Bucs Offensive Line Graded Average
February 1st, 2018
OK.
Periodically, Joe will be asked on Twitter to comment on drafting some guard at No. 7 overall.
Joe’s answer is usually, “It’s not popular, but Joe’s not in the camp that believes the offensive line is horrible.”
You will likely notice that Joe rarely writes about a bad Bucs offensive line — because Joe doesn’t believe the offensive line is bad. Yes, it’s unpopular, but Joe never has and never will write and beat the drum over something he doesn’t believe.
Now comes the respected football thinktank Football Outsiders to weigh in. They have broken down all NFL offensive lines and have determined the Bucs have the No. 16 offensive line in the NFL.
Yes, that would be right at average.
Joe has always maintained that it wasn’t the guys who were doing the blocking that was the problem, it was the guy getting the football that was a problem — Doug Martin. With two starters down on the offensive line, the Bucs traveled to Green Bay and Peyton Barber ran for over 100 yards. That sealed it for Joe.
Is the offensive line the 1976 Oakland Raiders? Heck no. It is the total sieve that it was in Lovie Smith’s first year when it was a complete circus highlighted by window-shutter-flapping-in-the-breeze Anthony Collins, snap-over-the-head-of-the-quarterback Garrett Gilkey and dreads-flopping-in-the-air after getting freight-trained by a bull rush Josh Allen? Certainly not.
Alas, Joe understands there are Bucs fans who, unless there are five pancake blocks on each snap and unless a running back has a seven-yard wide hole to run through, will never, ever be satisfied with the offensive line.
Joe will never forget the loud wails in the night coming from Bucs fans to run Donald Penn out of town.
Hat tip: D-Rome.
February 1st, 2018 at 3:22 pm
I’ll have to agree with that assessment
February 1st, 2018 at 3:36 pm
Maybe so, but if Nelson is the best guard prospect to come out in years you take him.
February 1st, 2018 at 3:40 pm
Wow. The level of denial is inconceivable. I guess we’ll be blaming Martin for Jameis’ overthrows next?!
February 1st, 2018 at 3:41 pm
I have to disagree.
Looking a bit more into those numbers I interpret it differently. 5 of the top 10, and 7 of the top 15 offensive lines were in the playoffs this year (2 of them being the Saints, Falcons).
Especially since 2 of those teams are in our division, we are far behind the curve.
Following that up with the season Jameis had this year with fumbles/INTs, and the amount of hits he took back in ’16.. It needs to be addressed.
February 1st, 2018 at 3:41 pm
Drafting a guard in the first round is a new way of trying to get fired when you’ve got the worst defensive line in the league that’s dying for help.
February 1st, 2018 at 3:44 pm
16th? 16th means sometimes you are good and some time you are bad. Ok great….our line is 50/50. The unfortunate part is because the line performs in a 50/50 manner, we see the hiccups at the worst time causing 90% of the fan base to go nuts. Make no mistake about it, the bucs could use an upgrade on this line unless you are cool with 16th or 50/50.
February 1st, 2018 at 3:50 pm
After watching tape of Nelson Id love if we took him at 7. Having said that Id be surprised if its not defense in the first 4 rounds, as of now. Free agency might change things. Of course Id hope for a DE but cant reach in the first round. Personally I think you take best player available on the D or O line this year. This team needs to toughen up.
February 1st, 2018 at 3:55 pm
If Bradley Chubb ain’t there at 7 and Nelson falls to there. You take him. None of the other “edge” rushers are a shoo in. Nelson is a blue chip, 10 year starter with pro Bowl potential. Is “average” now the acceptable level for a Bucs unit? Take Nelson, move Marpet back to G, get a FA Center. Take a pass rusher in Rnd 2, most of the rest of this year’s DE class are rnd 2 talent. I wouldn’t gamble a 7 on any of them except Chubb.
February 1st, 2018 at 4:00 pm
I see you d-rome
I didn’t think they were bad either…and I don’t think the marpet to center experiment was as bad as people think….he’ll be an pro bowl center in 2018….
barber ran well behind that same line and also did so after marpet and Dotson went out….dirk sticking with martin is just another example of his incompetence……
glad we can cann the no talent on the oline excuse!!!!!
#NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!!….GO BUCS!!!!
February 1st, 2018 at 4:08 pm
Pamphile and Sweezy were god awful. I don’t see how you can say we don’t need a guard with a straight face.
