Big Game For Corners
December 8th, 2019
Another test. (Photo courtesy of Buccaneers.com.)
The Bucs secondary, specifically its cornerbacks, has been playing well, significantly better than earlier in the season.
It is lazy to say the secondary got better because Vernon Hargreaves was benched and launched. But that sure seems like a turning point.
Fact is, prior to November, the secondary with or without Hargreaves was flat out putrid.
Yeah, it could be that the rookies are figuring out the NFL. Yeah, it could be that the second-year corners are figuring out how to play for defensive coordinator Todd Bowles. Yeah, it could be that the secondary saw a first-round pick like Hargreaves tossed overboard and they collectively figured if they don’t bust their tails, they could be out too.
And it could be all of the above.
Currently, Joe isn’t as down on the secondary like Joe was earlier in the season. Many people still are. Take Michael Middlehurst-Schwartz of USA Today who thinks the Bucs should be thinking cornerback in the offseason as a priority.
Buccaneers: Cornerback. The outlook shifts if Tampa Bay reaches its breaking point with Jameis Winston, but upgrades are needed to a back end that ranks 30th in yards allowed despite the arrival of four second- or third-round cornerbacks in the last two years.
This just reads like a guy who looked at stats and has not watched Bucs games lately. Sometimes that’s OK for a national guy. It’s hard to be in tune with every team in the league every week.
Joe believes today’s game is big for the corners. The Colts have weapons in the passing game. And if the Bucs corners can play well today, they will take another step toward demonstrating the past three or four weeks are no fluke.
December 8th, 2019 at 3:46 am
This Secondary is for real IMO, BUT it has zero NO DEPTH. I like Davis & Dean as our corners, and SMB as the nickel. SMB appears to be getting better at playing outside, but the Davis-Dean combo still seems to have the edge.
But for DEPTH we have MJ Stewart & Ryan Smith. Stewart virtually disappeared after the Cardinals game (he got roasted … 7 targets, 7 completions … and hasn’t seen the field since). Ryan Smith got quite a bit of time in the Jaguars game, but mostly because Dean was hurt it appears (he got picked on, but played pretty well … 8 targets, 6 completions).
Still can’t figure out what’s happening at Safety. Whitehead’s the workhorse, but it appears that in the Jaguars game, Edwards & Adams shared equal time at the FS position. I thought BA said that Edwards was gonna be a nickel (and he played that some in the Falcons game). Adams is playing reasonably well since the Seahawks game (3 targets, 3 completions in that game, but 9 targets, 5 completions in the 4 games since then). Darian Stewart is a non-factor, but I also thought earlier in the year the Bucs said that MJ Stewart would become a Safety.
What the Bucs are doing back there seems confusing, but lack of depth is apparent. There’s been a LOT of experimentation obviously trying to figure out who can do what. We’ve got plenty of youngsters back there, so I’d expect us to sign a veteran corner and a veteran safety in the off-season.
December 8th, 2019 at 5:41 am
Hilton isn’t playing and they’re 1-7 when he’s out.
Reality is that the younger Bucs corners are better than Hargreaves. He never played close to his draft status. Definitely put the team on notice.
People were down on Carlton Davis, but at least he contests passes.
We’ve played mediocre teams lately, and we’re gonna play a mediocre team today. And outside of Houston, we’re playing a lot of mediocrity the rest of the way. If this team seriously turned a corner, we should go 3-1.
We need one more playmaker in the secondary and some depth along the defensive line. Then this defense can be elite.
Offense we need one more starter on the o-line and a game changing running back.
December 8th, 2019 at 5:54 am
What if it was Hargreaves who made the Bucs pass defense look so bad these past three years? He is starting to look like the fall guy. Hard to believe one guy could be responsible for the Bucs downfall but couldn’t help to notice how many teams and QBs were picking on him.
December 8th, 2019 at 6:27 am
Yeah, it could be that the second-year corners are figuring out how to play for defensive coordinator Todd Bowles.
Davis is a second-year player……who’s the other?…..MJ Stewart…..apparently, he has figured it out but isn’t good enough to play.
As for depth next year…..there will be many free agent depth players available along with a 3-7th round pick….but our first two picks need to go for a RT & either a DE or DT.
When you are drafting high…..you need to draft to replace players making big money……drafting at those two positions will save us over $10 million….drafting a CB will save us very little.
December 8th, 2019 at 6:49 am
It’s probably because they have a real DC unlike Smitty
December 8th, 2019 at 7:11 am
All secondaries are only as good as their weakest player. Good NFL teams exploite matchups, and a weak corner will be picked on relentlessly. So, yes it’s possible VH3 was really the reason the secondary was bad, but much of the blame rests with coaches that continued to put him on the field expecting different results.
December 8th, 2019 at 8:23 am
VHIII is gone, so I won’t pick on him. More likely, him being gone permitted the young guys to get the experience and development they needed.
Defense Rules, great post. Good information!
