Franchise Quarterback Chatter
June 15th, 2019
Behind Matthew Stafford?
It may not be as bad as one thinks.
Over at NFL.com, Ali Bhanpuri decided to rank NFL franchises in terms of quarterbacks they have had play for them in the Super Bowl era. Now the Bucs are famous for never developing a quarterback, and when they had a gifted quarterback, those guys got shipped out (Doug Williams, Steve Young, Vinny Testaverde).
For that reason alone, Joe thought the Bucs would be ranked No. 32. But no, the Bucs are not the worst team for quarterbacks. Bhanpur actually has them Bucs ranked No. 29.
Who qualifies for the Bucs?
— Jameis Winston (2015-present): 54 starts | 21-33 | 1 Pro Bowl | 87.8 passer rating
— Brad Johnson (2001-04): 49 starts | 26-23 | 1 Pro Bowl | 83.2 passer rating | 1 SB ring[Matthew] Stafford has been more effective and prolific than both Johnson and Winston, but the former’s got the jewelry, while the latter could be poised for a career resurrection under new head coach Bruce Arians. I’m probably betting too much on Winston’s potential.
Yes, Jameis’ chapter in Bucs history has yet to be finished but Joe understands many fans have closed that book and want the Bucs to do the same. Sad!
Unless Jameis completely melts down this year, Joe actually expects him to return next year. And no, the Bucs wouldn’t have to sign him to a multi-year contract.
June 15th, 2019 at 6:16 pm
I think Jameis has been given every opportunity to succeed. You could argue that he hasn’t had a successful running game or strong offensive line to work with, but that still doesn’t give him a free pass. I think he is surrounded by a lot of talented coaches who will have a good idea by the mid part of the season what they have in Jameis. I don’t think he is a slam dunk for another season, I think he is under a lot of pressure to perform this year. BA will assess what he has at QB, and I think if he doesn’t like what he see, the hammer may fall….
I personally think Jameis will have a breakout year!! He is playing for his career, I think he will succeed and if he fails he may have to move on.
June 15th, 2019 at 6:24 pm
Lol @ Wombat. An unsuccessful run game and middling oline is not every opportunity to succeed. Add in near historically bad defenses and I’d say he would have had to play near perfect to even give this team a chance to win games.
I agree with Wombat in that I believe he has his best year and gets that new contract, or the franchise tag at least. If he melts down this season then I will say, as a huge Jameis supporter, that i have seen enough .
That ain’t gonna happen though, Jameis will be our first franchise QB and bring that super bowl home to Tampa in 2020.
June 15th, 2019 at 6:31 pm
@AAS – I guess BA has set Jameis up to fail then, as we didn’t draft O-line or RB in the draft or sign any big free agents to fix that problem…. I trust BA knows what he is doing on that front, or maybe I am crazy…..
June 15th, 2019 at 6:48 pm
Jameis will likely sign a new deal before the draft, but Bucs still draft QB in round 1. Too good of a class not to.
June 15th, 2019 at 6:49 pm
Wombat- I’m right there with you. You HAVE to believe coaching will make a big difference if you have any high hopes for this team this year. I do have high hopes and I have high expectations for BA and his huge staff (giggidy).
I hope we can snag a RG in FA somehow but even if not I’d expect this oline to be as good or better this season. More continuity with each other, better coaching, and players improving should help.
Defense HAS to be better without Mike Smith’s scheme and we added a ton of young talent and speed. I expect them to be better as well.
Run game should be more strategically used and more emphasized. Ronald Jones should (has to) be better and Barber is a hard nosed runner going for his first and maybe only big contract. That can improve as well.
June 15th, 2019 at 6:51 pm
Wombat I appreciate you being able to stay optimistic about Jameis despite your critiques, but lets be real. Being given every opportunity to succeed is NOT just stacking the WR/TE room and almost completely ignoring the concept of playing complimentary football for years. Seriously, what else have they actually provided for him?
