Koetter Likes The Deep Passes
January 13th, 2018
Yeah, it’s easy to say Dirk Koetter’s offense is a vertical offense. But a peek inside the numbers sure bears that out.
Of course, we all know how lousy the Bucs were with YAC (yards after catch). The Bucs were one of the worst in the NFL averaging a paltry 4.4 yards. Only the Crows were worse. Throw in the fact that reserves Charles Sims and Adam Humphries led the Bucs in YAC and were way down the NFL food chain in YAC, and it borders on embarrassing.
Yet the Bucs set a franchise record this season with 7.61 passing yards per attempt.
Just doing a little math (always scary), if a team sets a franchise mark for passing yards per attempt, yet stinks out loud in YAC, that tells Joe the targets for America’s Quarterback, Pro Bowler Jameis Winston, were not guys hanging out in the flat all that much.
Given how the offense was mostly lousy in the first halves of games, perhaps mixing in more shorter passes to DeSean Jackson in space and letting his wheels take over might be in order?
January 13th, 2018 at 10:11 am
Koetter will be his own downfall. He is already his own worst enemy. His blind loyalty to his scheme and his buddies will continue to drag this team down. Mike Smith should have been fired on Black Monday. The Seahawks fired the young up and coming DC who helped build the legion of boom and yet Mike Smith is still employed? There is zero accountability in One Bucs Place and that is scary. Screw Koetter’s scheme. He can barely scheme to the strengths of his QB and he straight up refused to run with Peyton Barber when a blind man saw he should. There are a lot of parallels between Koetter and Malarkey in Tennessee and that’s funny because Koetter often compares the Bucs offense to theirs.
January 13th, 2018 at 10:14 am
Shorter-accurate-timely passes are the kool-aid for any young QB. Where is the coaching? Hence, why I think new Offensive voices are needed. He should have heard that by now and worked it into his goto bag of plays during off season. If DJAX stays in TB, there will be an off season to improve with #3. I still think there is a chance that he may be dealt for a DE. Hope they take full advantage if he is a Buc. Jameis should still be hungry; hope he is having a siesta somewhere tropical. Food for the soul. He has a ton of work to do.
January 13th, 2018 at 10:17 am
stat up all the QB missed throws…distance and route…the rest of the story
January 13th, 2018 at 10:30 am
Yeah Joe that would have been in order weeks 1-16 this past season. Dirks routes in his offense are one of the things that drive me crazy. That and the lack of screens and draws. The fact he didnt put in any slants, wr screens etc was a case of terrible coaching. This offense is not set up for yac. Just watch the routes. Always outs and comebacks, curls. No crossing routes, slants, mesh etc. He needs to hit the lab and get them into the offense or itll be another long year. And spread the defense out, 4 wrs if u must, and run it. Every time sims was in they threw it, every time! Bad coaching. If the defense knows whats coming it wont work. From what i recall the bucs ran one draw play this year, to quizz for 36 yards. One slant to djax for 41. Ill admit i didnt watch every min of every game tho because of the bad coaching. But those numbers sound pretty effective to me. Get your heads of of your bums over there at one buc.
N shuthebucup
Exactly. Watch that titans game, same routes. No yac. Mariota had it goin on when wisenhunt was there. Now its a mess. They went out and got a bunch of weapons too. With the routes they run you dont need highly drafted wrs. At least they have a defensive coordinator who can coach with the best of em, so they have a shot.
January 13th, 2018 at 10:33 am
IMO what this team needs is an identity.
The Bucs were tagged with a “pretty boy” label last year. It was going to be “bombs away” to DJax. It didn’t work and never was who we are.
The low point of the season for me was after the second game. The players were beat up (already) and the pen-and-mike crew were sobbing about injuries and the unfairness of the first week bye.
The old Bucs were known as a physical team that beat you up. That’s what I thought Koetter’s “big f’n stick” was supposed to be about. Until the other side fears us the speed and finesse won’t matter. And if they fear us the speed and finesse still won’t matter — the intimidation will matter much more.
Here’s hoping we can channel Hardy Nickerson through Kwon or Lavonte or someone.
January 13th, 2018 at 11:00 am
His offenses rank up yards but not touchdowns which is why he’s still on the verge of being unemployed, don’t expect him to change what he does so like free agency watch there might as well be a head coach watch in anticipation of his firing next year. I hope we don’t resign Charles Sims because that’s the only way this coach will not use like 4 backs. Too many passes went Adam Humphries way and Charles Sims. Never seen a coach with this many weapons call so many plays for lesser players
January 13th, 2018 at 11:07 am
yeah he likes the deep passes so much he won’t even go away from the long developing plays when we play great passrush teams like the panthers. it plays right into the teeth of their defense allowing them to embarrass us even on our own field.
then all the Winston haters come after he gets bumrushed for 60 minutes forced into a few takeaways. and everybody crys that Winston doesn’t just take what the defense gives him but we don’t even have a check down on so many plays.
Dirk lost me in that first panther game. they couldn’t adjust at half-time and in fact didn’t adjust all year since the panthers did the same thing to us in the rematch and sacked our QB 12 times. F**k your long yard per play offdnse Dirk your soft team can’t even get a yard when they need it……you suck hard dude
January 13th, 2018 at 11:18 am
Oh Yeah..the deep paas. 5-11..the DEEP PASS!! Go ahead Koetter get us more great offensive players so you can throw the…DEEP PASS and still get beat by your opposition.
