run stuffer.
Any other player than these two will be a reach.
February 27th, 2023 at 12:57 pm
Can’t keep everyone next year Winfield and White the year after Wirfs. Thankfully the drafts the last two years sucked so we don’t have to worry about big money players after Wirfs.
February 27th, 2023 at 1:03 pm
I would move on from Mike Edwards, even if his asking price is dirt cheap. He’s consistently out of position and there were numerous times where he seems confused on what to do.
February 27th, 2023 at 1:10 pm
I’d think Mike Edwards they can get back pretty cheap, and no reason not to bring him back. As a depth player, he’s fine, and the Bucs are going to have a ton of holes in the secondary.
As for Dean, I think the issue is price. Ideally you’d bring him back, he’s mostly a solid starter, but I’m not sure how they squeeze him in. I guess it will just depend on the market and how other teams view him, if there’s anyone else that thinks he’s a number 1 corner, even a low end 1, then he’s gonna get paid a lot more than what the Bucs can pay. But I do agree, I think the Bucs will look back at this with regret as I think he’s going to be around for a while and will be solid for a long time.
February 27th, 2023 at 1:13 pm
The good news: There’s plenty of good corners in this draft.
The bad news: The Bucs have many holes to fill besides corner.
February 27th, 2023 at 1:25 pm
Dean is as good as gone. Agree with defense that he’ll get at least JC Jackson type money. Guys with his length, speed and agility are hard to find..On Edwards, depends on the number and where he wants to be. Go find a deal and give us the chance to match. If it’s exorbitant, bye. Unless he gets a great deal from a contender, why would you uproot for equal dollars.
February 27th, 2023 at 1:29 pm
@DR
The only saving grace is that Edwards will be hitting the FA market with guys like Jessie Bates, Poyer, Gardner-Johnson, Vonn Bell and a few other more well known commodities out there that from a negotiating perspective might take some of the guaranteed money off the table for Edwards. Also, the safety market doesn’t look as appealing as the CB FA market looks, which also plays into how to hold onto a Dean or SMB. Our defense may be a rubics cube of humanity by time all the wheeling, dealing, and signing FAs go.
I’m still undecided on what to do with our 19th overall selection at the moment, by default I’d say work trade deal out w/ a Houston or NYG or a Seattle who are all sitting on a reserve of picks with Seattle having about 10 of their picks all in the top-100 selections of the draft. Can’t say it’ll work, or what trade package would work, but I wouldnt be surprised to hear we tried either.
February 27th, 2023 at 1:43 pm
Dooley, this draft will certainly test Lichts abilities. The udfa market will need to be scoured. I’m not a fan of trading out, unless the return is ample. If he does deal the 19th, he’d better be sure he can get value.
February 27th, 2023 at 1:50 pm
If you could get rid of Davis for a late round pick (because of his cap hit), and obviously get rid of his contract $20m/2 yrs, would you do that if it mean keeping Dean on a longer deal at like $15m/4 yrs.
$15m for a corner is not going to be expensive after the cap explodes next year, so you’d have a guy locked up for a while at a good rate. Meanwhile Davis is going to be extremely expensive to keep if you can even resign him. In the meantime, you have to ask, is the team even going to be competitive in the next 2 years?
February 27th, 2023 at 2:01 pm
Redeemer, It’ll all be set up with how Licht and the front office approach free agency, especially with the rest of the league gearing up for the combine it’ll be the first chance to float ideas/sceanrios in search of potential partners. My opinion is, we don’t need 5-6 day 3 players at all, if we can turn a combo of day 3 picks that into 2-3 day 2 players while keeping our first round selection at 19 or anything between 20-32 I’d be all for it.
February 27th, 2023 at 2:07 pm
Also, @Redeemer
There’s quite a bit of talent coming out of the FBS ranks. There’s a QB from Fordham that’s flying below a lot of radars, but generated a bit of a buzz for himself outside of the Bronx. There’s a 6’4 sprinter that doubles as a pretty imposing WR in the ivy league, and a 240lbs RB I was introduced to this past weekend outta of Alabama(not the ‘Tide) that looks like a fire hydrant with legs and pads on. I always liked the post-draft FA period, it’s where you find some of the hungrier dogs who get counted against or out completely largely because of a lower/lesser collegiate pedigree.
February 27th, 2023 at 2:18 pm
Rod, I was in favor of locking up dean over Davis. IMO he has the higher upside. Totally agree on trading Davis, if it makes sense. I will disagree on what Dean will command on the market. IMO 15 per will be the starting point. Like defense said, he’s likely to command 20+.
February 27th, 2023 at 2:20 pm
Structuring anyone’s contract with dead cap money in the post Brady era, completely defeats the purpose of rehabilitating the salary cap health of the team.
