Trading For Eli Apple Crazy Talk
February 6th, 2018
No.
There are options and there are drunken options.
You know what Joe is talking about. It’s like the hot chick at the bar just as you show up before throwing down your first pint of Bud Light. Or the chick at the bar at 1 a.m. after hours of boozing with shots of Jack Daniels.
There is a difference.
Take this Eli Apple character with the Giants, a guy who was the second cornerback drafted in 2016 draft, selected just one slot ahead of where the Bucs chose Vernon Hargreaves.
Apple has turned sour with the Giants and the feeling may be mutual. Well into his second season, Apple has just about proven to be a bust and certainly has proven to be a massive distraction in the Giants locker room.
A new Giants front office and head coach may be looking to part ways with Apple, but that doesn’t mean Bucs AC/DC-loving general manager Jason Licht should be a priest and try to be a miracle worker.
But this is what Gary Davenport of Bleacher Report believes; the Bucs should pick Apple out of the hands of the Giants because the Bucs are so desperate at corner.
That Apple struggled as a rookie wasn’t all that surprising—first-year cornerbacks often do. But the bottom fell out in 2017. Apple was regularly roasted in coverage. He wound up playing in just 11 games—not because he was hurt, but because his clashes with coaches and teammates got so bad he was a healthy scratch.
By the last week of the regular season, Apple had been suspended from the team and publicly called a “cancer” by Giants safety Landon Collins. Collins later walked back those remarks, but calling Apple’s future in the Big Apple cloudy is putting it mildly.
This is just crazy talk. First, in the two years under Bucs defensive coordinator Mike Smith, please cite a young corner this defensive staff has developed. If anything, unless a guy’s name is “Brent Grimes,” one could argue every corner the Bucs have had the past two years with the exception of (free agent) Robert McClain and Grimes has regressed.
So what on earth would possess someone to believe this defensive coaching staff could coach up this Apple, never mind the guy seems to be a mental patient by all appearances?
This is why Joe advocates Licht to pull off a deal with Denver to acquire Aqib Talib. Yeah, Talib is crazy, too. At least he has demonstrated he can play in this league. And, oh yeah, since he left the Bucs, Talib has proven to be a winner.
There is an option, and then there is a drunken option.
February 6th, 2018 at 5:12 am
The DL is more important than the defensive backfield. Address and the DL and then we can talk DBs. Jiminy CHRISTMAS! 🎄
February 6th, 2018 at 5:25 am
The young man probably just need a change of scenery he’s from Jersey and that might be a little added pressure plus a over protecting parent dose not help either..
February 6th, 2018 at 5:29 am
The draft is filled with quality secondary players that can be taken in the third round. If Apple was a throw-in as a part of a DJax to the Giants for a DE deal, then great. Otherwise, the draft and FA is a better way to go for CB help this year. Would love to see Bucs address DE and RB in FA or a trade before the draft. If they do, they can trade down multiple times and address CB, OL, DL and S for years by taking multiple players at those positions. Outside of Barkley and Michel, the RB class looks good not great (Guice is a wild card because of his history of injuries). Outside of Chubb, Davenport and possibly Hand, the DE class looks okay; neither good or great. Other than center, this is a deep draft for OL with lots of mid-round prospects that have starter potential. Same with CBand DL. If picked Day two or early on Day three, the safeties are good as well.
February 6th, 2018 at 5:54 am
Most defensive backs don’t look good when they have a sorry d-line
Oh wait we have one of those…. hard to see just what you have
In the back when the front sucks nuts
February 6th, 2018 at 5:55 am
Paying $12M next year for a down-stating. 32 year old Talib PLUS giving up valuable draft picks for the ‘privilege’ of overpaying him??
Um – Joe – That IS the “drunken” option.
February 6th, 2018 at 5:57 am
Just what this team needs. Another struggling CB from the 2016 draft.. .
February 6th, 2018 at 6:00 am
Tampa Bay Buccaneers | Pass Defense Rankings
Yards: 4169 | Ranks 32nd ← Dead Freakin’ Last
Cornerbacks | Snap Count: 2017
• #24 Brent Grimes (34yrs) 5-10,185 | Snaps: 844
• #36 Robert McClain (29yrs) 5-9,195 | Snaps: 690
• #29 Ryan Smith (24yrs) 5-11,189 | Snaps: 598
• #28 Vernon Hargreaves(22yrs) 5-10,204 | Snaps: 502
• #35 Javien Elliott (24yrs) 5-11,176 | Snaps: 130
Safeties | Snap Count: 2017
• #23 Chris Conte (28yrs) 6-2,203 | Snaps: 774
• #21 Justin Evans (22yrs) 6-0,199 | Snaps: 715
• #43 T.J. Ward (31yrs) 5-10,200 | Snaps: 405
• #37 Keith Tandy (28yrs) 5-10,205 | Snaps: 226
February 6th, 2018 at 6:02 am
Couldn’t hurt to bring in CB/S – David Amerson for a tryout.