They basically:
-drafted a 20 year old kid into a division with 3 HOF/SB qb’s… -gave him an all-time bad defense, a 2.9 ypc ground game and the worst collection of kickers the league has seen in at least a generation…
-then Dirk literally told him on camera that he “needed to be that guy (Aaron Rodgers)” for the Bucs to win games.
…and people act confused when the kid plays hero ball.
This team has, on average, about 4 games per year in which they hold a 4th quarter lead that is squandered by the defense and ultimately results in a loss. Mind you, in most of these particular games, JW3 played a fairly clean game despite the false narrative that his turnovers lose games (Buffalo 2017 comes to mind… I’ll never forget Jameis throwing for 384/3tds and Tyrod Taylor ripping off 70 yards/3 plays in about 1 minute of game clock to end it)
So, again. Complimentary football. You don’t win without it, and you don’t have “every opporunity to succeed” without it.
Really boggles my mind how people can’t apply their own critical thinking skills when it comes to this type of thing. They just regurgitate.
BA sees what we see. It’s why he keeps talking about the running game and defense. It ain’t rocket science.
June 15th, 2019 at 6:55 pm
BS guys. Jameis has had more than his fair share of opportunities to succeed.
He get no pass from me. His line has help up for him. They are not the causes of the..plethera or interceptions he throws. Or the..missing wide open receivers,
the turnovers,,Its time for hism to either poop..or get off the GD pot..period.
a number one pick is suppose to give you far more than Jameis has. Yes Our defense has to improve by leaps and bounds..and so does Jameis.
June 15th, 2019 at 7:01 pm
Winston has never lived up to being the number 1 pick in the draft …. and has not been truthful to the team ..Keep making excuses but he has had years to improve his accuracy and still makes stupid mistakes …enough is enough ..BIG improvement this year or send him packing and move on !!..
June 15th, 2019 at 7:03 pm
So, long story short, this team is philosophically flawed and not built to win games, despite who’s playing QB. The idea Licht had of drafting a young QB @ #1 and building around him was nice and all, but it was philosophically incorrect in how he went about it. Basically built the team completely backwards, from the outside in. It’s the exact reason it’s taking twice or three times longer than it should have to turn the ship around.
Complimentary/situational football, field position, clock management (running game), strong front 7, competent o-line play, redzone efficiency (again, running game), etc etc.
These are all things that are part of the formula of winning football games, and all of it has almost nothing to do with talent or rosters (but almost all have something to do with coaching). So again, which one of these things has Jameis had the luxury of depending on?
I hereby declare the #weaponsforwinston movement as DEBUNKED.
June 15th, 2019 at 7:14 pm
Im a big Jamie’s supporter but its the NFL. Produce or your gone. This is his make it or brake it year. I expect a pro bowl apperance this year Winston. Make it happen.
June 15th, 2019 at 7:14 pm
Jameis has issues on the field with poor decision making, lack of maturity, failure to follow directions of his coaches, which, combined with his sporadic inaccuracy, causes way too many turnovers. I don’t think most will disagree with that. Maybe given his last six games last year and with BA, Byron, and the like, he will sort it out on the field this year. He may even be back in standing with his teammates to be a team captain since some have gone and time has passed. I hope he wins. I’m a Bucs fan. that’s where it ends with me on being hopeful for Winston. He is not worth the risk for a multiyear contract because the same immaturity and poor judgement on the field has pervaded his life. He’s deceived, disrespected basically everyone, with the NFL finding him sexually touching a stranger without permission…something that could have meant the end of his career had Kate made a phone call right then and there…and proceedings went differently. He is lucky. /abd that after all his baggage from FSU where it was risky bringing him here in the first place. A gamble the Glazers took with much study and work. But then he lied about the Uber incident (saying he was never alone with the driver, tried to say she was confused) and got caught in the lies, then didn’t settle in time so she filed a civil suit and raised it up all over it. When the Bucs drafted him (I did not want Mariota, for the record), I told Joel Glazer myself I trusted their decison, but at first wrongdoing like FSU’s nonsense I would not support him. Not that it matters, but that was my position and about the end of ’16 I felt pretty good about Winston. Until we found that over the very first offseason out of team supervision he went and pulled what he did. So while he may prove to be starting QB material if he improves (I don’t see why he’d be’d be different in his fifth year on the field, frankly) and my view is he’s not fit to be the face of an NFL team. He’s bad for business, period IF they want to him to be the face of this organization. As much as I travel, in other cities the mere mention of Winston brings laughter and ridicule, and it just gets louder when you bring in the Bucs overall. So he just needs to go. Move on. There are other turnover machines with potential that don’t bring the baggage he does. He had it all and threw it away–don’t think he deserves to get it back, and I see too large a sector of ticket-buying fans that feel the same way. He’s not the only reason this team is bleeding fans at RayJay but he is a big one. He has already given the Glazers good reason to send him packing next year. He now needs to show them why they should keep him for business, especially at $20M a year plus when the QB whisperer can mold his own guy out of college and save a lot of cap space to be used somewhere else. I think his hole is too deep from a business perspective. He is not a franchise quarterback. Let him go be someone else’s problem.
