Key To Bucs Defense?
July 3rd, 2018
Can he play outside?
If Bucs corner Vernon Hargreaves can resurrect his career, it would go a long way to helping the Bucs trying to survive life without Jameis.
We all know America’s Quarterback, Pro Bowler Jameis Winston, is suspended for the first three games of the season. It is the toughest strength of schedule for an opening three weeks in the Super Bowl era.
All three of the first three opponents have lethal quarterbacks (Drew Brees, potentially Carson Wentz and Ben Roethlisberger). So with a rookie or Ryan Smith (!) starting opposite Brent Grimes, that corner will get tested early and often until he (whoever that may be) can prove himself competent.
Jenna Laine of ESPN wonders if that corner could possibly be Hargreaves.
No one really knows what to expect from Hargreaves, who took several steps back in 2017. His confidence seemed to wane when he lined up outside and had to play off coverage. He also struggled with run fits against the Arizona Cardinals, but he improved when he lined up at nickelback and was able to use more of his physicality. The Bucs have had him play outside and inside this offseason. If Ryan Smith and Carlton Davis fail to beat him out on the outside, he’s going to assume a large chunk of responsibility again opposite Brent Grimes, and he would likely continue moving inside during nickel situations. Can Hargreaves handle matching up against the likes of Odell Beckham Jr., Michael Thomas, Julio Jones, Calvin Ridley, Ted Ginn Jr., Antonio Brown, Nelson Agholor and JuJu Smith-Schuster?
This is why Joe is scared to death the Bucs will go 0-3 and the playoffs, and potentially jobs will be lost.
Could Hargreaves be the savior of the defense? When he was a rookie, he played OK for a rookie. And with him starting outside, the Bucs damn near made the playoffs and had a five-game stretch where they were dominant defensively.
Then last year for whatever reason, the wheels fell off for Hargreaves.
Joe knows Bucs AC/DC-loving general manager Jason Licht didn’t draft Hargreaves 11th overall to play nickel corner. As least based on underwear football season, it sure looks as though that’s where Hargreaves will play.
Hargreaves’ detractors (Joe’s looking right at you, the PFF tribe) cited the reason he stunk as a rookie (in their minds) was how many times he was targeted. This is such BS.
Think about it: On one side of the field was Grimes. On the other side of the field was a rookie. Who the hell wouldn’t target a rookie over Grimes? That’s just common sense.
July 3rd, 2018 at 12:11 am
If he plays the outside and he’s the key then this defense is doomed. To many rookie corners start in the nfl, he had his shot on the outside and I don’t think he wins the training camp battle at least I hope. In the slot on but I’ve seen enough of him and Ryan Smith to last a lifetime. Ryan smooth welcome to special teams, we can cut that veteran safety we have as special teams Captain and keep one of the young safeties instead.
July 3rd, 2018 at 12:18 am
What resulted from those targets highlighted how bad he was and yes rookie or not opponents knew to throw his way because he was stinking it up.
July 3rd, 2018 at 12:23 am
He should be a man corner. Mike smith is the new “coach my scheme”. Vh3 was never good playing off. Now when he man up he played lights out. Then Mike smith says it’s his choice for his comfort. Vh3 gets hurt and everyone plays off. Mike smith throwing ppl under the bus doesn’t help this kid development.
July 3rd, 2018 at 1:04 am
Send 2nd round pick in 2019 and 1st round pick in 2020 to Arizona for Patrick Peterson and Mike Glennon or Sam Bradford.
July 3rd, 2018 at 1:42 am
One interception in two years. Clearly last year Smith moved him off the receivers for whatever reason when even despite his size he’s better when pressing the receiver. You got Big 6-5 225 pound receivers coming at his 5-11 200 pound frame and he’s 7 yards off the line is your reason his skill is being questioned. Don’t think he backed off the line on his own,he was coached to do it. While at Wharton and Florida he was up on the line mostly pressing and jamming receivers.
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:34 am
Lamarcus,
Are you suggesting that Har plays man %100 of the time?
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:46 am
11th overall for a KR who doesn’t return kicks. Sadly, it could be worse the Bucs could still be starting VERNER OR Jenkins. I certainly hope Vita isn’t another bust 1st rounder. I’ve been assured he isn’t.