February 6th, 2018 at 6:18 am
Eli Apple stinks!!! I am an Ohio State fan and almost EVERYTIME there was a big play made down field by the opposing team, it was Apple covering. It was not uncommon to hear yelled from my house every Saturday “Freakin Apple Again”! He stinks… stay far, far away from him.
February 6th, 2018 at 6:42 am
No thanks…..Apple makes Hargreaves look like a good pick.
Lets throw the bank at Grimes for a two-year deal….he will stay.
I believe Hargreaves will develop.
Bring in one free agent CB…..top player, high dollar…..
I’m one who believes that the effort being made by Ryan Smith will eventually pay off…..
February 6th, 2018 at 7:09 am
trading any picks is crazy talk for this team..severe depth issues
February 6th, 2018 at 7:46 am
hahaha…then we could have 2 1st round busts at corner
February 6th, 2018 at 7:47 am
Sounds about as wise as trading up for a kicker
February 6th, 2018 at 7:55 am
So, we want to bring in a proven head-case that can’t play?! Grrrrrrreat!
February 6th, 2018 at 8:17 am
Joe please enough of this crazy Talib love. Von Miller, and the Denver pass rush makes Talib look good, not the other way around. Find a way to pressure the Q.B., and average corners will look good. Did you watch the super bowl? Covering receivers is nearly impossible in todays NFL without a pass rush!
February 6th, 2018 at 8:55 am
Joe, Ryan Smith improved this year. That was development. At the corner position (even though he is listed simply as a DB).
So far as Aqib Talib, here’s the problem I have with your suggestion: the number one problem with this team in 2017 was injuries. Aqib Talib has had injuries 11 years in a row…that’s his entire career. While true, those injuries have not caused him to miss more than one game per year lately, they are still there.
And at 31, it will only get worse.
That said, I’m not saying we should not acquire him. I’m saying we should not trade for him. Even if we could get him for a 7th just to get him off the Bronco’s books, he is just the type of player who would say we didn’t value him enough to trade a better pick and throw a tantrum.
IF he really is a salary issue, then the Broncos will release him anyway. Why offer in trade what we could get without losing picks? And if he signs a new deal there? Then he never wanted to leave in the first place.
February 6th, 2018 at 8:56 am
Hodad Says
“Joe please enough of this crazy Talib love. Von Miller, and the Denver pass rush makes Talib look good…”
I agree that pass rush is the most important thing on defense, but Talib is a very good CB. Always was.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:00 am
I would take Eli Apple cheap regardless of the staff’s capability. This is the bucs routine problem we always miss the boat on value trades like this… Eli Apple is going to go for a late round pick, this sounds like low-risk high reward to me…
February 6th, 2018 at 9:18 am
Agree, don’t need Apple. On a side note and I am sure I’ll regret this, I was thinking about all the hate and condemnation of our Defense last year and how Smith, Koetter, and Licht will screw it up next year. Then everyone has a sure-fire way to fix it and players to obtain in the offseason to get the job done. We lost 3 games by less than 6 points and 4 games by less than 3 pts. Made me wonder just how terrible this team really is and how screwed we are in 2018. I finished my coffee and I’m going to enjoy my day.
February 6th, 2018 at 9:47 am
I would offer a 7th round pick for him if the giants are desperate to get rid of him….at the very least he’s depth with 1st round pedigree…..
@luv….I agree….I would bring in david amerson as well…..he had a great year last year but was part of a defense and team that completely regressed much like us…..
while I do agree with joe about the defensives staffs lack of ability to develop cb’s and de’s getting players like eli apple, david amerson, Malcolm butler, ej gaines would eliminate the “lack of talent” excuse….all those players are talented….that would give smitty the “jimmy and joes” he needs to be successful…..
but as someone pointed out above, its the dline that needs serious help…..we need 2 DE’s and a DT….
#NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!!….GO BUCS!!!!!
February 6th, 2018 at 10:27 am
All the coaches were retained. No improvements to what we have was needed. So, in the eyes of Licht and the owners, there should be absolutely no reason to suspect the coaches can’t develop a young cornerback. Otherwise, wouldn’t you have addressed that basic coaching deficiency? What good is a coaching staff that can’t develop young players. I vaguely remember a super Bowl winning head coach fired for not developing young players. All’s good here. Nothing to see. Move along. Hurry up and get here 2019.
