“The Secondary Was A Mess”
July 17th, 2019
Thinks Bucs’ CB is salvageable.
One reason former NFL general manager Bill Polian is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame is that he had (has?) a sharp eye for talent.
And in studying the Bucs, Polian wouldn’t quite throw in the towel yet on Bucs cornerback Vernon Hargreaves.
Earlier this summer Polian was discussing the Bucs and when speaking about the secondary, Polian stated he’s seen just enough from Hargreaves that he wouldn’t toss him overboard quite yet. But Polian admitted the sands are nearly drained from Hargreaves’ hourglass in Tampa.
“The secondary was a mess last year,” Polian said. “It has been a mess for a while. Vernon Hargreaves is another first-rounder who has not lived up to the promise he has shown. I will say this: He has shown flashes where you say, ‘Hey, what can this guy do? Why does he show you flashes?’
“If you go back and look at the film a lot of [the plays made] are when he is pressing, or a lot of it is when he has had the ability to close on the ball. I think that is the best thing that he does.”
Polian also believes Hargreaves has a good football instinct that offers a team something to work with.
“He’s got what appears to be a good nose for the ball,” Polian said. “But, the other parts have not been great.”
Polian sure sounded like he thought Hargreaves was an awful fit for disgraced former defensive coordinator Mike Smith. Just read between the lines of what Polian said. It sure sounds like he believes Hargreaves is a press corner and he was a fish out of water playing in a zone where he had more cushion than a mattress factory in Minnesota.
Joe suspects we will find out soon if Hargreaves is a better match for Todd Bowles’ defense than he was for Smith’s.
One thing is certain, it’s time for Hargreaves to fish or cut bait. With the Bucs in salary cap hell, and likely to grow worse next year, the Bucs aren’t going to keep Hargreaves around unless they can justify his salary.
July 17th, 2019 at 10:07 am
Hargreaves hurt himself saving a TD pass if i remember correctly in the opener against the Aints.
July 17th, 2019 at 10:16 am
Anyone forget the kid had a very decent rookie season?
Yeah, VH3 started at CB on a 2017 Bucs defense playing soft coverage with a front 7 that couldn’t get pressure, and he was toasted so bad charcoal briquets felt bad for him.
At some point, his coaches could’ve helped him more – rolled coverage over, something. But NO – they kept doing the same things over and over. Well, we all know how it went.
VH3 is the best man coverage corner the Bucs have. It’s not even close. People talk about him like he’s a foregone conclusion to ride the bench. He’s not, and he’ll be considered the top member of the secondary by the time the season is 6 games old.
July 17th, 2019 at 10:27 am
Suspect when it was made and time hasn’t made it better.
July 17th, 2019 at 10:48 am
@Joe … “With the Bucs in salary cap hell, and likely to grow worse next year, the Bucs aren’t going to keep Hargreaves around unless they can justify his salary.”
Am I wrong Joe, or is VHIII slated already to make $9 mil IF he’s still on the team next March? If that’s correct, he’d have to walk on water this year as an outside corner to justify that salary. With Davis. Murphy-Bunting and Dean on the roster, all with excellent ‘length’ and speed to burn, I just can’t see how VHIII beats them out for an outside slot AND walks on water after he does it. I hope he stays healthy this year though because we can use him in nickel or dime packages.
July 17th, 2019 at 11:17 am
We will see if a change in coaching makes a difference with many, many players.
VH3, Spence, Rojo, Benenoch, Cappa, D. Smith, J. Evans….perhaps Gholston, Ryan Smith, MJ Stewart….Carlton Davis….
Some of those 2nd year players may simply get better with experience….
All eyes will be on them.
July 17th, 2019 at 11:19 am
I liked it better when joe had man crushes on women not washed up has beens that the game has passed by…. as much as joe pimps polian he should have his own column right next to the other washed up dinosaur… vh3bust is an immature garbage player and a waste of time for the bucs but you gaytor fans keep hoping the short, slow and stupid midget turns it around…
July 17th, 2019 at 11:33 am
It seems like Licht drafted exclusively 3-4 front 7 and press man DBs for our 4-3 soft zone scheme. Spence is a 3-4 OLB, VH3, davis and MJ are all press man corners, Vea is a 3-4 NT. He either saw the scheme/ coaching change coming 2 years ago, or had no idea how to draft for M. Smiths scheme. Either way i think they will be in a position to excel this year.
July 17th, 2019 at 11:36 am
When has Hargreaves shown flashes? I have yet to see that
July 17th, 2019 at 11:48 am
Vernon flashed in game 1 last year. Durning that game I thought, Alright! This guy is gonna finally reach his potential for us this year. Then he goes down. His loss was immediately felt as the Saints lit us up in the second half.
But those flashes ultimately ment nothing because he gave us nothing last year. Doesn’t matter why you couldn’t make a impact. If you give your team nothing in the NFL you will be replaced…….Sad fact is we can’t count of Vernon for anything this year. That’s just what happens when you give your team nothing.
July 17th, 2019 at 11:51 am
Ive seen these flashes.. I remember that ball he snatched from AJ green At the goal line (preseason 2017) but not much. I again am of the mindset that we’ve had incompetent coaching for a long time in these parts and having BA will make a lot of players “great”
July 17th, 2019 at 11:57 am
It bothers me that our LBs have evaded blame from their part of our awful passing defense. Our secondary deserves all critism they get but our LBs last year were just as bad and maybe worse.