There’s no championship window here. Face it everyone, the music stopped, the party is over and the bill is now due! No more of this well if I Venmo the DJ he’ll play a couple more songs for me to try to seal the deal with some 4 out of 10 buzzer beater.
February 27th, 2023 at 2:53 pm
Redeemer … ‘On Edwards, depends on the number and where he wants to be. Go find a deal and give us the chance to match. If it’s exorbitant, bye.’
Agree, and I think that same logic holds with virtually all of our FAs. Although … the time to work a deal with your own FAs is BEFORE the FA dinner bell rings, while you’re (supposedly) the only one who can actually talk to them. Kinda like some of those ‘special deals’ you always see them offering on the TV cop shows … ‘Hey, the first one to talk gets the good deal with the reduced sentence’.
I’d have an initial talk with Dean’s agent, but with very low expectations. Very shortly thereafter if I were JL I’d be making team-friendly offers to (1) LVD; (2) SMB; (3) Nelson; (4) Gabbert; (5) Hicks; (6) Gholston; (7) Edwards; (8) RNR; (9) Stinnie; (10) Neal; (11) Nassib; (12) Wells. There are 3 others who are RFAs who I’d put down an offer on: (1) Leverett; (2) Delaney; (3) Gill.
Of those 15, all but 4 are defense. Some will surely choose to move on, but I’d bet that most would accept a team-friendly offer of say a couple years each rather than settle for 1-year ‘prove-it’ deals from otehr teams (almost surely to be the way it goes in most of those cases). It’d give us some stability over the next 2 years while we rebuild certain position groups with younger players (draft picks).
February 27th, 2023 at 2:58 pm
“Would keep Dean over LVD”…..actually, I think we should let both go…..LVD too old for a long term contract…..Dean….too expensive….replace them both in the draft….
Top FA priorities, Nelson, RNR…..and maybe a S…..Edwards or Ryan.
Our top 3 draft picks should be……LB, CB, DT/Edge (need to replace Hicks/Gholston
This is shaping up to be a much younger team.
February 27th, 2023 at 3:05 pm
We have a marginal secondary, then you put in one of the worst pass rushing lines in football??
Jason will draft us out of it…..
February 27th, 2023 at 3:11 pm
How is it that Ronde Barber played in every game after his rookie year and did not miss one game for 15 seasons and not one of these DBs completed one season without missing games in the past three years?
February 27th, 2023 at 3:13 pm
I’d almost guarantee that once you pay Dean the big contract, his injuries start to stack up again and you won’t get anywhere near your money’s worth. The dude has spent his career being inconsistent, injured, and then finally a consistently good player in a contract year. This absolutely screams CAUTION, spend at your own risk. We can’t afford any big money free agents, especially those with guarantees.
Lavonte David means more to the team, the franchise, and the fans and can still play. You can probably get Lavonte and SMB for the price of Dean. Sounds like a better deal to me.
February 27th, 2023 at 4:28 pm
@ DR
I like that list of 15 players and agree that is exactly the proper direction the Bucs should go this off season. Most of those guys can be had for $1.5M-$2M each.
I would consider adding DB Logan Ryan to that list as well if he is healthy.
But if they can bring back most of those inexpensive players the remaining holes can be filled via the draft…
February 27th, 2023 at 4:35 pm
@ TBBF
I understand your point about getting younger but we only have 9 draft picks and 3 of them are #196 or later…
The advantage of re-signing Hicks, LVD and Gholston is two-fold.
First it will help the Bucs to defer most of the dead cap space money we owe them (need all the help we can get with the cap).
Second it brings three starters back on a defense missing 16 players from last years 53 MR…
I agree it is not a perfect solution but we won’t be able to replace everyone in just one draft and free agency isn’t much of an option because of our cap situation.
No easy answers this off season.
February 27th, 2023 at 4:51 pm
Two corners averaging over $15 million a year on a team that is dead last in cap space? No way. Time to take our medicine.
February 27th, 2023 at 4:55 pm
Injury prone.
February 27th, 2023 at 5:03 pm
Bowles is not going to let Dean walk. He’s like a son to him. He earned a contract with his play last year one of the very few bright spots. He’s going to make it as cap friendly as possible.
Swapping out Whitehead for Edwards wouldn’t be a bad thing. Lose a ball hawk who is somewhat a liability and gain an enforcer with the toughness this defense lacked last year.
February 27th, 2023 at 5:08 pm
No worries. They were not so hot last year an the rookies will be almost as good or bettah.
February 27th, 2023 at 5:09 pm
Bowles is a Defense Guru…the people do not matter.
February 27th, 2023 at 5:13 pm
The weird thing about Edwards, is that he was a ball hawk as a part time player.