I would only point out that bringing in a veteran would probably mean he’d want to start, and if the Bucs believe in these young guys like I suspect they do, I don’t think they will let that happen…unless it is a big name veteran.
The issue there is that the Bucs cannot afford a big name veteran in the secondary. They need to focus on RT, DL and QB for their spending.
December 8th, 2019 at 8:40 am
AlabamaBucsFan … VHIII was the weak link IMO, BUT he didn’t play all that much in 2017 & 2018. We simply didn’t have starting-quality talent. Same at the start of this year … VHIII only saw the field because Dean was hurt, Ryan Smith was on suspension & SMB was slow developing apparently. Once Dean got healed up & SMB’s speed of development picked up, VHIII was gone. Apparently the same with MJ Stewart, although they’re probably keeping him for depth right now because we have no one else (he’s gone next year IMO).
TBBF … GRRREAT observation about drafting guys high to replace players making big money. Had never thought of it in those terms but you’re spot on, because THAT’S what winning teams can do. Unfortunately for the Bucs, we’ve had to draft for NEED, typically to fill positions that were a weakness as opposed for replacing players making big money.
Drafting so many CBs & Safeties over these past 2 years is a good example (a whole position group of weakness). And this year we’ll end up using high draft picks to hopefully draft an OLineman highest (to replace Dotson who makes less than $5 mil), plus a DT (to replace Allen who makes less than $5 mil) or a DE (to replace Gholston who makes less than $5 mil?) plus a RB (to replace Barber who makes $2 mil). Our Top-3 picks are pretty much spoken for IMO. And we’d still probably need to draft another OLineman & a WR with the next 2 picks. NEED will once again dictate our draft in the Top-5 rounds IMO.
December 8th, 2019 at 9:09 am
After seeing Hargreaves (a former first round pick) thrown off the team for constant suck they decided to get their act together. It’s about time. I know they are still young but good lord how many draft picks have we spent on DBs lately? This why our Oline has zero depth.
December 8th, 2019 at 9:37 am
Joe referring to himself in the 3rd person harkens back to “the jimmy” and “George” Constanza from Seinfeld
December 8th, 2019 at 9:47 am
Good Stuff Defense Rules !! I think moving Vern has helped the coaches out and I believe that Bowles isn’t the evaluator he’s given credit for . He in my opinion doesn’t know who and what Edwards is and is having trouble ,wanting him to be something he s not.
Edwards is a more flat footed play making safety with good instincts , not a twitchy side to side , quick on his toes guy !! He can cover a tight end and backs but isn’t up for slot receivers and shouldn’t ever be put there but Bowles runs him that way , way to often !!
So again one player being removed would help Bowles , Edwards appears to be a good young player but they want him to be something he’s not and that seems to be a problem at safety forthe Bucs over the past 5 years . The Bucs want this Ed Reed , Rod Woodson safety and keep trying to force the issue when it’s not there. Stewart has some great skill set he’s just too dam slow. Adams does allot well and may grow into a real good safety if his feet believe what he sees and gets a half step faster ( reaction) .Whiteheads a gamer reads plays well but is a bit weak / half step too slow side to side when working downfield and kinda small for tight ends as is MJ . Evans ( feet ) career may be over.
So believe it or not the D may actually play better Without ( one) Whitehead,Adams or Edwards as it would force Todd I’m a lil lost Bowles to play to the strengths of just two safety’s. So Defense your not confused , the staff is confused and that will instantly make the play and communicating harder and confused. Yes removing Vern appears to be huge for Bowles in a positive by subtraction theory that has been very obvious . It’s been very very obvious Right ??? Or maybe the dB Skill set instantly got 150 percent better in one week ???
December 8th, 2019 at 10:03 am
It’s Great to see the play of the team is so much better but let’s be REAL !!! This is a Coaching Staff that hasn’t gotten Rojo 25 caries in a game and he should have that several times a year !! Let’s be real here , this is 100% Staff Failure and a good GM should Correct It !!
Tremendous Failure and watch when he gets 25 they will act like they are great coaches !! Nope Colossal Failure On Ro Jo !! Stealing Glazer Loot !!
If he’s not ready to block , that still on the coaches !!!
Colossal Failure !!!
Again, If Barber and Dare were removed the offense this would again be better and force the coaches to be prudent !!! They are Not !! Or GM just says , change this week!! Dare and Barber max total touches 10 ……… Got It !!! This sht ain’t hard folks but people with a Ro Jo talent that refuse to advance him make it hard !! Ro Jo gets 75 percent of rb reps in practice Barber doesn’t need them , this sht isn’t hard but Arians as good as he s doing still is making it hard !!