February 6th, 2018 at 10:32 am
Trading and signing a bunch of guys heading into their mid-thirties (Talib /Bennett) is a recipe for disaster. The Bucs already showed how well they acclimate veterans into their “system” with the T.J. Ward saga.
If the Bucs were the Patriots – then sure – plug and play guys every year into the tried and tested and proven system. That is not the case here.
February 6th, 2018 at 10:51 am
Bucs had worst pass defense in NFL. And defensive staff cannot develop young players.
“Disaster” has arrived.
February 6th, 2018 at 11:03 am
I agree, do not trade a pick away.
However, when he is cut, you bring him in to a team friendly contract and let him try to fix his career. He is very young like VH. If he doesn’t improve cut him.
February 6th, 2018 at 11:45 am
You act like Mike Smith has been here 3-5 years. I’d say he did a bad job last year in general – primarily in scheming / adjusting in-game but this idea of giving up on developing players because it’s basically impossible for this staff is quite the hyperbolic freak out of a reaction.
What DE was supposed to develop? Noah Spence right? Dude looked like a beast this year before the injury. Pretty sure he was developing just fine.
The only other young DE with any talent stock is Will Gholston I guess but at this point he is a known commodity – a run stuffing DE. He still does that well. He can’t pressure the QB but he never has shown that regardless of coaching staff.
That’s it for DEs. Everyone else is a random guy off the street or Robert Ayers who is what he is at this point. F*ck Mike Smith for not turning Will Clarke into a 10 sack monster i guess lol
Other positions on defense that we supposedly sucked at developing were CBs/Ss: VHIII/Ryan Smith/Justin Evans
VHIII is the biggest indictment – but even he was injured early this year (Vikings game – week 2). I may be wrong but I’d think that had a factor on his playing ability and confidence. He was showing developmental signs as a rookie and looked solid in preseason (think Andy Dalton pick).
THe other 2 players – Smith & Evans – were rookies. Both showed flashes and growing pains – typical of a rookie season. Yeah Smith was a 2nd year player but this was his rookie year at CB and first year playing meaningful defensive snaps.
So again – wtf development were you expecting? Ryan Smith to be a lockdown CB as a 2nd year 4th round pick playing the position for the first time? Was Justin Evans supposed to immediately make a probowl at S as a 2nd rounder – because that’s normal?
I guess i can buy the VHIII argument – I’d concede they’ve done bad with him. But that’s one player – it’s not like we have 4-5 high draft picks from the last 2 years that are all regressing. Literally can just count 1 that supports the argument of not developing players at all.
And that’s not even mentioning that these secondary players are supposed to develop while the old a4ss ineffective D-line regresses into one of the worst pass rushing units in the league – that’s not a good way to help your young players out.
February 6th, 2018 at 12:21 pm
@ LC
I second that
February 6th, 2018 at 12:28 pm
LC
well we’re entering year 3 with smitty and dirk running the show…..
luckily, we’ll be able to cann all the excuses or “reasons” why we were 5-11….this staff only has 2018…..that’s it…..
they cant blame:
lack of talent, HK, time to gel, time to develop, injuries, Irma, SOS, oline, dline any longer…..
in 2018, this staff must show that the coaches and players have the ability to fight thru adversity and be successful at doing it…..
they must show they can adjust….
they must show they can be/get creative…..
they must come out with a sense of urgency….
they must come out prepared and focused…..
NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!!….GO BUCS!!!!
February 6th, 2018 at 12:29 pm
Hey Joe if this guy is the cancerous whackaloon everyone says he is, I expect Licht’s dumb ass to go full throttle to try to get him. No thank you, I much rather have the whackaloon that is Talib. At least with him we know what were getting in his level of craziness and he CAN play. We’ve already seem him ball here when we had him. lol All that being said, FIX THE DAMN TRENCHES!!!!!!! It always starts and ends with the trenches.
February 6th, 2018 at 12:30 pm
Key word “looked.” Doug Martin “looked” fresh as well.
Thought it was very, very telling when Noah Spence said that after working out with Simeon Rice, he heard things from Rice that he never, ever heard of before.
Hhhmmm?
February 6th, 2018 at 12:34 pm
Lord Cornelius:
I have looked everywhere and can’t find any info on Noah Smiths injury. At one point they said it could be career ending. Have you heard anything?
