“I Will Tolerate You Until I Can Replace You”
February 24th, 2018
Not a believer in America.
Pat Kirwan is taking a page from Raheem Morris.
The former Bucs coach had a few really cool sayings. One was, “Stats are for losers.”
Another, when the immortal Stylez White — who looked like Deacon Jones compared to what the Bucs currently masquerade for an edge rush — was barking at Morris about playing time or too-hard practices or some other kind of whining, Morris shot back in talking to reporters, “I will tolerate you until I can replace you.”
Kirwan is in that frame of mind when it comes to America’s Quarterback, Pro Bowler Jameis Winston.
On his excellent radio show, “Movin’ the Chains,” co-hosted with Jim Miller, heard by intelligent football fans exclusively on SiriusXM NFL Radio, Kirwan is really down on the Bucs and down on Jameis. Now Kirwan, a former Bucs scout, Jets linebackers coach and Jets pro player personnel director, always qualifies his comments on Jameis saying he is not down on him. But his words seem fairly clear that he is very much down on Jameis.
Take this week, when Jameis became a topic of conversation. Miller also is down on Jameis and Miller wondered aloud when Koetter will pull the plug on Jameis. Miller almost sounded as if he thinks Jameis will Pearl Harbor Koetter’s career.
Jim Miller: Can it be corrected, the turnovers, the lack of leadership, the poor decisions by Jameis? You think Dirk Koetter can finally reach him? I watched a lot of that [“Hard Knocks”] and you could just see the frustration on Dirk Koetter. Like, “What do I need to do to get my point across about how important taking care of the football is for Jameis Winston?”
Pat Kirwan: It is a tough question because your question becomes – and it should be asked at 32 different places – “Do we have a quarterback that can get us to a Super Bowl?” The easiest answer is, “I don’t know.” But when I think you know, it is easy to see it, it is easy to feel it. I don’t see [Jameis] right now as a guy that can do that. That doesn’t mean I can dump him because I still have to replace talent-for-talent.
The key phrase here is “right now.” Based on his erratic, injury-plagued 2017 season, hell no Jameis didn’t look like a Super Bowl-winning quarterback, until December when — surprise! — he was healthy.
So the kid has his worst season in his three-year NFL career and Koetter is supposed to dump him on a country road like some a-hole trying to get rid of unwanted kittens?
Joe understands Team Glazer might be trigger-happy when it comes to coaches, but this is ridiculous. A quarterback is setting NFL records and after his first season dealing with so many challenges, perhaps the first time in his life, and the Bucs should be in preparations to replace him? Good, grief.
Yes, Joe is convinced fumbles can be cured. And if your definition of a good quarterback is based solely on lack of fumbles, then go get a fullback from Northern Iowa or Montana State who never fumbles. And good luck trying to score any points in the fourth quarter much less win games. Isn’t that what the Bucs had in Mike Glennon?
February 24th, 2018 at 12:05 am
Wow those guys are way off.
February 24th, 2018 at 12:46 am
The Bucs ended up getting a 7th round comp pick for Glennon leaving I guess, so there’s that.
February 24th, 2018 at 1:18 am
Joe’s love obsession with Kirwan is also curious. Kirwan’s takes are very overrated and sometimes outdated. Absoulety ridiculous to be thinking dumping Jameis right now makes any sense with this team. Next.
February 24th, 2018 at 1:26 am
I like jameis but lets have some objectivity here. He does turn the ball over a lot between fumbles and interceptions, although he goes spurts not throwing picks. Jameis also needs to work on starting games faster. That goes back to his college days. It’s hard to tell, how good he is without a running game. Why harp on the injury thing? It wasn’t much of a factor Fitz won more games than he lost and the games jameis left early or played injured, the team wasn’t prepared for. Jameis Will be a winning QB when we have a running game and a defense worth a $hit, a Gm that can build a team and a good coach.
February 24th, 2018 at 1:30 am
Joe has repeatedly written Jameis needs to cut down on the fumbles.
February 24th, 2018 at 1:39 am
and interceptions, you left this off. 11 int’s isn’t bad but with the fumbles it’s a lot of turn overs.
February 24th, 2018 at 1:41 am
@Rod Munch that 7th rounder was for MacDougald… if glennon would’ve met certain criteria like actually starting the entire season he would’ve been worth a 3rd rounder but leave it to Glennon to let the Bucs down again
February 24th, 2018 at 1:45 am
He is still improving, I think. He had a lot of bad press this year. If we start winning and the uber thing turns out to be nothing. They will jump on the band wagon.
