Slow CBs In Fast League
November 12th, 2019
Perceived secondary trait.
Look, the Bucs just won two days ago so Joe isn’t trying to rip apart the Bucs secondary (though one could argue it should be).
For years, a ton of readers on this here website have derided Bucs cornerback Vernon Hargreaves as a slow corner. Joe doesn’t remember anyone complaining about that when he came out of the draft (and Joe was at the combine when he came out and talked to Hargreaves and others and never heard this complaint).
M.J. Stewart is slow enough the Bucs don’t really know what to do with him.
He’s a corner. No, he’s a nickel corner. Maybe he’s a safety. No, he’s a nickel corner. Nah, he’s a corner.
Joe had one loyal reader tell him privately the Bucs should do with Stewart what inept Lovie Smith should have done and what Jeff Fisher did do with Mark Barron: Turn him into an outside linebacker.
These background issues popped up in Joe’s forehead when reading a Twitter by Mike Tanier of Bleacher Report. Joe knows Tanier personally. A stat geek who once was Joe Flacco’s high school math teacher, Tanier may be a better writer (Joe knows of very few people who are both numbers and word guys; usually one sucks at math and is good at writing or vice-versa but rarely excels at both).
Anyway, after watching film of Sunday’s Cardinals-Panthers game, Tanier had an interesting observation of the Bucs corners.
#Buccaneers CBs appear to be two steps slower than the typical NFL wide receiver.
— Mike Tanier (@MikeTanier) November 11, 2019
So if Bucs corners appear to be two steps slower than a typical receiver, imagine them going up against speedy receivers.
Now Jamel Dean is not slow. But he is green as grass. And his play Sunday compared to getting lit up like a Christmas tree in Seattle gives Bucs fans hope Dean could be good.
Joe’s not going to get into the rank irresponsibility of not upgrading the secondary at the trade deadline. But in the future, Joe hopes the shot-callers at One Buc Palace load up on speed in the secondary for 2020.
Coaches can teach fundamentals and technique.
Coaches cannot teach speed. A player either has it or he doesn’t.
November 12th, 2019 at 12:40 am
The high second round pick spent on this fella was a head scratcher.
November 12th, 2019 at 12:45 am
Teacherman been talking about it since the year we drafted Jonathan Banks over Tyranne Mathieu.
Check the archives!
Teacherman the Seer.
November 12th, 2019 at 12:46 am
Yeah the picks of MJ Stewart and Hargraves are the ones that make everyone just really question what in the world Licht is doing. Unlike many I get his overall body of work is pretty good but those two picks just are really hard to sell. I mean the rest you can find something but man oh man with those two there is zero redeeming qualities to hang your hat on. Both are slow for their position, both are small for their position, infact they are so slow it even puts them at a clear disadvantage when it comes to tackling cause they are so far out of position they can’t even do that well.
November 12th, 2019 at 12:48 am
Teacherman has been talking about this since we drafted Jonathan Banks (4.6) over Tyranne Mathieu.
Check the archives.
MJ Stewart should put on 15 pounds and become a LB.
He is a nasty hitter.
Teacherman is a Seer.
(I was the FIRST to call for Mark Barron to be converted to LB)
Check the archives.
November 12th, 2019 at 12:57 am
“But in the future, Joe hopes the shot-callers at One Buc Palace load up on speed in the secondary for 2020.”
So who will be rushing the passer for the Bucs in 2020? JPP, Nassib, and Shaq are all set to be FA.
Bucs are always chasing their tails under Licht. This time next year we will be pining for pass rushers.
Damnit Jameis.