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:52 am
There is nothing wrong vh3, It is all in his head. Some of Grimes swagger and confidence needs to rub off on him. Hey JOE, do you think the Bucs cough up a high pick for Beals in the suplimental draft? and do you think it’s worth it? Even though you think the staff isn’t capable of developing corners?
July 3rd, 2018 at 6:50 am
I thought for a second this was another piece about Jameis (his name appeared twice in the first 2 paragraphs) but luckily I was wrong. It’s actually about another Bucs’ 1st rnd selection who’s failed to perform to inflated expectations.
VHIII decent but not spectacularly his rookie year … playing outside opposite Brent Grimes. Heavily targeted but he survived. Started all 16 games; even had 1 INT. And yet he only had 9 passes defended (PD), versus 24 PD for Brent Grimes (who led the NFL by the way). Interestingly, McDougald (a SAFETY) had 10 PD that year, 1 more than VHIII, and we let him go.
Tend to think 2 things happened in 2016. For one, other teams got lots of film on VHIII & figured out his weaknesses (at 5’10”, 205 lbs, and not being particularly fast OR quick he’ll never be the 2nd coming of Brent Grimes). For another, I think the safeties, especially McDougald, were favoring his side to provide help … it apparently worked, especially in the 2nd half of the season, since we went 9-7).
VHIII got exposed in 2017 IMO because: (1) he doesn’t have the height, speed or quickness to cover superstar WRs; (2) other teams know his tendencies & weaknesses; and most important, (3) he doesn’t seem to have the ability to shake off bad plays. Vernon’s better off playing inside at nickel IMO. Carlton Davis, Ryan Smith or a yet-to-be-signed vet will win the outside CB job.
July 3rd, 2018 at 6:55 am
Game 1: Michael Thomas – does most of his damage from the slot
Game 2: Nelson Agholor slot receiver
GAME 3: JuJu Smith-Schuster (and Antonio Brown) – Slot receiver
I hope VHIII can succeed outside ’cause having him in the slot is really a wasted draft pick.
July 3rd, 2018 at 7:17 am
Teams got tape on him…he’s toast. Pass rush will certainly help but he’ll be targeted and mentally he doesn’t seem to hold up.
I remember last training camp watching highlights of DeSean blow by him over and over….Jackson isn’t big and he got off the line with no problem against Hargreaves. He’ll be the weak link…no doubt about it.
July 3rd, 2018 at 7:19 am
I like how we’re still blaming scheme for VHIII. While I am no fan of coach Smitty’s “defense”, it has been stated on numerous occasions that DBs are given leeway in certain formations and plays as to how they want to play their man.
VHIII was a REACH at #11. If we get anything from him at this point, it will be gravy!
July 3rd, 2018 at 7:24 am
3-0
July 3rd, 2018 at 8:11 am
Agree……I’m hoping Hargreaves beats out Carlton Davis…..if he does, then he will be good.
July 3rd, 2018 at 8:34 am
the guy is a baller…..as long as the group is average he will stand out and get many picks
July 3rd, 2018 at 8:34 am
@Defense Rules
His name also appeared in your 1st paragraph. – 😉
July 3rd, 2018 at 8:53 am
Joe you need serious help if you truly believe a SHORT, SLOW AND STUPID cb is key to the worst defense in nfl. You can notb salvage a 7th rd talent that was overdrafted by an incompetent organization.
July 3rd, 2018 at 8:53 am
Defense Rules says:
VHIII got exposed in 2017 IMO because: (1) he doesn’t have the height, speed or quickness to cover superstar WRs; (2) other teams know his tendencies & weaknesses; and most important, (3) he doesn’t seem to have the ability to shake off bad plays. Vernon’s better off playing inside at nickel IMO. Carlton Davis, Ryan Smith or a yet-to-be-signed vet will win the outside CB job.
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This is exactly correct. My guess is Davis will be starting opposite Grimes in week 1.
July 3rd, 2018 at 9:02 am
Ed Kerber
Bringing jokes this morning…. Bring Bradford or glennon back… lol does ray jay need janitors
July 3rd, 2018 at 9:18 am
lamarcus
100% agree…..
its simple….stop playing him in smitty’s lousy off coverage…..he’s a man press CB…..
#NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!….#PRESSURESONTHECOACHES!!!!….GO BUCS!!!!
July 3rd, 2018 at 9:43 am
Lol @joe is one of the only people that could think vh3 was good as a rookie despite being rated as the worst corner in all of football that year and targeted the most. But in the same breath rag on Ryan smith. Who is bigger faster and stronger and shows more natural skills then our bust of a first round pick cb. Vh3 1 int in 3 years. Ryan smith has more forced fumbles then vh3. Let that sink in joe.
July 3rd, 2018 at 9:46 am
they did not draft BRATE to give him a big contract
buy thats the way it goes
its a crap shoot
July 3rd, 2018 at 9:53 am
The GM drafted him to play in Smittys D. Bad choice. Another GM unwritten rule: you never want to draft a player in which he played high school football, they end up hanging with their homies way too much…..distractions galore. Also, take a look at all the players that were picked after the second round kicker a couple of year ago. I’m going to go out on a limb and state that we could probably be using one of them as a DB. GM must have pics on the Glazers.
July 3rd, 2018 at 9:54 am
Mike Smith forcing everyone to play off coverage…..he told the biggest lie when he said the corners can play where they feel conftorable….BULLSPIT!!!!!!!!!!!
Lovie Smith 2.0 coach my scheme not coach my players to play what fits then best.
Fir Mike Smith
July 3rd, 2018 at 10:25 am
It is not mike’s smith fault that vhbust is short, slow and stupid who plays like a coward and acts like a clown celebrating over throws and being toasted… just another first round bust by a pathetic organization that prefers feel good stories and choirboys over victories
July 3rd, 2018 at 11:27 am
Our QB is the feel ’em good story of the year.. fo sho
July 3rd, 2018 at 11:39 am
A good pass rush would fix many of Hargraves, and the entire DBfield’s, problems.
July 3rd, 2018 at 11:55 am
He faced Odell Beckham Jr. the year prior and held his own. The problem with Hargreaves is off coverage…which was largely a problem for the Buccs as a whole the last few years (since Lovie, through Mike S.). The Buccs appear to more aggressive both in the dline and in who they acquired in the draft with press guys. This style will only suit Hargreaves’ strength, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see him back outside starting at corner.
July 3rd, 2018 at 12:01 pm
You Gaytor fans make as many excuses for vhbust as joe and the gmc apologists do for the most overrated career loser in bucs history.
July 3rd, 2018 at 12:12 pm
VHIII got exposed in 2017 IMO because: (1) he doesn’t have the height, speed or quickness to cover superstar WRs; (2) other teams know his tendencies & weaknesses; and most important, (3) he doesn’t seem to have the ability to shake off bad plays. Vernon’s better off playing inside at nickel IMO. Carlton Davis, Ryan Smith or a yet-to-be-signed vet will win the outside CB job.
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This is exactly correct. My guess is Davis will be starting opposite Grimes in week 1.
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I disagree, at least with the aspect that he is too slow to cover superstar receivers. Total nonsense. Vernon’s hip fluidity is awesome which is key at staying with receivers, takes no false steps out of the pedal, has great burst and drive close to the ball, and good instincts. His size and short arms hurts, but his leaping ability is really solid for his size (39 inch vert at the combine) and has good timing with those leaps. I’d like to see him get another chance at outside corner and feel he will. He was one of the best, if not thee best cover corners coming out of the draft in 2016.
I do feel he lost a little swag (I still feel he is confident), but I believe that was a by-product of him being young, him being hurt, the team losing and having players out due to injury, and the coaches having him play off receivers because they couldn’t get home with the pass rush.
July 3rd, 2018 at 12:26 pm
Feel the power
Idk about that, Beckham had 90 yards that game and at least 45 came in one play against VH3.
I wish you guys would re-watch games even if it’s just highlights. Here a real easy way.
Google: Bucs 2017 season.
Click on the Wikipedia page.
Under the regular season drop down there are recap all the way to the right-hand side of each row (each game).