February 24th, 2018 at 1:46 am
The Glazer’s are not going to dump Jameis. Next year they will dump Koetter and higher Bruce Arians. Let’s face it, Koetter does not have it. And, Buckner will be the DC.
February 24th, 2018 at 1:47 am
I’ll save judgement when the guy has a half way respectable run game and a consistent at least middle of the pack defense. Which he hasn’t had. Oh if only we could run an unpredictable offense.
February 24th, 2018 at 1:48 am
Honestly how can you even put an article like this online… I had bucs have fans and reporteds like you guys
February 24th, 2018 at 1:48 am
So mad i cant even type
February 24th, 2018 at 2:08 am
For those that does not forgive typos “hire.”
February 24th, 2018 at 2:09 am
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Kirwan is a LOON … a game-manager QB with no running game behind him and the WORST DEFENSE in the NFL would go 0-16. Jameis is NOT going to stop turning the ball over until the Bucs have a legit top defense as he feels he NEEDS to gunsling and make miracle plays to even give the team a chance to win.
However, had Jameis been on the Jaguars, Eagles or Vikings last year I honestly believe they would have won the SuperBowl.
If Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Peyton Manning (in his final SB year he sucked!!!!), Jeff Hostettler, etc can win rings I have ZERO DOUBT that Jameis could win a ring on the right team.
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February 24th, 2018 at 4:09 am
I’m really starting to lose respect for Joe. Just fumbles?!?! WHAT ABOUT ALL THE DAMN INTS!?!? AND THOSE STUPID ASS DECISIONS?!? All you see is good. There’s just as much bad. There’s hope but there’s cause for concern too. OPEN YOUR EYES PPL!
February 24th, 2018 at 4:44 am
I listen to over half of their shows all year, and I can say, unequivocally that Pat Kirwan HAS NEVER had anything positive to say about Jameis Winston, at least not without a caveat of something negative. In the same segment, they covered the fact that the Bucs defense was 32nd in the NFL, and the run game was poor, and the injuries, and that they could not generate any pass rush. The never mentioned the defense as a problem once. Then Pat Kirwan said Winston has not done enough. The fact is that Jameis improved across the board with one exception, and that was fumbles, where he got worse. But was that just him, or the O-Line and him. It is hard to save every play when you are running for your life as Jameis was much of the season. In the same show, Kirwan like what Mariota did this year, when Mariota was worse than Winston in all categories except the fumbles, fewer yard and TDs even though he played 4 more games, but more Ints than Winston. The Titans had a run-game and a better defense, so they won more games. Winning makes everything seem better.
February 24th, 2018 at 5:14 am
Kirwan is right, if Jameis can’t learn to take care of the football, we’re wasting time. He can throw for all the yards he wants, it doesn’t matter if you end up fumbling before you can put some points on the board. Deflates the whole team I’d imagine.
February 24th, 2018 at 6:10 am
Problem this year was the expectations generated by the head coach and front office. On every platform, Koetter and Licht were proclaiming how talented this roster is, then went out and oversaw a posh country club style training camp. A saying says “Hard work beats talent unless talent works hard” It applies to the 2017 Bucs.
Couple that with no defense, three centers (every faulty center exchange goes down as a QB fumble, even the shotguns that go over the QB’s head or roll to him on the ground), no run game, shoddy guard play, then a right tackle that is injured (Benenoch is solely responsible for three of the fumbles, one he personally knocked out of Winston’s hand).
Coming into this season, Winston was supposed to be asked to manage the game better. The Bucs were going to be tough on defense, Martin was going to run the football behind an “improved Offensive Line” (Sweezy was touted as a FA find, Pamphile the “highest ranked Buc lineman internally” and Marpet was an upgrade at center). Playoffs were virtually guaranteed by Koetter and Licht.
When ALL of that fell apart, Winston was then asked to take over and win games. This exposed him to injury/more hits than necessary. Guys like Kirwan and Miller can bemoan Winston trying to do too much all they want, but if Winston was the prototypical game manager like everyone wanted him to be, the Bucs probably are 4-12 last season. Contrary to popular opinion, Winston wasn’t out there losing games that a game manager would’ve won. The two Fitzpatrick won were due to a bad Jets team led by Josh McKown and Jay Cutler turning the ball over like a crazy man versus the Dolphins.
If any of you guys have the NFL package, go back, turn the volume off, and go watch the Bucs on the condensed game session. You will be amazed at how many elite throws Winston made, how few he truly missed (all QB’s do) and how pathetic the play was around him. Winston is an easy target.