June 15th, 2019 at 7:26 pm
New England running backs 2017:
Dion Lewis 5th round
Mike Gillislee 6th round
Rex Burkhead 5th round
New England Offensive Line 2018:
Tackles 7th and 5th round
Guards 3rd and 4th round
Center undrafted
Pittsburgh had 3 undrafted offensive lineman starting last year.
Seattle has invested a lot of high draft choices for the offensive line but their line play has been mostly bad but they still win. They have continued to win after Lynch left their team after 2015. Who is their stud running back – Chris Carson?
June 15th, 2019 at 7:27 pm
@Mike it’s not about giving him a pass.. It’s about not expecting a winning record from a QB on a sh!+ team. It’s like saying you’re gonna get rid of a car because it’s not safe, and you blame the engine. Meanwhile the engine and transmission are actually fine, but the brakes, suspension and anything that would make it safe and reliable are completely shot. The engine doesn’t need to be a V12 (Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning, etc.) to get to your destination, you just need to shore up the extremities so you don’t fly into a ditch.
Jameis is the engine. The stacked receivers are the transmission. Neither of them do jack sh!+ if the brakes and suspension are garbage, and you might seriously injure yourself if you drive it.
It’s all good though. The Glazer’s finally took the ole’ whip into “BA’s Tampa Automotive” over the summer and are tuning her up real nice. He’s got this mechanic named Bowles that I hear is a real WizKid.
June 15th, 2019 at 7:30 pm
Joe if you want to email me or post why I am now always awaiting moderation it would be appreciated.
June 15th, 2019 at 7:33 pm
Winston well have his best year under BA. But its up to the defence, they where the weak point last year. Jamies was alright the last half of the season. But that was last year it has no bearing on this year. Same with being a bad team. That was last year. It has nothing to do with this year. Owner’s finally got a decent coach to get this ship pointed in the right direction. Ive got all the confidence in this coaching staff untill other wise shown. The Joes have no confidence untill other wise shown.
June 15th, 2019 at 7:38 pm
Joe says “Unless Jameis completely melts down this year, Joe actually expects him to return next year. And no, the Bucs wouldn’t have to sign him to a multi-year contract.”
I sense another Winston “what if” article soon. Intrigued, for sure. So I assume there is a possible franchise tag for one year Joe is thinking about? Interesting thought in that he’d still have to play enough this year to overcome any temptation to draft a QB in first round…as the franchise tag would not help with cap issues and it could just make the relationship between Winston and his team rockier than ever. Would Winston take one or two years at $23-25M? Not if someone else would want to lock him up for more. An maye the Bucs business strategy would not stand for it. In this case, Winston would have to be lights out this year also to convince the Bucs and another team to take a risk. One more false move and the NFL said he could be banned for good, if I recall. Lots of possibilities…will be good discussion. My bet is he is about the same as he’s been over four years, he moves on, and becomes someone’s very good backup QB, for a lot less cash. He’s even young enough to go try out baseball if he wants.