They were a huge part of the problem. It’s very encouraging that we have changed the scheme for that position & are returning just one starter from that group. I didn’t wanna watch another year of them guys getting abused in third and long.
Remember that time when our defense gagged up a first down on third and twelve because a TE was left wide open directly between the hashes? Which game you ask? Every game.
July 17th, 2019 at 11:59 am
lol….if you saw him play in college, you wouldve seen he was a great man press CB….
unfortunately, smitty got a hold of VHG, spence and justin evans and hampered their development…..
VHG will be our best CB this year….book it!!!!
GO BUCS!!!!!
July 17th, 2019 at 12:11 pm
Hargreaves might be the odd man out.
July 17th, 2019 at 12:15 pm
Pretty sad when “THE SHEEP” can see thus but the “REAL FANS ” can’t.
July 17th, 2019 at 12:16 pm
TBBF…nobody misses on that many draft picks.
ITS COACHING!!!
July 17th, 2019 at 12:57 pm
As I recall reading right here on this blog our former Defensive Coordinator Mike Smith said several time that he allows the DB to play were they were most comfortable and play at the depth off the line of scrimmage as they feel they like best. Yes we watched the results every third down and 6 and those DB decided as did First round pick Hargreaves. Over and over and over again. So if as Mr. Polin suggests that Hargreaves is a good player why did that good player and others(paging Mr. Grimes) not play closer to the line of scrimmage?
So very glad we will not see DB’S off coverage when 80% of the plays.
Mr. Hargreaves should be toeing the line this Training Camp. Because the Turk knows his number and were he lives.
Show Me! Do not talk about it, SHOW ME!!!
GO! BUCS!
July 17th, 2019 at 1:17 pm
@Joe
‘Hey, what can this guy do? Why does he show you flashes?”
Sure as hell don’t put him on the outside CB. I’ve been saying he needs to be dropped since BA first got here and was praising VH3 to the lords. He looked good in the nickel (for the first two games he played in reg. season!) last year. This guy is mentally unstable from all the abnormality through his Bucs career.
Needs to be dropped for some dough and bring in Prof. Eric Berry on a one year deal to teach up these kids.
July 17th, 2019 at 1:19 pm
Davis and Dean on the outside.
July 17th, 2019 at 1:39 pm
I can understand going into ‘Awaiting Moderation’ when I disagree with you Joe. But danged, I even end up there now when I agree with you. Guess I need to limit my comments to the weather.
July 17th, 2019 at 1:43 pm
I agree with Polian. VHIII showed flashes and his star status in College was based on Press Man Defense that we now are finally going to. Play VHIII and Sean Bunting as our starting corners and use one of the Safeties to cover the slot. Tell Hargreaves no finger wagging or juvenile antics. Emphasize turnovers. Let Bunting cover the tallest and longest receiver. We need Edwards as our QB of the backfield and Whitehead as our hard hitting Strong Safety.
July 17th, 2019 at 2:40 pm
I also agree with Polian. I think Bowles will find Hargreaves niche in this defense, I think what’s more important for him is to stay healthy. His incessant injuries have kept him out of lineup to much to make a clear cut eval on him. If he goes down early with another injury expect the Bucs to move on. He’s on the bubble for sure with so many bodies now to work with.
July 17th, 2019 at 3:08 pm
@BucEmUp … “TBBF…nobody misses on that many draft picks. ITS COACHING!!!”
All of a sudden the light bulb came on BucEmUp as to why you continually insist that IT’S COACHING, NOR THE LACK OF TALENT. You’re obviously convinced that Jason Licht couldn’t possibly be that terrible as GM. Newsflash … YES HE IS.
Neal hit it out of the park when he wrote … “It seems like Licht drafted exclusively 3-4 front 7 and press man DBs for our 4-3 soft zone scheme. Spence is a 3-4 OLB, VH3, davis and MJ are all press man corners, Vea is a 3-4 NT. He either saw the scheme/ coaching change coming 2 years ago, or had no idea how to draft for M. Smiths scheme.”
And JimmyJack put the nail in the coffin when he added … “It bothers me that our LBs have evaded blame from their part of our awful passing defense. Our secondary deserves all critism they get but our LBs last year were just as bad and maybe worse.
They were a huge part of the problem.”
Smitty took a bad situation, created by Jason Licht, and made it even worse. Injuries didn’t help to be sure, but his poor coaching sealed the deal. The fact that we went 5-11 two years running and also that we’ll have at least 50% turnover on defense this year says it all BucEmUp. Coaching AND talent were BOTH missing.
July 17th, 2019 at 5:56 pm
Life with the leagues worst gm….
July 17th, 2019 at 7:18 pm
Destinjohnny Says:
July 17th, 2019 at 5:56 pm
Life with the leagues worst gm….
The more accurate statement would be outside of sapps glory year the entire franchise is the worst in professional sports history…. the win loss record proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt…. bucs have been the laughingstock of the sports world long before this gm and they will continue to be the worst and most irrelevant sports franchise in history of planet earth long after licht is gone that’s reality
July 17th, 2019 at 8:53 pm
I agree with Bill on this. There is still potential in VHIII, especially under more competent coaching. He’s one more example of how the previous regime misused personnel.
July 18th, 2019 at 9:15 am
The Bucs defense over the past two years has been the worst in NFL history. The new players and coaches have nowhere to go but up.