November 12th, 2019 at 1:20 am
MJ Stewart at linebacker? He still will get burned by running backs or tight ends
November 12th, 2019 at 1:23 am
With great speed and length and great coaching Dean has already turned the corner and will be our star cover corner and future Pro Bowl Corner. They need to put him on the Saints’ Super Star WR this coming week. Bunting also has great speed and length but he played for a small college and will take more time before he turns the corner but he will in time. We only need one speedy CB with length Veteran to sign in free agency to replace Hargreaves and trade him for the best draft choice we can get. Also we need to keep every veteran star we already have on this team like David, PFF, Barret, Vea, Allen, Gholston, and Barber, because we are starting too many rookies this year and are one of the youngest rosters in the NFL. We need to add veterans without losing any except slow Stewart and Hargreaves. Those who want us to trade off our veterans like David and get top rookies instead in the draft are foolish. BA has turned the corner now at the same point in the season that Dungy did the same thing and won out the rest of the way. BA will keep this change in culture to a winning culture going and will know what changes we need next year to elevate us to a playoff team even with keeping our gunslinger QB. You know Green Bay Won a Super Bowl with a gunslinger QB and we can too. Jameis was able to score a TD at the end of the first half in one minute and did the same coolly at the end of the last game to win it, despite his interceptions during the game.
November 12th, 2019 at 1:30 am
Omg can we enjoy one week following a victory? Lawd knows there’s a curb stomping coming next week which will make everyone want to regurgitate their turkey. Just need a one day breather on the negativity, all us Buc fans do it to ourselves enough as it is.
November 12th, 2019 at 4:55 am
BA Fan … Agree with your comment about keeping veterans like David, Barrett & Gholston (not sure who PFF is, but if it’s JPP I’m on-board with that one too). And IMO re-signing Ndamukong Suh for maybe 2 years is critical for this defense. Not only is he playing some great football, but he’s set the ‘git er done attitude’ for this DLine this year and maintaining that is critical. Allen is OK, but not a critical re-signing. However, I’d also re-sign Nassib to a 3-5 year deal. Like Gholston, he’s not super-flashy but he’s solid as all git-out largely because of his motor & durability.
Like everyone knows, our Secondary is THE ISSUE. Do away with VHIII & MJ Stewart (please) and Carlton Davis, Sean Murphy-Bunting, Jamel Dean and Ryan Smith are all you’ve got left. I like Davis size & skillset, but he’s missed 2 games in a row (hip) & his penalties continue to be a problem. SMB is coming along, as is Dean, although his injury history still concerns me. And I still can’t figure out why Ryan Smith only has 2 defensive snaps this year. The fact that Gump didn’t add any veteran leadership to that group screwed us this year & SHOULD be cause for his dismissal all by itself.
November 12th, 2019 at 5:06 am
Here’s what we do.
Get rid of them guys.
Draft some of those guys.
FA some of them.
Resign that one.
Keep him.
November 12th, 2019 at 7:04 am
Sunday’s Cardinals-Panthers game?
November 12th, 2019 at 8:30 am
Hagreaves has 4.5 speed but is small. Stewart was almost 4.6 and is short. Davis is 4.5 but is long. Murphy-Bunting is sub 4.4 like Dean. They are the future. Speed is not the entire story, of course. Josh Robinson was 4.3 but could never play corner in the league. Ryan Smith is fast but can’t play corner. They lack anticipation or physicality. Stewart has physicality but has no anticipation. Not one pick in college same for Davis. Whatever scout Licht uses for DBs needs to be fired.
November 12th, 2019 at 8:35 am
ancientasbuc … Was with you until your last sentence. Instead, how’s about … Licht needs to be fired and can take his scouts with him.
November 12th, 2019 at 8:44 am
MJ Stewart ran a 4.54 40 yard dash
Vernon Hargreaves ran a 4.41
Carlton Davis ran a 4.53
Jamel Dean ran a 4.30
In a league where most receivers are running 4.35 and under, what the heck was Licht thinking drafting these slow corners?
November 12th, 2019 at 8:51 am
stop blitzing Whitehead every other farking down and watch the picks start rolling in. That guy is a potential all pro, let him roam the secondary dood is so good in space.