June 15th, 2019 at 8:00 pm
Geno I love your post. It is proof that you don’t have to make major investments to get good OL play. What it takes is coaching and development.
Our last coaching staff did not develope a single OL player in their entire time. Not one G not one T not one C. They obvisously did a poor job coaching that part of the game.
The good news is we are not in a bad position for Bruce to come in with his staff and get production from the OL. We have talent & high contract players. We have young guys that can be developed & we have some journeyman experienced players that can be reliable players. With good coaching there will be no issues.
It’s time to stop looking in the rearview mirror and worrying about how bad they were. We are entering a new era and it’s to to worry about how good they can be.
GO BUCS!!!
Let us good good then we can be great.
June 15th, 2019 at 8:12 pm
Maga,
I believe it’s better to start with and stay with a business focus when looking at the situation. Then there’s no player baggage to divert the focus. The focus is or should be entirely on Cost vs Production. Then its comparing alternative Costs vs Production .
Wins have been used as subterfuge to get fans looking at all the wrong things and the conversations that come with it reflects how misplaced fans focus is on the subject.
The idea that a QB is and can be only evaluated by wins and losses is too stupid entertain as legitimate. Character concerns are legit and should be in whatever formula used in evaluating risk be included and accounted for.
But the fastest most accurate assessment is one based on Cost vs Production. Interesting is that the winstonites, people who have lost any balance in discussing the player, build such a convincing case against retaining him at the going rate for QBs. Their entire argument is to diminish his role while enhancing the value of every other position. If you accept that argument and move forward. But now with a cost that’s nearly 3 times current,
There’s nothing to support any decision but one. And it’s exactly opposite of the outcome that line of thinking is trying to support.
Did Fitzpatrick give the team , more-less-about the same, production as winston? What is the cost difference between the two.
There’s no opinion and anything else is based on predicting the future.
June 15th, 2019 at 8:21 pm
Jimmy,
Marpet is one offensive lineman that has come from a D3 school, and has developed into a quality starter. So there’s been one.
June 15th, 2019 at 8:32 pm
Jimmy,
D. Smith signed a new contract , which by the way is this teams measuring stick in evaluating the success of a draft pick, and was highly rated as a free agent by the market. Marpet was resigned as well. So that’s 2 lineman that have been developed and resigned by the team which is contrary to your opinion of the the coaches unable to develop a single player. The argument could be that the measure of the management on player development is not in line with what we see on the field. That is a real issue to address.
But that’s not what you’ve been chirping about. So the issue is not that the team hasn’t developed a single lineman, because in their minds they have and that’s not open to debate. They’ve resigned 2 players.
Is it possible to make an effort to focus on what is actually happening on the team and less on things that are creations of a fictional team?
June 15th, 2019 at 8:39 pm
When are yall going to really understand football? The quarterback position is the most overrated position on the field. The national media has pushed this position for fantasy football purposes. I have never played fantasy football so I watch football cause I love the game. I’m 40 years old and I have been watching football for about 30 years. I remember when it was about team. I listened to the joebucfan podcast and they said Joe Montana threw 2 interceptions in the game against the cowboys in the NFC championship back in the day . Now how come despite of his 2 interceptions the 49ers still had a chance to win the game ? Cause back then and even now it’s about team ball not quarterback. How do Andrew Luck throw so many interceptions and they still make the playoffs or big Ben. But Jamies throw 1 or 2 interceptions in a game and the team lose yall say and the national media say that’s what lost the game in the first half. But it seems to me other teams still finds a way to win . Look at Rogers and his 35 TDs and 5 interceptions and they still didn’t make the playoffs. So what should that tell yall it takes a team to win not quarterback. To all the people who bought into the hold quarterback win and lose games all of yall are not real football fans yall are fantasy football people or players cause yall don’t know nothing about football or what you watching on TV if most yall are even watching the bucs game. Yall watch the highlights and listen and believe what the national media say. Learned the game get off the fantasy football .