February 6th, 2018 at 12:54 pm
Get the band back together Talib,Bennett, and Blount.
February 6th, 2018 at 1:09 pm
Lotta sense being thrown around in that post LC.
Except for conceding that the coaching staff has “done bad” with Hargreaves’ development.
IMO – VH3’s lack of development, regression, sophomore slump – whatever you want to call it – is on one person and one person only. Vernon Hargreaves.
With Hargreaves and Apple both struggling – its looking like the “cream” of the 2016 CB crop is turning sour way before its expiration date. Too bad we can’t take Vernon back to the draft store and ask for a fresh replacement…
LOL – I kid. Sorta
Rankins, Tunsil and Karl Joseph were selected immediately after Hargreaves. They all played positions of relative “need” for this team at the time. But Licht, after smartly trading down to pick up an extra 4th – abruptly started channeling his inner Mark Dominik and forgot momentarily that drafting BPA is more important (and much safer) than drafting for desperate “need” – especially when it comes to 1st rd picks.
Hope that lesson was not forgotten when draft day comes around this year. Chubb is the only DE worthy of a top 15 grade this year. A blue chip player in OG (Nelson) or CB (Minkah) is likely to be available at #7 – and we better take whichever one falls to us or be sorry later that we didn’t. (unless a trade down option presents itself which is the best case scenario if the trade value is appropriate).
February 6th, 2018 at 1:13 pm
“Joe Says:
February 6th, 2018 at 12:30 pm
Dude looked like a beast this year before the injury.
Key word “looked.” Doug Martin “looked” fresh as well.
Thought it was very, very telling when Noah Spence said that after working out with Simeon Rice, he heard things from Rice that he never, ever heard of before.
Hhhmmm?”
I duno about Martin looking like anything fresh. He looked pretty sh1tty to me still so I’d just disagree lol.
The Simeon Rice comment – i get it – but I’d expect someone to learn something new any time they work with a different mind who’s played the game. Unless we hear that it’s a very basic technique that we aren’t coaching up – then I’m not sure what to make of that or if it means anything at all.
Either way I’m with 813 – no excuses for next season. They’ve been here long enough and have the resources to add the guys they think they need to be succesfull on both sides of the ball. FA is going to be huge – moreso than the draft – not because they can’t develop talent – but because we barely have any highly invested defensive players to develop regardless/ and can’t count on rookies to ball out immediately. Still need to go defense heavy in the draft because if this staff fails we need to at least be building something for the next staff.
February 6th, 2018 at 1:27 pm
They can’t coach him up because he is already a punk-beach bust Joe. They’ve developed some real good looking young players with very high ceilings IMO: Noah, Beckwith, Evans, O.J. more and more. But I could be wrong. Maybe it’s just these young guys doing a really good job at playing football in this BS coaching staff.
February 6th, 2018 at 1:54 pm
@Pickgrin
Would have loved to have taken Rankins in that draft. That was my #1 wish but at the time I was ok with VHIII as well – as he was a consensus top pure CB in that draft after Ramsey. It’s not like he was a reach according to anyone other than the ppl here who hated on his height; even though he had like 4-6″ on the Vert that Grimes had in his combine and is thicker.
I’m with you on this draft as well. Chubb is the dream but I’d be happy with Nelson or Minkah or trading back if the value is right and taking a guy like Vea or something. I just pray we can add a lot of talent in FA regardless because that’s the key imo
February 6th, 2018 at 1:56 pm
I’m thinking we’ll either get Nelson or Fitzpatrick if we stay at seven. I think there’s about a 1% chance either of those guys become busts and not become pro bowlers. Those dudes are ready for the NFL and might not even need any development so this pleases me with the thought of having one of them.
February 6th, 2018 at 2:05 pm
LC….Solid post for sure.
@Pickgrin…Just need a little clarification. Like you I do not want to trade ANYTHING for Talib or any other player currently being mentioned. Absolutely no draft picks…if the trade involved someone like Swaggy or Ayers I might consider it.
So are you OK with Talib as long as we don’t have to give up anything but money in return? We have so much cap space and a Talib deal would probably be pretty short so as to not mortgage the future when we have to re-sign our stars.
February 6th, 2018 at 2:09 pm
@Joe
“Thought it was very, very telling when Noah Spence said that after working out with Simeon Rice, he heard things from Rice that he never, ever heard of before.”
Certainly take your point but I’m not sure it’s an awful indictment of our coaches because Sim learned a lot of tricks from playing the position.
Same with that Aaron Donald thread you posted about Donald studying GMC. Don’t believe that is an indictment of Ram D line coaches.