Challenging his leadership… Miller truly hasn’t spent too much time listening to the Buc players. Citing “Hard Knocks” as the source for Koetter being frustrated with Winston a reality TV show edited to accentuate drama. Winston truly saved Koetter’s job with the last 3 games of the season.
The truth is Winston needs to play smarter and he needs to be required to do less. He is still immature and competitive to a fault but this is way better than not caring and just wanting a check. His team needs to step up around him. So many of the games that the Bucs were close in, would’ve been huge losses without Winston but the Bucs can’t be all about him. The defense MUST play better. Cite scoring stats all you want that sugar coats the truth, this was one of the bottom 4 defenses in the league. The offense MUST run the ball better. It was so easy once the field was condensed in the red zone to defend the Bucs because there was zero threat of the running game. The Bucs were one of the bottom 4 rushing teams in the NFL (if Koetter would have stuck with Martin it would’ve been the absolute worst) Monken and Koetter MUST alter the play design to not require Winston to be perfect.
This past season was a collection of bad breaks and organizational failure. Winston was a part of that, just like every player, coach and administrator, but long term Buc fans who remember truly bad QB play should realize, Winston isn’t the anchor holding the team back.
February 24th, 2018 at 6:12 am
Oh.. I forgot to even mention special teams..
February 24th, 2018 at 6:37 am
Im not a Jameis Winston hater. I believe we can win with Jameis. With that being said, at what point do we start taking these conversations seriously?
If his turnover problems continue into year 4 or even into year 5 do we then question if Winston is the guy?
Joe(s), last offseason you wrote about how this team currently has a short window. What if Winston doesnt mature quick enough?
February 24th, 2018 at 6:58 am
@Joe … “hell no Jameis didn’t look like a Super Bowl-winning quarterback, until December when — surprise! — he was healthy.” Joe you’ve used Jameis’ injury as an EXCUSE for his erratic play last season and that’s all it is … an EXCUSE. Professionals either play through their injuries (which many can & do) OR they sit on the bench & let someone else play the position. IF his injury (shoulder?) REALLY hampered his on-field performance, he had no business being out there. That’s why GMs are supposed to sign quality BACKUPS. And yes, Fitz played pretty decently during the times he was out there IMO and should be re-signed quickly.
tnew made some outstanding points about Jameis, but to me what it comes down to is this: Jameis is is highly competitive but young & still developing as a NFL QB. He makes periodic mistakes (like fumbling) that can be VERY costly, but … he’s got an excellent upside IF the Bucs can be patient with him AND get him to play smarter more often so as to minimize mistakes. He’s not Superman nor does he look like a Super Bowl-winning QB right now IMO. Nick Foles didn’t look like Superman either when he led the Eagles to winning last year’s Super Bowl … he played within the T-E-AM concept and it paid off.
February 24th, 2018 at 7:33 am
I believe that if the Bucs can produce an average defense that stays competitive Jameis will be fine. I think his biggest problem is knowing before every game starts that he will be put in a position where he has to single handedly win the game because the other teams always drive down the field and score at will in the fourth quarter. Every team plays coy until the fourth quarter and then hire slant after slant after slant and scores. Jameis knows this so in his mind he needs to try and make sure his team has a multiple score lead. He forces throws and takes risks based on his knowledge of the defense and their tendency to crap the bed every week.
Fix the defense and fix Jameis by default…fire Mike Smith
February 24th, 2018 at 8:07 am
A solid running game will reduce turnovers.
Jameis put too much on himself to make plays because offense
Was one dimensional.
Ignore the trolls…
February 24th, 2018 at 8:21 am
KFromFLA hit it on the head. I promise you that Tom Brady, on this team, would not have finished the year and more than likely would have had enough turnovers for people to question him. You CANNOT win in this league with the worst defense and no running game. Period!
The last month of this past season was the real Jameis. He made throws that few can make. He was the better pick over MM with no question. We just need to put a team around this kid. People forget that while Jameis was great his Freshman year at FSU, his defense was downright nasty. That’s what we need here.
February 24th, 2018 at 8:23 am
Get a f$&#ing RUNNING BACK or 2 plus 2Lineman, and problem solved SMH🤯
February 24th, 2018 at 8:26 am
I heard the assessment on “moving the chains”, they failed to mention to mention the failure of the defense to hold the lead, basically saying the team was light years behind the other divisional teams. Part of this was in response to a caller who wanted to trade Jameis and pick one of the QBs in this draft, really, trade him for an unknown. Then the caller let the cat out of the bag, he really wanted MM from the beginning and of course, Kirwan and Miller fed the caller. Yes Jameis has to not fumble (holds the ball to long), could that be coaching or play calling, has to make better decisions in the heat of the moment, but 5 – 11, total team effort. BTW, Kirwan in his assessment, thought Nick Folks was our FT kicker, they were not aware of Marpet changing to center in their preseason assessment, Sosa much as I listen to their show, I take it with their limited knowledge of what’s going on in TPA
February 24th, 2018 at 8:37 am
Off the top of my head there were at least 3 games, Buffalo, Green Bay and Carolina, where this defense sh*t the bed and gave up late 4th q leads. Again, our problem is not Jameis. He can improve, as most 23 yr old players can, but he is not the problem.