June 15th, 2019 at 8:42 pm
Oneilbucs:
Sorry. The NFL (or college) is not 1960s high school ball where a quarterback’s main job is to hand off to a fullback or maybe pitch a ball to a halfback.
Also, it helps to mix in the return key here and there.
June 15th, 2019 at 9:03 pm
D1 both of those players were developed under Lovie Smith as HC. Dirk inherited them & you could easily make the case that both regressed under Dirk which itself is very damming evidence of poor coaching. 2nd & 3rd year players(especially OL) are expected to improve. Not get worse.
As I said Dirk did not develope one single OL player. Not one G not one T not one C. Nothing.
June 15th, 2019 at 9:03 pm
Jameis is not a franchise qb
Players who have earned that label can carry a talent deficient team to wins and be the reason they win not have 2,599 excuses made of why they haven’t developed after over 50 starts
June 15th, 2019 at 9:09 pm
D1, interesting take. Certainly clinical. I’d agree that cost is both the monetary stuff people see as well as those others factored/formula’d in..some of which are hard to quantify. So I tend to opine signing Winston up for big deal, be it a year or longer, is going to “cost” much more than the money he gets as a salary and money on the cap. We could even look at risk-reward again and put it in the column for taking another gamble on him. Indeed, my take is he’s not worth it…don’t think he can get to a level of production that will make him worth it.
June 15th, 2019 at 9:10 pm
Joe when I look at all the teams that wins . They run the ball and play good or decent defense. Why not play old school football? Every body that is so gun hold on quarterbacks seems to lose a lot of games. The Patriots won by running the ball. The 2015 Broncos won on running the ball and playing good defense. Why don’t do that ? Jamies don’t have to throw the ball 50 times, why not just be balanced? The chargers got Philip Rivers and they never played in a super bowl game and they ain’t going this year. But he does not get criticized . But Jamies have to win despite of a trash defense and trash running game. But my question is why do they get passes for not winning just like Andrew Luck did when his team suck?
June 15th, 2019 at 9:29 pm
@Loyaltotheend Section 312…it is not 2,599 excuses…it is only 2,598. Joe reminded that DJax really did Pearl Harbor Winston, so that excuse is of the list.
June 15th, 2019 at 10:41 pm
This is nice. Several columns in a row without the ramblings of the resident “Realist”.
June 15th, 2019 at 11:43 pm
Jimmy ,
C’mon Man, I am not buying the narrative that all thing wrong with the Bucs
were Lovie successes or Koetter failures.
Marpet, has played three positions since he has been here. Why ? He was doing a fine job his first year and so was D Smith ,not because of Lovie. Give the credit to Logan Mankins and Gosder Cherilous for taking them under their wings
Jason Licht came out and said that Marpet could be a center when he drafted him
Koetter did not sign J R Sweezy to play center . Licht signed J R Sweezy,
with the idea he was going to move Marpet to center. That is only regression
that Marpet had and if it wasn’t for Licht that probably wouldn’t have happened.
June 15th, 2019 at 11:56 pm
Great post, Mike Johnson! Your sentiments are exactly how I feel about the situation too. Glad to know another Buc Fan shares that sentiment.
June 15th, 2019 at 11:57 pm
A new and more powerful Jason Licht came out of the Lovie firing. That was a big mistake,IMO. One of the best things for 2019 will be a reduced role on personnel decisions for Jason Licht.
Let him work on undrafted free agents, practice squad players and waiver wire acqusitions.
June 16th, 2019 at 12:43 am
In other just as exciting news, I saw Jameis driving not too long ago.
June 16th, 2019 at 5:12 am
Listened to another Bucs related podcast yesterday where BA’s daughter-in-law (I believe I heard that right) who has her own fantasy football podcast…she obviously has the ear of BA and I was surprised, sort of, to hear her take on Jameis being long for the Bucs world.