December 8th, 2019 at 10:25 am
TBBF is right with drafting and cap management interplay… IF there is ANYBODY close to JW’s AVERAGE production available in first round we should take him. There won’t be anybody left who can match Good Jameis but since Good Jameis always brings his lesser twin along for 15-25% of the games… there may still be an option who can provide: similar production at half the cost, an upside for improvement that we now know JW lacks, and a 3rd round comp pick for 2021 when someone else picks up JW to give him another shot. If BA is just not ready for the rookie QB roller coaster, then I guess it has to be OL or DE. I can’t help wondering what a QB lacking some aspect of the prototypical NFL QB skill set but who is a proven winner might be able to do if he brought some pop to the run game (not Lamar like, just the threat), allowed us to spend $20M on premier OL (not reaches for 1 year wonders or fading vets) and had all the receiving talent we have. It will be music to all JW’s defenders that this doesn’t sound like BA’s style, so we’re likely back to hoping a defender here and a lineman there will result in a dramatic turnaround from a mostly similar team but what if…
December 8th, 2019 at 10:25 am
Eh, not to sound corny, but there’s something organic building in the Bucs secondary. The injection of a vet from outside could ruin what the Bucs have built on their own. Obviously a better player at any position in the secondary would help, but some serious vetting needs to happen. You can’t put a guy in there who’s all about the money. They have to find a team guy.
December 8th, 2019 at 11:03 am
Hargreaves is a pretty boy who is more interested in chasing tail instead of receivers although he was basically just chasing them down the field after not contesting a pass. SMB has already tied him for career int’s. Hargreaves is just another overrated Gaytor flame out. He’ll be out of the league by the 21 season.
December 8th, 2019 at 11:03 am
The Colts led the NFL last year in fewest sack allowed, and have only allowed 32 this year. This means they may neutralize our Pass Rush, with their huge offensive line.
We will have to depend on our greatly improved secondary, if we are unable to pressure Jacoby Brisette.
Plus, 1/2 of Sarasota will be at this game, to cheer for their hometown boy Marlon Mack, who played for USF.
December 8th, 2019 at 11:20 am
We still need to pick up a big rangy safety in the draft to complete that backfield….Simmons if we can land him in the teens, or Delpit (a little smaller who was considered top 10 but falling a little). D. Brown wont be there….and unless we’re going QB, thats my choice….RT 2nd round.
December 8th, 2019 at 11:31 am
The only DB in this draft worth taking if on the board when we draft will be Grant Delpit. Outside of that build the trenches!!
December 8th, 2019 at 11:38 am
MadMax … If the Bucs draft a Safety in Round 1 I’ll be very disappointed. Plenty of FAs who’ll be on the market (most likely at reasonable prices), and we have MUCH BIGGER NEEDS in the trenches.
Focus on drafting the beasts and everything else will fall into place IMO! A great DLine produces an effective pass rush, making it MUCH easier on the LBs & Secondary. A great OLine that blocks very well makes the QB, RBs, WRs & TEs look MUCH better.
December 8th, 2019 at 11:50 am
The biggest test for this secondary was against Atlanta two weeks ago. They passed with flying colors.
I don’t think it’s a test anymore I see it as an expectation. Our secondary is expected to show up today. In mine opinion they’ve proven they can hang and now need to consistently do it.
Round 2 vs the Falcons should be a lot of fun. You know them guys are highly competitive and won’t be wanting to be shown up again.
GO BUCS!!!
December 8th, 2019 at 11:55 am
And yeah that is a really bad draft assessment for the Bucs. I’ll never understand why these national media’s put absolute crap on to paper that isn’t even close to accurate. Call me crazy but of somebody’s taking the time to read your analysis they are trying to inform themselfs. So your lazy analysis is just making people dumber.
Why can’t these people just pick up a phone and call a local media member who can educate them before writing garbage information and selling it as accurate? What a joke.
December 8th, 2019 at 12:14 pm
Two games played good not enough. Acouple more.
December 8th, 2019 at 12:15 pm
Panthers looking to trade newton. That’s going to weaken the market for jameis this offseason I bet.
December 8th, 2019 at 12:18 pm
@Defense
I was thinking more like replacing Dotson & Suh……about $14mil
I realize that I will get an argument with letting Suh go….but IMO he is the easiest to replace with a first round pick……
And although Suh & Dotson are FAs next year, the $14 mil is what they represented in salaries for 2019…..
The 14 mil would go a long way toward retaining JPP & Shaq (a higher priority for me)
December 8th, 2019 at 12:26 pm
If the secondary looks good today then I can see a turnaround. Go!!
December 8th, 2019 at 12:32 pm
@Defense, agreed….my thinking was if we keep Suh since other than D. Brown, I dont see one at our draft position…plus he looks like he still has a lot left.
If we keep Barrett (#1 priority), JPP and Suh….we wont have much to sign anyone….maybe, i dont know, according to how friendly those guys and their agents are willing to be. D, Brown is the ONLY one I would want to replace Suh, but he’s probably not lasting past the 5th…So just me, but a big dynamic safety at our position in the draft would be logical unless a really great OT fell to us, like Thomas.
Simmons and Delpit are just up there more when you consider drafting for talent over need (or a combination) if we’re picking in the teens.
Or, my plan is better…trade up for D Brown if he makes it to position 10 (he wont though). But yeah, i agree with you on the trench front.