February 24th, 2018 at 8:51 am
He’s going to have more to deal with while he’s suspended for a large chunk of 2018.
February 24th, 2018 at 9:02 am
I’m not Jameis’ biggest fan, but the Offensive line was horrible in pass protection. It seemed as if Jameis was always under pressure and Koetter doesn’t have quick slants in his playbook. The Coaches for the Bucs absolutely suck from top to bottom.
February 24th, 2018 at 9:03 am
Tnew put it perfectly.
February 24th, 2018 at 9:26 am
I don’t get it… I’m just of the mindset the same people who complain about Winston are haters and are mostly the Mike Glennon mob holdovers or something because it doesn’t make sense. His interceptions were down everything else went up except yards because of injury. I can’t call these guys haters because they simply don’t watch the bucs. How can you watch all 32 teams play 16 games in a season and evaluate all it’s talent. Throwing sh!t on the wall hoping it sticks. They read stats they don’t watch games.
Barring some kind of off field issue if this team does not sign him to a second contract they deserve everything they get. There has to be a quarterback say on the roster out playing him otherwise can’t replace him.
February 24th, 2018 at 9:47 am
Cmon Kirwan. We’ve seen Dilfer and Johnson win super bowls. A backup last year. Of course Winston can win a super bowl. Thats a big IF mike smith gets his head out of his ass. No team will ever win a super bowl with the 32nd ranked D. Gota run the ball more and possibly make a stop or two at the end of games. Cant turn every QB into Joe effing Montana. Cmon Pat. Jameis does need to cut down on poking guys in the back and eating W’s. His love for alphabet soup was one strange moment for sure.
February 24th, 2018 at 9:57 am
We make it look like Jameis had a great December to end the year. He finished 1-4 (almost 0-5) with 10 turnovers.
It’s not just fumbles. It’s fumbles and interceptions. He plays us out of so many games that he’s passing for big yards playing catch-up on prevent defense. Let’s be real!!!
This is coming from a FSU guy who was a student when he won us a natty. I love Jameis. But I can’t be blind to the facts any longer.
Get him a run game and stop with the 40 pass attempts. He’s best when his 25 attempts are mostly pushing the ball down the middle of the field (not deep balls smh).
Instead fat boy Licht went out and got him 4 receivers to throw to, 2 TEs, and a pass catching RB at best. Forcing the offense to be a fantasy football team.
February 24th, 2018 at 10:05 am
per nfl qb rating…Winston is NOT even the best pro qb in the state ….I know-go ahead and make your excuses for an average qb.
February 24th, 2018 at 10:11 am
We all saw what happened to the Aints when they found a defense. A team will a sure-fire HOFer was a perennial 7-9 team until Norleans got that defense.
February 24th, 2018 at 10:18 am
You can put Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson on this team and they would have the same result as Jameis. No QB can do it by himself. Worst defense in the NFL, no running game, and no pass rush. Nick foles cant find a starting role in the NFL but he just won a super bowl. Why? because he was on a great team. Build the trenches, get a RB, and find some help on defense and Jameis will kiss the Lombardi trophy one day.
February 24th, 2018 at 10:22 am
Jameis can hone in his consistency, and mature off the field, then we are cooking!
Dumb decisions on and off the field hold #3 back.
February 24th, 2018 at 11:03 am
Ben- a guy that just doesn’t get it. Which if those teams in FL have the worst ranked defense and no running game? I’ll wait…
February 24th, 2018 at 11:07 am
Last 4 games illustrated what Winston and the offense can be. He CAN lead the team to a SB…the IFS involve sustaining that December execution and improving defensive execution.
February 24th, 2018 at 11:45 am
Who fault is it, why the Bucs has no running game and no defense?
February 24th, 2018 at 11:48 am
I guess some folks thinks a good defense and a decent running game will simply fall from the sky. You actually have to build a good defense and decent running game.
February 24th, 2018 at 12:03 pm
We witnessed some possibilities last year. We witnessed Jameis get hurt early and the damage that did to our offense.
