Trap Set?
August 14th, 2018
“We’re hoping to work some magic, Rex.”
Joe is not trying to annoy Bucs fans but it seems Joe’s biggest fear entering this season was all but confirmed by ageless Bucs corner Brent Grimes yesterday.
Joe has maintained, based on two years of evidence, that either Mike Smith and his secondary coaches are not effective coaching up rookie corners but are effective coaching veterans.
Every rookie corner the Bucs have had has gotten worse under this crew, not better or even maintained a consistent rate of play. But veteran corners are a different story. Grimes has continued his Pro Bowl level through two Bucs seasons and last year when the Bucs brought in veteran Robert McClain, he played better than just about anyone expected or hoped.
So yesterday Grimes was asked about Vernon Hargreaves, who went from a respectable rookie to being demoted to nickel corner. Grimes lauded Hargreaves for having the talent needed to be a stud corner and that he is a baller. But later, when Grimes was asked about young corners playing in Mike Smith’s defense, what Grimes said nearly knocked Joe back in his chair.
“There’s a lot of things you have to learn to play off [coverage] effectively,” Grimes said.
Rookies are just getting their feet wet in the NFL. And taking Grimes’ words verbatim, Smith’s off-coverage defense is complex.
This is not only what Joe feared but Joe hoped as a result the Bucs would have signed at least one veteran corner. They did obtain two-year veteran corner De’Vante Harris off waivers over the weekend, still a young guy but at least not a green rookie.
So rather than signing a veteran corner (or two?) the Bucs elected to draft two in the second round. As a result, did the Bucs set themselves a trap?
At best, a pair of rookie corners are expected to master Smith’s complex, off-coverage defense right off the bat against the Saints (Drew Brees), Eagles (Carson Wentz) and Steelers (Ben Roethlisberger)? And Ronde Barber said Thursday night the Bucs are even training rookie CB M.J. Stewart to play outside, nickel and safety.
Does anyone have any extra Xanax?
August 14th, 2018 at 5:36 am
Insanity–doing the same thing, the same way, expecting different results.
Stubbornness–doing the same thing regardless of the outcome
NFL coaches-consistent stubbornness, lack of review of their work, plunging ahead full bore doing the same thing in the same way…
Is it any wonder they drive fans crazy, hinder the career of rookies, leave a legacy of losing, and get fired again and again and again?? Seems to me that a bit of self-reflection might help. But, that’s never going to happen…And, the Bucs will keep on losing and keep on losing…
August 14th, 2018 at 5:47 am
But… But Joe just wrote a couple days ago about how Ryan Smith “improved” during his “rookie” season at CB last year….
Its like there’s TWO of you or something…. LOL
Better get this silly notion all out of your system now Lee – because both rookie corners look like they are ready to ball out this year – and they certainly didn’t go from knowing nothing about this Buccaneers defense – to where they are now all on their own now did they??
August 14th, 2018 at 6:01 am
Yes Joe, there really is a monster under the bed and a boogeyman in the closet. So what if “Smith’s off-coverage defense is complex”? So what if “Bucs are even training rookie CB M.J. Stewart to play outside, nickel and safety”? How dare Smitty expect a lot out of his rookies. It’s his job to dummy down the defense so that it’s easy on rookies, doesn’t he know that?
Here’s another thought: why don’t we wait for a little while and see what evolves from this year’s defense. After Thursday night’s performance, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see several rookies starting in our Secondary … Davis outside opposite Grimes, Stewart at nickel and possibly even Whitehead at safety opposite 2nd-year guy Evans. That’d be an incredibly young Secondary, and the only way it could possibly succeed is if the pass rush really balled out and if our LBs dominated. Unfortunately I didn’t see either of those happening Thursday night,. But again, have to be patient and give this defense time to gel. After all, it is very complex.
August 14th, 2018 at 6:13 am
They better have a new plan start of regular season An this better be a ploy for everyone else but feeling is there going to have a rotation of corners opposite of grimes this year playing press off man an see who does the best I really hope year 3 is Vern’s year but even if he’s suited for Nickle
August 14th, 2018 at 6:16 am
Fire this idiot already. Get ready to watch slants all year long and mike smith sitting in the booth like a lump on a log thinking they’ll get them the next play.
Dude should not have a job.
August 14th, 2018 at 6:16 am
Can I say it again? Have I said it enough?
FIRE MIKE SMTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 14th, 2018 at 6:19 am
“Does anyone have any extra Xanax?”