February 1st, 2018 at 4:09 pm
i’ll take the oline being ranked 16th with a converted G playing C and a G with a bad back….our oline had injuries and still finished in the middle of the pack….oline coach needs a raise….
folks were happy with the defense finishing 22nd in points allowed….blaming injuries for their poor performance…..you have fans and media folks saying smitty did a great job in 2017…..
oline coach needs a raise!!!!!
#NOEXCUSESIN2018!!!!!….GO BUCS!!!!
February 1st, 2018 at 4:10 pm
Sign Bennett & Talib
1st round Vea
2nd Best DE, RB or Corner available
3rd repeat 2nd round strategy
4th repeat 2nd round strategy
5th O-line
6th O-line
7th O-line
February 1st, 2018 at 4:11 pm
Yep been agree-ing with this for a while. Some people act as if we need 3 new O-line starters in the offseason but that shouldn’t be a priority compared to the D-line and defense in general.
That said – I’d be fine with upgrading via FA and/or spending 1-2 picks on the O-line in this draft. Average = room to get better for sure.
February 1st, 2018 at 4:16 pm
Anyone who’s ever studied statistics knows that you can readily manipulate them to come up with the answer that pleases you. Example: On a scale of 1-5 (with 5 being the best), say the 2 Tackles each get a 3, the 2 Guards each get a 4, and the Center gets a 1. So your ‘average’ is 3 (15 divided by 5). Minor problem? Your friggin’ Center sucks in that example and your QB will get constantly steamrolled. Not saying that’s the Bucs’ OLine scores by any means; just saying that ‘average’ can earn you a 5-11 record just as quickly as you might end up with a 11-5 record.
Football is a T-E-A-M sport as we all know, and even just 1 player sucking on the line represents a major weakness. DC’s look for ANY weakness and are masters at exploiting them. Bucs have 3 OLinemen who are quite good actually IMO (Marpet, Dotson & Donovan Smith), and another (Hawley) who is certainly serviceable. We do need a LG (assuming Marpet is moved back to RG) this year, and probably a Center & RT in the next 2-3 years. Plus better depth & versatility. Those positions can be fixed in free agency … focus the draft on D-E-F-E-N-S-E.
February 1st, 2018 at 4:22 pm
I agree if chubb aint thereat 7 we need to take nelson. ya we need make the opposing qb eat dirt for 60 minutes every sunday especially every qb in our division i wish we could give some snzu beans to alstott,brooks and sapp cuz I’m tired of not touching the qbthey throw at will at us even greg spires would be nice to have he got more pressure than anybody that we have
February 1st, 2018 at 4:42 pm
Drafting Nelson should automatically make the running game better. Take him and go defense the rest of the draft. Should be able to get a decent RB in free agency. Hopefully we can get some upgrades on the D-line in free agency and with other picks.
February 1st, 2018 at 4:46 pm
The offense line was ranked 16th in pass-protection and 16th in run-blocking. They would have been ranked higher in pass-protection if the playcalling was for screens, slants etc.
Instead of downfield throws
It take time for those plays to develop
The QB has to hold the ball longer
February 1st, 2018 at 4:47 pm
If Licht drafted Round one – DE Round two – DE and Round three – DT
I would be happy with that.
Does anyone know what rank the Bucs Defensive line came in at? JOE?
#FIXTHETRENCHES #FINDTHEQB #HITTHEQB
February 1st, 2018 at 4:51 pm
If Chubb is gone AND Barkley is gone AND Nelson is there at #7, you take the potential generational guard, no matter how un-sexy it seems now.
February 1st, 2018 at 5:04 pm
Joe what I don’t get is these guys WANT Tampa to draft a Guard in April because our offense is subpar….but they don’t remember Jameis is #2 against the rush…. which means he’s succeedes when the oline doesn’t hold up but when it does he’s good also…my point…DONT FIX IT IF IT AINT BROKE!!!
February 1st, 2018 at 5:05 pm
The Bucs defense line was ranked 32nd in passing defense.
They are ranked 20th in rushing defense.
February 1st, 2018 at 5:09 pm
Defense, great analysis. I happen to agree with your conclusion as well. Keep posting. We need more like that and less “we suck” posts.
February 1st, 2018 at 5:10 pm
Regarding taking Nelson. I’ve been pro drafting him but….
Ok… first of all. Bennett will not be released he will needed to be traded for.
If Chubb is at 7, run the card up. Have the card ready just in case something happens at the 6 pick and the Jets mess up on the clock waiting for a great trade.
I don’t think Chubb will be there.