November 12th, 2019 at 8:53 am
Corners are not slow on this team except VH3 and Davis. But they dont have that catch up speed that white showed against Seattle. Once they are burned it’s ok they wont catch anyone
November 12th, 2019 at 9:39 am
What do you mean you didnt hear that hargreaves was slow? Thats all we were saying!! Short slow corners dont work in the NFL! Everyone knew it except Licht. I suggest you go back and look at the comments after Bucs drafted him.
November 12th, 2019 at 9:49 am
Solinor, hargreaves ran a 4.50 at the combine, not 4.41
November 12th, 2019 at 10:45 am
Uh, maybe you should go back and read the comment sections leading up to and after that draft.
Many of us (many many many) said he was too small and too slow to take at #11, and brought up that he was regularly abused in college when facing legit NFL-caliber talents like Amari Cooper.
Guess we were right!
MJ Stewart was a head scratcher from the beginning as well.
Both just awful picks by Licht.
November 12th, 2019 at 11:08 am
Harg cut.
Thank you Jesus!
November 12th, 2019 at 11:09 am
I agree with you 100%. However if we knew how to run a zone defense speed is not quite as essential. You do however need communication and discipline to know who is supposed to be where. We have failed at teaching communication. We have no veterans on the back end of our defense to help on the field. And yes were too slow to play man defense. Thank you Jason light. Why is Jason light still here?
November 12th, 2019 at 11:16 am
I complained about us drafting Hargreaves. I complained about others wanting Trent Richardson or Mo Claiborne when I wanted Kuechly and we got Barron. I complained about Gaines Adams, Cadillac Williams, Mike Clayton, and even Davin Joseph. On all occasions, the player I wanted turned out way better (with the possible exception of Joseph, I wanted Chros Johnson but turn him into a WR).
My point, however, is that you didn’t hear complaints because Hargreaves was a UF player and all the brainwashed area fans think that the only people that can play ball go to school in the state of Florida. Hargreaves was too small, too slow, and not an NFL athlete. The same idiots that wanted him thought Ahmad Black was going to be a star. Newsflash, the state of Florida doesn’t have a monopoly in football talent. Neither does the SEC.
November 12th, 2019 at 11:18 am
other than MJ Stewart & Hargraves who are 4.5 guys which is still not horrible for a NFL corner… the DBs have speed they’re just young… Davis is 4.45 guy, Murphy-Bunting 4.42, Dean 4.3, Smith 4.47… speed isn’t the problem reaction time and having a veteran presence is the bigger problem … they aren’t getting burned by speed…getting burned by inexperience … those long plays against the cards were mental mistakes not physical shortcomings
November 12th, 2019 at 11:22 am
Brandon if that’s true then why do the other schools all recruit from Florida? Ohio State and Clemson have many players from Florida. The Buccaneers just suck!We ignore pass rushers and quality offense of lineman. Our GM does not know how to build a team. And we’ve been going cheap on coaches between Greg piano Raheem Morris and now have a short term head coach.
November 12th, 2019 at 11:23 am
Schiano lol I guess it’s not in series database
November 12th, 2019 at 11:25 am
Ramsey Janoris Jenkins and Joe Haden all from the state of Florida. So is that stud safety from Florida state that went to the chargers and piano Neil for the Falcons.
November 12th, 2019 at 12:09 pm
I was pissed when MJ Stewart was selected mid 2nd rd with LSU’s Donte Jackson (who runs a 4.3) available….
NO IDEA what Licht was thinking on that one. Would LOVE to hear an explanation some day as to why he thought Stewart was the best pick there with at least 4 or 5 higher rated (by others) CBs still on the board. If I ever meet Licht in person and get to talk to him – that is the first thing I would ask him about……
SMB and Dean were drafted because it didn’t take Todd Bowles very long in looking at Bucs tape – to decide he couldn’t be successful with such a lack of speed at CB moving forward.