Sorry, Joe. I’m saving up all my extras to donate to the “Medicate Jameis for a Rational 1st Quarter” fund.
August 14th, 2018 at 6:20 am
Apparently, we can’t coach up rookie kickers, RBs or DEs also…..what a bunch of hogwash……after all, Rojo missed a catch……poor coaching?
I will accept that we just may not have the talent with Hargreaves or Smith….and what do you expect from UDFA Elliott?…..we will see with Stewart, Davis & Whitehead…..if none of them turn out it could be as much on Licht as it is on coaching.
August 14th, 2018 at 6:32 am
First things first. Show me we can stop the run…..then pressure the QB…..THEN defend the pass. Not that worried about Stewart, Davis, and Whitehead just yet. They have done better than I expected so far. I want to see our rookie DT in action. That’s my concern at this point.
August 14th, 2018 at 6:46 am
Look for Hargreaves to have a bounce-back season, and no, I am not a Gators fan. Hargreaves has the tools to be a very good cover corner outside or inside. The issue with Vernon was A) injury b) Buccaneers lack of pressure up front c) the scheme (the Buccs couldn’t find ways to pressure the QB so they played off coverage to avoid getting beat deep; well see a lot more man this year which is good because it forces QB’s to either force the ball in there or hold onto it longer than they would like to) D) it is one of the hardest positions to come in the NFL and make an immediate impact and E) he wasn’t able to play his best, which was aggressive due to the aforementioned reasons above.
August 14th, 2018 at 7:01 am
[You know that’s not true. Why do you lie? — Joe]
August 14th, 2018 at 7:05 am
Yeah you need more than one Xanax Joe. He didn’t confirm anything except it was a bad draft pick. Licht drafted a slot corner to play outside and that’s it. The two rookies played well in their debut but your just looking to something to try to make your stupid narrative stick even by taking something unrelated and completely irrelevant by Grimes to do it. It’s really dumb that you can’t see you haven’t mentioned one single cornerback we’ve had on the roster that comes even close to the talent Grimes has but you keep beating this drum which just as stupid as calling Winston America’s quarterback so I’m assuming the same guy is responsible for the two worst narratives about bucs players ever
August 14th, 2018 at 7:39 am
Off coverage is easy to play if the D Line can get pressure on the QB.
August 14th, 2018 at 7:40 am
tbbf if you really believe another coaching staff…a GOOD coaching staff wouldn’t get more out of these corners nothing will ever change your mind. At what point would you be convinced it was coaching? How many young corners have to get burned for any of Mike Smith’s fan club members to finally admit it’s stubborn, vanilla coaching that lacks adjustments. Its even starting to get talked about outside of Tampa. Just wait for the slaughter to start in new orleans
August 14th, 2018 at 7:44 am
BucEmUp Says:
“Just wait for the slaughter to start in new orleans”
Geebus – we really DO have the worst “fans” on the planet…
August 14th, 2018 at 7:56 am
@ Buckemup
The knock on the coaches is primarily for not being able to coach up Ryan Smith……I think Hargreaves is a very good slot corner and it’s not necessarily coaching that causes him problems on the outside….maybe scheme…..Sure that is coaching but it has nothing to do with development.
And, if you expected great things from Javeon Elliott, UDFA…..then why ever draft a corner….you can just pick an UDFA and coach him up.
We will see what kind of players we get out of Stewart, Davis and Whitehead…..I still maintain it’s the players not the coaching.
August 14th, 2018 at 7:58 am
Sometimes I just shake my head at some JBFers short memory. In yesterday’s JBF article on VHIII, Brent Grimes said of Hargreaves, ““In my eyes, when he’s playing inside in nickel he really seems to be much more comfortable.”
So VHIII’s skill set matches up best at nickel in Grimes’ opinion. Hmmm, many others have said the same thing I believe. So fans like BucEmUp totally dismiss that in favor of “How many young corners have to get burned for any of Mike Smith’s fan club members to finally admit it’s stubborn, vanilla coaching that lacks adjustments?”
Lacks adjustments? The REAL adjustment BucEmUp is playing VHIII where his skillset best helps the TEAM WIN. Sounds to me like that’s at nickel. Dumb coaches don’t survive in the NFL. Neither do ‘vanilla’ coaches who don’t make ‘adjustments’. NFL offenses are far too sophisticated to allow that. Our bigger problem in the Secondary has been lack of experienced TALENT. You’ve gotta have TALENT to start with, but then it takes time to gain the necessary experience. Playing musical rookies back there doesn’t work.