But then in a more full-time role? Not so much. His play regressed a bit. You could honestly make the same argument about Antoine Winfield Jr. last season as well. Can’t help but wonder if his injuries, especially the concussions, are taking a toll on his young career… Hopefully he comes back to form in 2023.
February 27th, 2023 at 5:16 pm
Marine Buc … I love Logan Ryan’s experience & leadership, but he was fairly injury-prone last year (dressed for 9 games; started 6). Bucs paid him $1.12 mil for last season, waaay below his career value.
But on Christmas Day of 2020 he’d signed a 3-year, $31 mil contract with the Giants that he was still getting paid on (aahh yes, the Christmas gift that kept on giving). Prior to that he’d signed a 3-year, $30 mil contract with the Titans back in 2017 that paid off.
In short, he’s NOT a $1 mil a year DB by any means; we just caught him at the right time (I suspect he wanted to re-unite with Brady for 1 last go at the SB?). Of course, he is 32 now, has made a boatload of money, and may be just looking for a nice place to retire, like I suspect Suh was when he signed here. Oh wait, he left for Philly. Bad example.
February 27th, 2023 at 5:25 pm
I think every year we should always use a high draft pick for a OL/DL and we’d be in great shape
February 27th, 2023 at 5:29 pm
Stanglassman … Bowles may not have any choice on Dean. Not his money. The Glazers & Licht will probably have something to say about a huge contract like Dean will surely get.
Whitehead left because he wanted money and New York paid him handsomely (2 years, $14 mil … much more than the Bucs could’ve). They have a potential out this year, but it’ll cost them $3.0 mil and they’d still have to replace him. If I were the Jets, I’d hold onto him for 1 more year (he played very well for them).
Jets do have 2 other players the Bucs MIGHT be interested in though who are UFAs. One is Kwon Alexander, who I never liked as a MLB but has been more outside since leaving here. He signed with the Jets for $1.3 mil last year.
Another player of theirs I like who’s also a UFA is DT Sheldon Rankins. Spotrac shows him with a Market Value of $7.3 mil. He’s still fairly young (28) and might be a nice complement to Vea inside. Good size (6’2″ & 305 lbs) & was fairly consistent with the Jets over the past 2 years (3 sacks & 7 QB hits in each of the past 2 years). Only missed 3 games with them too.
February 27th, 2023 at 5:43 pm
@ DR
I can’t believe Logan Ryan is already 32. Wow – time flies.
If he would come back on a cheap one year deal he might still be worth it given our current circumstances.
Even if he just plays 10-12 games or is just a situational player it would be worth it…
February 27th, 2023 at 7:07 pm
Redeemer – I still think Davis is the better corner, but I’m just saying if you could get Dean for cheaper and longer, would that be the better play? As for what Dean commands on the market, I guess we’ll find out. The question is if someone views him as a true #1 corner, and I don’t think he’s seen as that. But it only takes one team to put him as a starter on their board and they can blow up the market. Also, with the cap exploding next year, the price of everyone is going to go up, and I wonder how much that will be factored into the deals given out for this year.
February 27th, 2023 at 7:53 pm
It’s all smoke and mirrors. They can and will keep who they want and need. Dean is both, David will be a timely casualty to the Cap as will Smith and Lenny. Very quickly they will hedge this year’s signings off the future year’s Cap increase. These NFL teams have the best accountants out there.
It won’t take much to win the South next year and the Bucs are banking on it.
February 27th, 2023 at 8:51 pm
none of this really matters if your starting qb is tommy trask
February 27th, 2023 at 10:13 pm
We need to resign David, he is still one of the top ILBs in the NFL, you aren’t going to sign him for a ton of money nor are you going to sign him for more than probably two years.
I do agree though a lot of the cap is smoke and mirrors. Playing with OTC – using their default numbers for restructuring our highest paid players, trading White, Fournette, and Davis, along with cutting all the usual suspects, I got us to $56M in free cap space.
Re-signing David really is only going to cost us like $3M because of his void year already being $6.7M. Then we need about $10 or so for our current draft picks. Which leaves the Bucs with about $43M in cap space to sign free agents. In my ideal scenario we are able to trade White, Davis, and Fournette yielding maybe four to five draft picks in total.
February 27th, 2023 at 10:24 pm
If there was some magic way you could pay NFL players by the game then Dean would be a lot more appealing.
He sat out at Ohio State because of an injury before transferring.
He has yet to finish an entire season in 4 years with the Bucs! He’s missed at least 2 games every year! He has talent but invest a ton of $$$ in a guy who has been injury prone?
February 28th, 2023 at 12:35 am
I agree. I think Dean is really good. Unless you have a front 4 getting 10 sacks each, you need good DBs.
Let SMB walk. Along with Smith, Nacho, Lenny, Miller…. I do everything I can to keep Evans and LVD, unless they personally request wanting to go elsewhere.