Yea – Davis runs a 4.5 – but he’s 3″ taller and has much longer arms then Hargreaves and Stewart and is also physical – so Davis has mostly been able to “keep up” and is typically in better position to make more plays on the ball….
Whereas both Hargreaves and Stewart are almost ALWAYS trailing their guy when playing man. They are both good at tackling – but racking up tons of tackles after the catch doesn’t help your team very much does it?
Short and slow is a BAD combination for NFL CBs – especially in today’s NFL – and there’s really only a select few players who can pull it off with great success.
Ronde Barber was kind of the prototype for that short and slow but smart and tough style of successful CB play. So I get what Jason was trying for in drafting VH3 and Stewart….
But man – in retrospect – how much better off would the Bucs be towards having a “completed” team right now – simply by having selected Tunsil and Donte Jackson instead of Hargreaves and Stewart with those two high draft picks….
November 12th, 2019 at 12:29 pm
“I complained about us drafting Hargreaves. I complained about others wanting Trent Richardson or Mo Claiborne when I wanted Kuechly and we got Barron. I complained about Gaines Adams, Cadillac Williams, Mike Clayton, and even Davin Joseph. On all occasions, the player I wanted turned out way better (with the possible exception of Joseph, I wanted Chros Johnson but turn him into a WR).
My point, however, is that you didn’t hear complaints because Hargreaves was a UF player and all the brainwashed area fans think that the only people that can play ball go to school in the state of Florida. Hargreaves was too small, too slow, and not an NFL athlete. The same idiots that wanted him thought Ahmad Black was going to be a star. Newsflash, the state of Florida doesn’t have a monopoly in football talent. Neither does the SEC.”
Agree 100% Brandon! And I have made this point before.
Almost as if the Bucs are worried about trying to appease local hard core college fans of the Noles (reach for a K of all things) and Gators. Been happening for years. Look at the comments when it gets close to the draft and you will see a huge amount of begging for gators in particular on this site. Our fans always overrate the Florida schools and I get skeptical every time we select a player from UF. Reidel Anthony flashbacks i guess…
November 12th, 2019 at 1:14 pm
Teacherwoman…STFU, you have zero knowledge of football. You just spew regurgitated knowledge that you never possessed.
November 12th, 2019 at 2:45 pm
VHIII was the 49th percentile for all CB’s for the 40-yard dash (4.50)
Carlton Davis was the 37th percentile for all CB’s for the 40-yard dash (4.53)
MJ Stewart was the 29th percentile for all CB’s for the 40-yard dash (4.54)
Brent Grimes was the 24th percentile for all CB’s for the 40 yard dash (4.57)
Jordan Whitehead was the 43rd percentile for all S for the 40 yard dash (4.59)
Justin Evans was the 35th percentile for all S for the 40 yard dash (4.60)
Chris Conte was the 66th percentile for all S for the 40 yard dash (4.52)
B.A. saw that. We were slow as hell last year. When Chris Conte is the second fastest player in your secondary, there’s a problem. Who did he and Todd Bowles draft then?
SMB was the 80th percentile for all CB’s for the 40 yard dash (4.42)
Jamel Deal was the 98th percentile for all CB’s for the 40 yard dash (4.30)
Mike Edwards was the 51st percentile for all S for the 40 yard dash (4.56)
Devin White was the 99th percentile for all LB’s for the 40 yard dash (4.42)
November 12th, 2019 at 5:11 pm
Brandon I agree 100 percent on your take. Been saying the same thing for years.
November 12th, 2019 at 8:40 pm
Maybe it’s not a matter of our DB’s being too slow. Maybe it is a matter of these guys not having good football instincts resulting in their being out of position or being easily fooled.
November 12th, 2019 at 9:43 pm
Good stuff Colorado. Although Justin Evans runs way faster than a 4.6 when healthy. Sub 4.5 for sure. Evans is also extremely athletic in general. Dude just can’t stay healthy.
November 12th, 2019 at 10:27 pm
The people in charge of the Bucs draft picks really should be fired.