August 14th, 2018 at 8:13 am
“You are a hack. Period. I wish I could get paid to spout off random stream-of-consciousness thoughts and pass it off as journalism. I’m convinced that the traffic on this website is mostly due to the lack of viable outlets in Tampa. You are putrid water in the desert.”
——–
Yet you are still here!?!?
August 14th, 2018 at 8:32 am
“Musical Rookies”…….nice one!!!
Sort of like when you have 3 QBs….you don’t have any.
August 14th, 2018 at 8:52 am
‘Does anyone have any extra Xanax?’
____________________________________________________
Sorry. I’m already doubling up on mine. 🙁
August 14th, 2018 at 8:53 am
We’ll see if Joe’s notion of Smith “not forgetting how to coach” actually pans out.
What do the best coaches in the league do in REAL TIME? They adjust. Can Mike Smith adjust from worst defense to at least an average defense?
Inquiring minds!
August 14th, 2018 at 9:13 am
Pickgrin- you’re my favorite poster and I’m an optimist as far as this team but I truly believe that line doomed the season. This league is all about short passes now. Off coverage allows the run and allows the short passes. 3rd and 5 slants all year. It also allows quarterbacks to sit and relax because when you have the short pass ALWAYS available there’s never gonna be pressure. If people watch the game today and think you don’t have to press there’s no hope for them. I will guarantee Kamara gashes us outside the tackles and brees hits his receivers short and often. There’s one thing in my mind that dooms this team and it’s mike Smith’s off coverage.
August 14th, 2018 at 9:15 am
It’s even better that mike smith says he allows corners to play close but grimes just said he coaches an off coverage scheme. It’s a passive defense and it’s all about blitzing and man coverage now a days. Starting to realize why nobody gets sacks under this regime. The only game I remember them pressing was the Seattle game. And they stifled them. Then the Dallas game dak sliced and diced with short passes
August 14th, 2018 at 9:16 am
If you believe Joe is wrong, that means you believe:
1. Grimes is conning people.
2. That Javier Elliott, Ryan Smith and Vernon Hargreaves actually have improved since their rookie seasons.
If you truly believe No. 2, then you and Joe are watching two different teams. There simply isn’t enough bullsh!t in a Clinton County, (Ill.) cow pasture to spread to have Joe hoodwink readers that those three corners improved.
August 14th, 2018 at 9:23 am
Never wrote that.
August 14th, 2018 at 9:59 am
Joe- Well, if you didn’t, that’s too bad because it’s been the only decent support or explanation for that atrocity of a defense.
My opinion is that he should’ve been gone. PERIOD! End of story. No winning franchise would tolerate a DC to take an already bad defense, make it worse, then retain them.
My only hope is that the talent supersedes the coaching because I personally have no faith in Mike Smith.
August 14th, 2018 at 10:00 am
This off coverage drives me bananas. Of course press everytime is silly, but not throwing WR off their routes makes the offenses day easier
August 14th, 2018 at 10:07 am
Joe you one hundred percent wrote smith didn’t just forget how to coach after the 9-7 season. That’s a fact
August 14th, 2018 at 10:34 am
Defense Rules
I appreciate you because you appreciate defense. Your staunch defense of Smitty confounds me.
In all fairness, I think there are a number of coaches on this team who just don’t have it. Watching Smitty and his crew run this paper mâché defense is painful. D line can’t rush , LB’s can’t make a tackle. Secondary doesn’t cover. He is the DC right?
Unless you see a miracle turnaround coming
This D doesn’t look to coordinated.
August 14th, 2018 at 11:10 am
what a minute…..first smitty said the defense was failing because of “communication”……lol….
now we’re finding out that smitty’s off coverage is “complex”….lol….this is all BS….lol….
grimes said VHG skill set is best for nickel….BS….grimes doesn’t want to throw smitty under the bus…..translation: he’s a man press CB…..he’s comfortable playing at the LOS…..not 12yards off…..
smitty’s defense aint complex…..its outdated!!!!!!…..no adjustments…..no creativity….an adjustment would be moving the CB’s up to the LOS not moving a CB inside and replacing him with a less talented CB…..
folks talking about patients….NAWL….not in 2018!!!!!!!……the defense has TC and PS to gel not 8weeks into the season where we’ve had the same lousy DC and the same lousy scheme…..
smitty defense is just like his personality…..soft and passive…..Arthur Blank tried to warn us!!!!!!!
#NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!….#PRESSURESONTHECOACHES!!!!…GO BUCS!!!!
August 14th, 2018 at 11:16 am
smitty and his defense has had too many excuses!!!!!!!!
lack of talent
lack of depth
lack of communication
complexity
needs time to gel
SOS
HK
when are folks going to hold smitty accountable!!!!!!
#NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!….#PRESSURESONTHECOACHES!!!!…GO BUCS!!!!
August 14th, 2018 at 11:38 am
I caught the replay of Vikes Broncos. Specifically, to watch where the number 1 Defense played it’s corners.,,SURPRISE it wasn’t 10- 12 yards off.
Granted their D line is awesome and their LBs can cover and tackle. More importantly, they are well coached.
August 14th, 2018 at 11:42 am
I’ve never had cofidence in Mike Smith and I never will. Hell, he don’t have confidence either. He sits his A.. in the pressbox during games and coaches. Come on Man!!!
August 14th, 2018 at 11:44 am
What’s so difficult? Line up with 10 yards of cushion. Start back peddling at the snap. Run after the guy after he’s caught the ball for a first down.
August 14th, 2018 at 2:26 pm
Haha. Remembering all of you dying to get Smitty resigned a couple years ago makes me laugh. Shows what you know.
August 14th, 2018 at 2:37 pm
AND OMG!!! ROBERT MCCLAIN IS STILL ON THE STREET AND NOT AT OBP WHEN WE HAVE THIS HUGE CB DEFICIT???!!!
August 14th, 2018 at 3:43 pm
I don’t mind a complex defense that fools QBs and disguises coverages and is aggressive and uses press coverage most of the time along with rushing the QB. I am no fan of unimaginative bend don’t break zone defense with the corners playing off. That is Lovie losing defense. When Jameis started and he first played the Titans with Mariota, the Titans used a complex disguise defense that was also aggressive with a top DC and on Offense used a spread formation with RPOs along the lines of what Urban Meyer used at Florida to win two national championships and Mariota carved up our stupid zone defense and humiliated the Bucs. We’ll see how good of a DC Smitty is with the Titans this Saturday! Smitty now has talented Defensive personnel so there will be no excuses if he fails again. Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
August 14th, 2018 at 4:50 pm
at the risk of being assailed as a spreadsheet nerd or whatnot, let’s just do a little math and talk small sample size. Joe has 2 trends he harps on with this coaching staff and rookies – 1) mike smith’s rookie corners plateau and bust and 2) dirk doesn’t trust rookie RBs. Both, while based on factual observations, are not based on enough facts to form a useful prediction
for #1, you’re ignoring the already quite high failure rate in the NFL for rookies, especially outside the top 2 rounds. Other than Hargreaves the bucs have invested no meaningful draft capital into players who are “supposed” to flourish in the pros. So really it’s a sample size of one highly drafted rookie that your fear is based on. The Ryan Smiths of the world never had much of a shot to begin with, but they’re obsessed over because there were no meaningful draft picks at CB in particular to shift our hope and attention to. And yes Hargreaves has disappointed so far, but so have a substantial number of highly drafted CBs who have never set foot in a Mike Smith meeting room
for #2, there’s the glaring example of overlooking Devonta Freeman but other than that everywhere Dirk has had to choose between a rookie and a vet, the vet has pretty clear NFL pedigree that alleviates pressure to play the rookie. Freeman’s rookie year aside (and we don’t know what he was struggling with in his first training camp), there has never been a less proven obstacle for a rookie RB seeking a starting job under Koetter
when you consider rookie success rates and the tiny sample size you are using to make grand assertions, it all seems a bit overstated and not a great predictor of what might happen with this rookie RB or these highly drafted rookie DBs
August 14th, 2018 at 5:51 pm
pick6
Well thought out post. I believe we all make this error fairly frequently…imputing too much on results from a small sample size.
August 14th, 2018 at 10:10 pm
From what Joe has been told, Robert McClain has a much higher evaluation of his talent than NFL GMs have.
Notice the Bucs are not the only team scraping for corners. And still McClain is unemployed.
August 14th, 2018 at 10:12 pm
Joe swears if the Bucs defense is struggling come October and Smith pulls this line out, Joe is going to have kittens.
If, into his third season as defensive coordinator, communication is still an issue, then the problem might just lay at the feet of the communicator.