We saw what having more lost player games to injury than any other team in the league can do.
Noah…out at the start of the season…the ONLY player we had that showed any promise pass rushing.
Ayers played his usual 12 games sitting for four.
Kwon sits for four…Grimes for three..LVD for three.
Those possibilities all happened and if we’re honest they can all happen again with the same devastating results.
But IF we’re reasonably healthy…if we have that critical availABLITY…do we have talent…ability. Yeah we do.
And so look at this possibility…a team manifests enough character to win a meaningless game…lead by a QB with enough heart and stones to connect on a won or lose gamble at the end of a game against the best team in our division.
That was a possibility last year. It actually happened! It’s obviously still a possibiity and it can happend again in 2018!!!!
February 24th, 2018 at 12:15 pm
Actually Rod Munch we got the pick for Mcdougald
February 24th, 2018 at 12:39 pm
Many, many reasons.
* For one, Joe enjoys intelligent, thoughtful analysis. Doesn’t mean Joe agrees with everything he says.
* Kirwan has done just about everything in the NFL except being a head coach and/or general manager. That’s a lot of knowledge to tap into.
* Kirwan, outside of his radio show, regularly talks with movers and shakers within the NFL whether it be on Park Avenue or with teams. Again, lot of knowledge and wisdom and information he’s tapping into.
* Yeah, Kirwan is biased for coaches — he nearly went unhinged when lazy Lovie Smith was run out the door. Kirwan also is tight with Bruce Almighty and Mike Smith and his best friend in the NFL might be Pete Carroll. So you have to take with a grain of salt what Kirwan says about the Redskins, Seahawks and Bucs defense. Joe doesn’t have an issue with this so long as you know where Kirwan is coming from.
If one can find a more intelligent football show on radio than Kirwan’s show, please tip Joe off.
February 24th, 2018 at 12:53 pm
Is this the same stat that rates Chad Pennington as a better quarterback than Dan Marino?
And Ryan Tannehill as a better quarterback than Brett Favre?
And David Garrard as a better quarterback than Jim Kelly?
And Brian Griese as a better quarterback than Troy Aikman?
And Marc Bulger as a better quarterback than Roger Staubach?
Asking for a friend.
February 24th, 2018 at 3:09 pm
Winston is slowly developing a knack for being a cinderella QB. He comes on late in games and late..in the season! Thats not good enough people. You can talk greatness all you like. But He’s gotta step up his game this season if he’s to be even close to this, America’s QB. He’s only delivered in spots during his NFl career. Yes, he’s a slightly above average to sometimes good QB….at times. His stats? are for losers!! Don’t tell me how rocky the ocean is..Bring in the pirate ship!! WIn GD..ammit!!!
February 24th, 2018 at 3:27 pm
Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, and Russel Wilson are all BETTER than Jameis at this point and would achieve more team success bc of their abilities/leadership/greater amount of maturity and talent at this point in the game.
February 24th, 2018 at 4:16 pm
“Miller wondered aloud when Koetter will pull the plug on Jameis.”
Haha. They will pull the plug on Koetter waaay before Jameis.
February 24th, 2018 at 8:47 pm
I’m all in for Jameis next year!
No silly mistakes on and off the field, and he will be the man!
February 24th, 2018 at 11:07 pm
He’ll get every day of his 5 year contract to prove he’s the man.
Is he is still turning it over like this next year and in year 5 you prob still tag him and give him one last season. If you haven’t made the playoffs by then…he’s garbage and you ditch him.
February 24th, 2018 at 11:31 pm
Jameis Winston – NFL head coach killer
February 25th, 2018 at 12:08 am
Hear that Joe, the people are speaking and the vultures are circling. Ya boy jw aint living up to the hype….YET.
February 25th, 2018 at 7:02 am
Joe,
As much as Jameis has been “good” people forget how bad he is too. I really question his leadership on the field. “Raw raw “ and “talk” only gets you so far. I was on a team in college one year and we had a similar guy who talked a lot. However his play was horrendous and lost teammates respect.
Jameis needs to lead by example and his play.
Turning the ball over has been rather expected from him. He misses open guys whether it’s just not seeing them or over and under throwing them.
Honestly I won’t get into the uber situation. Because I think he has something to hide by not telling the Bucs back in 2016 of March when it happened.
Like someone earlier posted, I don’t come into this season thinking we’re settled in at Qb for the next 8-10 years. To say his first two seasons were great is very overrated. He’s been up and down in each season. I think there is more concern. I agree with Kirwan. I think koetter gets frustrated because it seems he can’t get through to him.