Neither of the Bucs left guards is under contract next season. Smith nor Pamphile. Sweezy did not have a great season and could be a cut based on his contract/dead money, unlike Bennett.
Free Agents to sign. Autrey (nice catch Joe), McKinnon (RB, Vikings), Norwell (G, Panthers), resign McDonald. If Pamphile is cheap, resign him for depth.
Nelson maybe the next Logan Mankins,but he isn’t my pick. This draft has 4 premium interior lineman with Nelson, Price, Wynn and Hernandez. The value should be with that second round pick at guard.
So. Back to the first pick. My new hope is.. Minkah Fitzpatrick I was hesitant on him because he played slot in college but when you watch tape, Saban was just wanting him closer to the football. He looks like the next Jalen Ramsey type. Both 6’1″, over 200 pounds. Minkah is claimed to run a 4.39 for nfl execs over the summer. We will see at the combine but if he has anywhere near this top end speed, coupled with how he moves at his size, this would be one corner solved for a few seasons.
Even tho I mentioned a slipping Guard in the second, I would also keep an eye out for Sony Michel or Guice even tho I propose signing Jerick Mckinnon. But my hope is that a promising DE prospect slips. Someone like Sam Hubbard, who looks the part but put up some uninspiring video from time to time this season. Maybe just lost in the OSU line but he has a nice motor and decent skills. Probably gets drafted late in the first and I have no problems packaging the second and next years 4th to go get him.
For the third round, you go G, DT (although, even with his senior Bowl, Justin Jones most likely lasts to the third depending on combine) or a project edge guy.
Assuming the Guard position hasn’t been addressed, think about a C/G here at the top of the 4th. My guess is Frank Ragnow will still be on the board. Will be a bargain here.
From then on, straight up best CB, S, G, DE or RB prospect that is on the board and highest rated on the draft board.
February 1st, 2018 at 5:12 pm
There is a key takeaway from the article I’d like to point out:
The Bucs were ranked 31st in open field yards yet ranked 16th with adjusted line yards. What that means, much to the chagrin of the Muscle Shamster Mob, is that Doug Martin really *was* the problem with the running game and it wasn’t the offensive line.
February 1st, 2018 at 5:20 pm
Average means you can get better. We had an average(debatable) passrush last year, then we added nothing to it……And looked what happened.
This f***ing team needs to get their s**t together.
Dirk says to us he wants a badass football team…..Dude why didn’t you tell your GM that. I’m calling BS on Dirk for his whole badass slogan. I’m calling BS because he had a little money to play with last year and got a soft athlete(talented yes) and got a stupid WR who brought no physicality to this team. Yes, Licht has to take the blame but I’m calling Dirk out on that wasted signing of DJax. I don’t know, but I’m sure Dirk was in Jason’s ear on that one.
Dirk don’t you f***ing tell me you want a badass team and then go get a pile of soft ass players to play next to your already soft ass team. If you want a badass team then you go make it happen. Otherwise, don’t hype me up with your BS and save your damn o breathe for your softass player who need to hear it!
February 1st, 2018 at 5:26 pm
The run blocking stats make sense, but adjusted sack rate is all Football Outsiders has for pass blocking. Come on guys.
February 1st, 2018 at 5:43 pm
Welcome to BUCLAND. Step right up folks and take your chance at..Spinnin and Denial. You’ll win at either one when it comes to our Bucs!
February 1st, 2018 at 5:59 pm
Like some other commenters, I’m not sure when “average” became good enough to make the playoffs. Look at the teams with better lines: Patriots, Steelers, Rams, Saints, Falcons, Jaguars… most of them are significantly better. Settling for “average” isn’t going to get us over the playoff hump. If our defense was really good, then sure. But this Bucs team is going to need to rely heavily on scoring points next year for any chance of a winning record. A new running back will help a lot, but so will a bolstered offensive line. Let’s not forget, Jameis had a bum shoulder because of poor pass protection. So it’s not just to help score points, it’s to keep the franchise healthy.
February 1st, 2018 at 6:51 pm
Key word this offseason should be COMPETITION at every position. Draft best interior OL in round 3. Take best defensive player in 1st Round (unless Barkley is miraculously there) & best RB available in round 2 (don’t wait until top 5 RB’s are gone: Barkley, Guice, Michel, Jones & Penny). I hope Alex Kappa is still there in 3rd. He’d be perfect!! Resign Pamphile & draft another OL in later rounds. Let Kappa, Pamphile, Benenoch & Sweezy battle it out. COMPETITION will make everyone better!!!
February 1st, 2018 at 7:19 pm
The goal is to add talent to the roster.