They’re usually 8 mins of highlights, this should help you remember what actually happened as you were busy swigging your beers down.
July 3rd, 2018 at 12:43 pm
I think the key to our success is to have no offensive turnovers. Fitz can be a turnover machine at times but so was Jameis for that matter. Those turnovers put our defense in a pickle especially if the turnovers occur on our own side of the 50 yard line. The less time on the field for our defense the better they will perform and stay fresh ..Go Bucs!
July 3rd, 2018 at 12:46 pm
VHIII starting playing off coverage because he was getting burnt constantly.
IF, and I mean IF it was scheme, that’s even more reason why Smitty should’ve been fired.
I just think with no pass-rush, he was getting torched in press/man coverage.
Maybe if he worked more on his skillset instead of his finger-wave he’d be better off!
July 3rd, 2018 at 1:11 pm
Honestly, this isn’t just VHIII. This is all of the secondary. This giving 7yd cushions has got to stop. Opposing teams just dink and dunk on them. Why not, you are playing 7 yds off the receiver, that is easy. Get physical and get back to Buc defense.
July 3rd, 2018 at 1:46 pm
DB55 Says:
July 3rd, 2018 at 12:26 pm
Feel the power
Idk about that, Beckham had 90 yards that game and at least 45 came in one play against VH3.
I wish you guys would re-watch games even if it’s just highlights. Here a real easy way.
Google: Bucs 2017 season.
Click on the Wikipedia page.
Under the regular season drop down there are recap all the way to the right-hand side of each row (each game).
They’re usually 8 mins of highlights, this should help you remember what actually happened as you were busy swigging your beers down.
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I saw the play. You also have to realize the coverage he was in as well. It was cover four…..which is quarters coverage for the two corners and two safeties. Hargreaves was playing well off ODB and ODB put a double move on Justin Evans who was supposed to keep dropping in coverage but tried to jump the route to make a possible interception instead of playing his responsible quarter of the field. In essence, hanging Hargreaves out to dry with no safety help in the part of the field the safety was supposed to be in (the hashmarked side of the field). Hargreaves nearly recovered on the play despite getting sucked in by seeing Evans’ reaction to the ball. However, a) there was no pressure by dline on that play, b) the ball was placed perfectly (over the back-shoulder), c) Hargreaves had to cover too much time and didn’t have the arm length to knock the ball away. Great play by the Giants in breaking down our defense, but I would not pin that play on Hargreaves lack of speed at all.
July 3rd, 2018 at 1:57 pm
btw, cover four is a type of prevent defense (bend but don’t break) that allows the ball to be caught, that basically says we allow the underneath stuff and stop you when we stop you mentality. Not aggressive at all…and should be used sparingly, imo, and yet the Buccs played many times out of cover four.
The Buccs need to get back to an aggressive press coverage style….that wont give qbs and receivers time to dictate things. Either the qb has to make the choice to force a ball into press coverage (possible INT, instead of an easy quick throw into off coverage) OR force the QB to get greedy and try to allow his receivers to dictate the route but allow the passrush to envelop him (leads to more sacks, strip fumbles, tipped ints, errant throws, injuries to the opposing team)
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:00 pm
Press coverage is for situational football. I read comment after comment calling for press without the slightest hint of down and distance, individual match ups,
pressure packages, opponents tendencies, schemes, time on the clock, etcc..Just play more press. No NFL team attempts this in a single game yet alone a season.
So we can eliminate Mike Smith as unique and reject claims that He alone operates in this fashion.
Does press work? Of course it does but it’s effective under certain conditions and situations. It’s not workable 100% of time. Or 75% which leaves a place zone.
Off coverage ???? What exactly is that……making up names for non-existent coverages takes a lot away from anything that follows. I will help you out, man and zone are the two opposing tactics. Not off and press man
If you wrote it, your knowledge is minimal that is indisputable.
If you’re posting this idea (press all the time) or agree with it, I have bad news You don’t know much about defensive schemes, if possible , substantially less about offenses. I mean if you could step back and see how monumentally stupid that sounds you’d probably not embarrass yourself again in a football forum.
Or maybe ask questions until you’re more familiar with the subject.