February 6th, 2018 at 2:11 pm
LC – this year’s FA pickings are kinda slim. Especially at DE which is our biggest need.
We are best off concentrating on re-signing Grimes and McDonald (and probably Tandy as well) as 1st priority instead of looking to FA for their replacements. Maybe we can find an upgrade at Guard and dump the Sweezy experiment or perhaps a decent CB can be signed – but there won’t be many FA “saviors” out there this year (at any price) who can fill the Defensive holes we have.
Good drafting is the only way forward. This year at least…
With our 7 picks (1,2,3,4,5,6,6) I’d like to see 1 RB and 1 CB selected and the rest of the picks devoted to DL and OL (unless a good Safety value presents itself in which case go with that).
February 6th, 2018 at 2:14 pm
@Lord C
Im assuming Joe was refering to the Pats game. That was Martin’s first game back off the suspension and he looked good that game. Unfortunately only that game lol
February 6th, 2018 at 2:18 pm
SPBF – yes I would be fine with Talib coming back. IF he’s cut by Denver, IF he’s come back to Tampa Bay because he really wants to play here and IF we can get him signed in the $8-9M per year range with no more than the 1st year guaranteed.
Under those reasonable circumstances – sure – he’s almost certainly got at least something left in the tank at 32 coming into this year. And we could certainly use his height at the CB position vs some of these huge receivers in our division.
February 6th, 2018 at 2:18 pm
And some of you guys are crazy. You wouldnt give up a 5th round pick for Talib? Sure he is getting older but cmon. He is an instant upgrade over Ryan Smith.
What else are you expecting to get with a 5th round pick? A solid special teams player? Keep in mind our 5th round pick from this past draft never even made the team.
February 6th, 2018 at 2:48 pm
@Pickgrin
I think our best chance of FA impacting the D-line is at DT in Star Lotulele or Sheldon Richardson – both guys can rush the passer / are quick off the line.
If we could land one of those guys and sign like 2 average DEs / the best we can get – then that’d probably help a lot before we even get to the draft.
My worry with the draft is D-lineman do not typically play well right away and take a couple years to hit their stride. We need to draft it regardless; but I’d think in FA we could upgrade CB/DT/DE and maybe S; and then go out and draft all those positions as well. We need to use every available resource to field the most competitive team possible while still keeping an eye to the future.
February 6th, 2018 at 3:17 pm
Trade for Talib = Yes
Trade for Apple = No
Possibly take a chance on the guy as a FA with no guarantees in his contract? Maybe.
February 6th, 2018 at 7:32 pm
Call me crazy, but I think we were gonna draft Apple instead of Hargreaves. We moved back 2 spots and the Hiants traded up before us to pick Apple. If they thought we wanted Hargreaves, whyd they move up? If Harhreaves was better…Why didn’t NY draft him instead of Apple????
February 6th, 2018 at 9:12 pm
Pick up this kid but no draft piks to be exchanged, we need a cornerbacks coach that can perform miracles–thats what we need to look for–vh3, ryan smith, eli apple, jude adjei barima–what a sorry bunch of dudes–need to get coached up the hard way cause the Bucs usual soft way aint doing it
February 6th, 2018 at 9:14 pm
yes get Talib–for the fun factor alone!
February 6th, 2018 at 10:56 pm
Hell no. Get CB Mike Hughes in the second.
February 7th, 2018 at 12:09 am
Apple for a CONDITIONAL 7th rounder in 2019? Sure.
But I wouldn’t give up a 2018 pick for him … he does have 1st round talent but the kid seems like a nutbar
February 7th, 2018 at 12:25 am
Nick you are assuming that someone with a brain was running the Giants front office when they snagged Appple which is unlikely to be true. Believe it or not but teams other than the Bucs make very boneheaded mistakes, one of the very many reasons the Giants were 3-13 last season despite having some high expectations much like our Buccos had last summer… Apple makes VH3 look almost serviceable.
February 7th, 2018 at 2:27 am
With the current CB group I would not hesitate to get Eli Apple (6-1 201), even if it took a fourth round draft pick. Tell me who we could draft in the fourth round who could compete with Apple? Apple’s height, speed (4.40) natural ability, quick footwork, competivness and work ethic are all factors in making him the second CB selected in the 2016 draft. If Apple became a Buc I would still re-sign Brent Grimes to solidify the CB group with Grimes, Apple and Hargreaves. If the deal was out there the Bucs would be insane not to go for it. I doubt the Giants do so solely because he is still under his rookie contract.