Quenton Nelson & Andrew Norwell elite talents. Anytime you have a chance to upgrade positions of need – U do it.
February 1st, 2018 at 7:24 pm
2018 Adding a couple younger, serviceable defensive lineman.
Plus at least two above average corners – will be key.
This year signing an aging veteran cornerback won’t cut it, because the talent pool in 2019 is extremely limited; at the position. So a one year band-aid is not the solution.
Recap
2018
-Younger Serviceable Lineman
-2 Stud Corners
2019
-At Least one Stud Defensive Lineman
Example:
• Khalil Mack DE 26 OAK (See:Edwards)
• Carlos Dunlap DE 28 CIN <–#1 trade target
• Brandon Graham DE 29 PHI
• Frank Clark DE 24 SEA
• Danielle Hunter DE 23 MIN
• Henry Anderson DE 26 IND
• Trey Flowers DE 24 NE
• Mario Edwards DT 23 OAK ← Can’t sign both – trade target??
• Eddie Goldman DT 24 CHI
• Carl Davis DT 25 BAL ← Cheap Serviceable trade target
Outside of that – wait for someone to be released ala Mo Wilkerson.
February 1st, 2018 at 7:26 pm
2019 FREE AGENTS – CORNERBACK
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2019/cornerback/
February 1st, 2018 at 7:27 pm
@ Joe
It is the total sieve that it was in Lovie Smith’s first year when it was a complete circus highlighted by window-shutter-flapping-in-the-breeze Anthony Collins, snap-over-the-head-of-the-quarterback Garrett Gilkey and dreads-flopping-in-the-air after getting freight-trained by a bull rush Josh Allen? Certainly not.
I’m confused.
February 1st, 2018 at 8:00 pm
Also don’t forget the load plea – from a Bucs fan that wanted us -to draft his replacement; LT Terron Armstead. Was pissed when we selected Glennon over him (archives 2013 draft)
February 1st, 2018 at 8:16 pm
Again, our offense is not the problem. We were able to move the ball well all season, in spite of a terrible running game. The inability to make field goals and score in the red zone made this offense look far worse then it actually was.
Our defense however was pathetic. If Chubb doesn’t slide they will pick Vea. The guy is a beast and he will make the whole D-line better. Do you think for 1 minute Licht, Koetter and Smith will go BPA (Nelson) and just hope that maybe a DE in the 2nd or 3rd round will come in and make this defense formidable? Not a chance! D Ends rarely make an impact year 1 and guess what? They only have a year to turn things around or they’re all gone. So, they will go defense and they will pick the player with the highest likelihood of making an impact and that’s Vea.
February 1st, 2018 at 8:42 pm
If you are trying to win with offense (like this team is obviously trying to do), you better be better than average on the offensive side of the ball. The line got better than average play out of its center and both tackles, but both guards seemed to struggle mightily. I’m not saying the team needs to burn the #7 pick on a guard (especially if an edge rusher, elite back, or lock down CB can be had there. But, it would be irresponsible to “stand pat,” or as Joe likes to say “maintain the status woe” on either line. Of course, that seems to be the M.O. this off season.
February 1st, 2018 at 10:56 pm
Average OL + worst starting RB in the NFL + predictable vanilla play calling = a one dimensional offense that will have trouble moving the ball consistently (no matter how talented the QB and his receiving targets are) unless the defense goes into a prevent mode in the second half and allows a bunch of garbage yards. When one looks at the first half and second half stats for Tampa’s O in 2017 (particularly on the road) its pretty obvious that the above equation fits the Bucs like a glove.
February 1st, 2018 at 11:41 pm
Nelson will ball in the nfl and with him and Ali (better move him back to G if we get Nelson) we might be able to have above average line for possibly the next decade and a half.
February 1st, 2018 at 11:52 pm
And ironically, we also had 2 different offensive lineman playing from that game going forward.
Convenient little fact missing from that statement. Hmmm….
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
February 2nd, 2018 at 12:13 am
There will be four very nice BPAs for our number seven. Chubb, Barkley, Minkah, Nelson. All holes of this team.
February 2nd, 2018 at 7:17 am
@unbelievable- I guess the thought is that if you say it enough times it must be true!
But wait, it’s Martin’s fault!
Couldn’t score…
Couldn’t hit the deep ball…
Couldn’t protect…
Couldn’t manage the clock…
Couldn’t stop turning it over…
Couldn’t stop calling the same plays…
MmmHmm! Martin! That’s what it was.