Football is the most complicated sport there is. The level of knowledge required to be a professional is akin to a MD. Oddly, it’s the sport that the average fan at home actually believes that his/her knowledge is superior than the professional.
I know that NFL fans don’t as a rule feel or act in a like fashion with their doctors.
If they did there would be plenty of seats available on Sunday.
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:06 pm
“akin to a MD”!!!! ROTFLMAOH!!!!!
D1- That was priceless!
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:16 pm
Feelthepewter,
Your description of cov 4 is not complete or if you prefer it’s wrong.
Not that what you said is completely wrong , although some things are, but more that it so elementary that it has little informative information as to use in looking at nfl games.
Press comments are the same thing. Not entirely wrong but inaccurate or too simplistic . More theoretical than what is applicable.
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:24 pm
Pewter,
Your description of cov 4 is so antiquated that it’s rendered useless for today’s game.
Press coverage as you stated is conceptually ok but it’s not reflective of the actual way it’s played and planned to.
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:29 pm
Bucsfan,
If not for the analogy at the end I would have used PHD. Much more accurate but less effective as a literary device.
But heck if you laughed then it is all good
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:32 pm
Pewter,
Your cover 4 explanation is as antiquated as leather helmets.
It’s not applicable in today’s game.
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:58 pm
Feel the power
Agreed, it’s almost like no one knows what they’re doing out there. VH3 might be fast but I still think he’s too short but wtfdik?!
July 3rd, 2018 at 3:04 pm
D1, DB55, Feelthepower- It’s what we supposedly have coaching for, right?! Last year drove me crazy with the lack of adjustments for every reason listed and inferred.
July 3rd, 2018 at 4:21 pm
VH3 with a pass rush not worried
July 3rd, 2018 at 6:02 pm
D1….NOBODY IS SCREAMING FOR PRESS ALL THE TIME!!!!!! WE SIMPLY WANT TO SEE IT MIXED IN!!!!!!!!! Yes there is a time and a place for press and soft coverages. Problem is the Bucs always, always, always play off….WAY OFF!!!!! SO FAR OFF THEY NEED A CELL PHONE TO JAW WITH THE WR BEFORE THE SNAP!!!!! We don’t want press all the time, we are just tried of being soft coverage ALL THE TIME!!!!!! We do it more than any other team in the league by far. You nor anyone else can argue that.
Go ahead and post a link for one game that the outside corners lay a finger on the wrs within the first five yards and play physical at the line. Go ahead I’ll wait!!! Show me when the Bucs EVER play press. Not just last year, the season before that, or the season before that. Show me a link please and at least I will quit calling for more press coverage. YOU CANT, BECAUSE THEY DONT!!!!!
Until then….FIRE MIKE SMITH!!!!!! PLAY SOME FREAKING PRESS!!!!!!!
July 3rd, 2018 at 7:21 pm
Hes a scared football player on the outside but he looks good at times so i do not think the bucs even know what they have yet
July 3rd, 2018 at 7:23 pm
I am not worried about not having JW hes not all that anyway too much rah rah with nothing to show for it
July 3rd, 2018 at 7:24 pm
blocking my post joe
July 3rd, 2018 at 8:36 pm
D1,
Really enjoyed your breakdown of the Defense! Please continue to post especially how you project the new free agents and draft picks fitting into this system.
July 3rd, 2018 at 10:26 pm
Our issue last season was a lack of a pass rush. That should be resolved now so i expect all of our dB’s will be better. Vh3 will be just fine imo but if Davis does well in TC then he will start on the outside along with grimes. This doesn’t mean vh3 is a bust. Grimes will be gone after this season so I believe our starters in 2019 will be Davis and vh3 outside and Stewart in the slot.
July 4th, 2018 at 10:35 am
D1 Says:
July 3rd, 2018 at 2:24 pm
Pewter,
Your description of cov 4 is so antiquated that it’s rendered useless for today’s game.
Press coverage as you stated is conceptually ok but it’s not reflective of the actual way it’s played and planned to.
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Funny, me calling the play cover four is “antiquated” yet Ronde Barber used the same term as well to describe the same play that occurred in 2017.
July 4th, 2018 at 4:30 pm
I’m still waiting for that link D1