She was very pragmatic. Basically she said, “If Jameis doesn’t perform well under BA, he’s just not going to become a good QB in the NFL period. His porch is one-year.”
Intimated that BA would have no problem moving on from Jameis after this season if he doesn’t deliver.
Lie I said, pragmatic. Fair…I like the inside take.
June 16th, 2019 at 5:13 am
“Like” I said…
June 16th, 2019 at 7:07 am
My projection continues to be that Arians, if his health holds up like he’s working on it to do, will be here longer than both Licht and Winston. And that Arians will be three years at best.
June 16th, 2019 at 8:13 am
“Which NFL QB can take this Bucs team into the playoffs?
No one. Rogers cant. Brady cant. Mahomes cant. No one.”
Kobe Faker
June 16th, 2019 at 9:05 am
Not a lot of QBs win superbowls on their rookie contract.
In my book, barring an off season meltdown, Jameis has done enough to get a new contract. Just not at more than say 20-23 million. So far.
I do not count most of the losing against him. Winning is a team effort. Jameis always puts everyhing on the field, good or bad.
The Bucs had a QB curse because they lacked the patience to allow a QB to mature. That usually happens after the rookie contract…with a few exceptions.
What has he done?
He has become the best QB this team has ever had. Period. The rest will come with maturity and team development.
June 16th, 2019 at 9:12 am
If you hire a passing coach, there will be no running game. Period.
So there will NOT be a running game under Arians. People are fooling themselves. Offensive coaches ALWAYS prefer passing. Defensive coaches prefer running.
June 16th, 2019 at 9:21 am
If Winston fails, you have Gabbert 48 tds 47 ints not good.
June 16th, 2019 at 9:34 am
Until Jameis starts winning, Doug Williams was the best qb Bucs have had.
It’s unfortunate Williams was victim of racism and let go.
June 16th, 2019 at 11:55 am
While BA and Koetter are both 4 Vertical offenses, the main differences between the two is Koetter relies on individuals to win their matchups for plays. BA’s offense schemes players open such as flooding one of side of the field, motion to help QB get read on defense, and offers more than just 3 receivers running 10+ yard routes. We will see deep, middle, and short option for Winston flooding one side of the field. Screens will make a bigtime comeback and RB passing will not be an after thought. Folks the level of play design is night and day different from Koetter’s offense. Quote from Koetter “Jimbo’s playbook was far more advanced than his.” This quote was from Koetter when they went to FSU to speak to their coaching staff about Winston predraft.
June 16th, 2019 at 12:07 pm
“Good post Tex
There is only a handfull of people that knows about offense and the QB position than BA
BA knew the weaknesses of the 2018 Bucs team and he knows what to do to improve the offense however
BA strength is also his weakness
Confidence is important in this top level of competition but there is a fine line between too much and entering stubbornness
History repeats itself. Like the past BA s downfall will be the offensive line.”
Kobe Faker
June 16th, 2019 at 6:57 pm
Winston makes his mistakes, but he also makes plays. How about we get a Defense that can stop someone so Winston doesn’t feel like he has to score every time he has the ball. How about we get a running game so we’re not in 3rd and long all of the time. Winston has made mistake that have helped put us in big holes early in games. Maybe if he didn’t feel like he had to make every play he wouldn’t turn the ball over so much. It’s got to be hard playing QB knowing that if you punt the ball you lose. Winston has played QB better than the defense has played defense and better than the OL and RBs have run the ball. Let’s not put the blame solely on Winston because the Bucs haven’t done him any favors.
June 16th, 2019 at 7:32 pm
Jimbo Fisher must be the true qb whisperer… Christian Ponder, EJ Manuel and Winston had such success in college that they went in 1st round..
Much like Ponder and Manuel was, JW is overrated and after playing the same style in college and 4 years pro, he’s a lost cause… The Bucs will drag this out missing out on winners to try and make him ‘suddenly’ better!…
June 17th, 2019 at 6:54 am
“Unless Jameis completely melts down this year” ???? You mean, AGAIN??? Groundhog Day, indeed.