January 13th, 2018 at 11:20 am
not there yet…….There is nothing wrong with Charles Sims. Any time we give the guy the ball in space he makes a play. Our moron coach don’t know how to use him. That’s why he had him lined up in slot this year and tried to use him as a feature back last year. He doesn’t know how to evaluate or use his own players, just like Doug and Phamphile and Djax and others……..I’m convinced Dirks lack of knowledge of his own players is why our special teams unit sucks badly.
Simms posses me off the most because 2015 was the perfect blueprint how to use him……. but nook Dirk doesn’t like pro formation in his precious offense.
Just let Chuck go Dirk don’t know how to use him. The Pats will let Dion Lewis walk now that he is worth a payday then they will pick up a guy like Simms of the scappile and get a RD a week from him.
January 13th, 2018 at 11:22 am
Winston is not accurate on the long ball with some of the very best receivers in the game.. Cant hit guys in stride so passing to a spot may work out better but … a disappointment with Jackson on the team.
January 13th, 2018 at 11:31 am
DK needs to change the offensive scheme from a vertical offense which takes too long for the wr routes to develop to a west coast offense to get the ball out of JW3 hands quicker and this may also help with the yac.
January 13th, 2018 at 11:50 am
@ joe
I read an article on how jameis was 3rd in the league on third down conversion at 48%. It also pointed out that jameis was also 3rd behind wentz and rodgers on third down in another catagory. That would be another article to write in order to show these yahoos who blame jameis and thinks he is the worst qb in the league just how stupid they truly are.
January 13th, 2018 at 12:03 pm
Trade YAC for Deep Passes? 🤔
January 13th, 2018 at 12:07 pm
Nothing wrong with some on another team. What’s makes our offense predictor is using the backs in the exact same roles same down and distance type plays and doing it all year long as if it’s not obvious. Yes Sims is good in space but how often do we get to see that or do you see our stupid coach putting him in the game in the 4th quarter then running him up the middle.
There are multiple backs in the draft, you could pick one who can do what all 4 of our backs do well. This idiot coach has the distinct honor of being the only coach not to know how to use d Jack
January 13th, 2018 at 12:09 pm
Jameis Winston was 3rd among QBs in IAY (Intended Air Yards). Only Drew Stanton and Deshaun Watson averages were higher. And those guys started 5 and 6 games. I have been saying this for years. Dirk Koetter offense is geared towards the love of the deep ball. In 2016 Jameis Winston was 2nd in IAY.
January 13th, 2018 at 12:12 pm
If Charles Sims was in New Orleans offense, he would be an All-World RB. The Bucs has wasted Charles Sims talent.
January 13th, 2018 at 12:14 pm
Lake..agree with Charles Simms observation
January 13th, 2018 at 12:35 pm
Lakeland you are absolutely right
January 13th, 2018 at 1:30 pm
@Joe … “Given how the offense was mostly lousy in the first halves of games, perhaps mixing in more shorter passes to DeSean Jackson in space and letting his wheels take over might be in order?”
Welcome to the Dark Side Joe. Many of us said that every week during this past season but did DK listen? Nooooo. In those games where our QBs focused more on the short and intermediate stuff, our offense seemed to do quite a bit better. Add in a running game this year (similar to how New Orleans operated) and this offense could truly be deadly. Panthers rushed the most (48% of the time), followed by the Saints (44%), the Falcons (44% also) and we pulled up the rear (38%). Hurt our TOP also. Koetter’s history looks like he’d prefer to run closer to 45% – 50% of the time.
January 13th, 2018 at 1:42 pm
Dion Lewis would be nasty in our offense!!
Bring in some Patriot mentality too!
Look at Camara. Quickness kills. Dual threat running backs are the future.
I like Charles Sims a lot too.
He just needs chances! Give him more touches, he will make bigtime plays.
Peyton Barber, Dion Lewis, Charles Sims, and draft a 3rd round RB.
January 13th, 2018 at 2:05 pm
Tony Romo said before the Patriots game that the Bucs run a 1980s style offense, then he paused for a moment since it came off as an insult when I’m not sure he meant it to be an insult. Anywho the Bucs do run a 1980s deep ball offense, and I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing. However I also don’t get the sudden out of the blue obsession with YAC. The Bucs throw the deep ball probably as much as anyone and the Yards Per Attempt reflects that, it’s quite good. If the Bucs wanted a high YAC they could just throw the ball like Mike Glenn does, meaning at or behind the line of scrimmage on every play and let guys run 3 yards forward before they get tackled – in that case they’d get 3 yards of YAC, meanwhile Winston firing it over the middle to Brate when he has a guy hung all over him and getting a first down out of it, that would net you 0 YAC. Also Mike Evans is never “open” – on pretty much every play he’s being dragged down by a defend the moment the ball is snapped and on top of that is often double teamed – his YAC is going to be extremely low because of that. Does that mean you don’t throw the ball to Evans because his YAC isn’t any good? No, of course not.
Again, in this style of offense the YAC isn’t a big deal since you have less stuff underneath than almost everyone in the league. If the Bucs had low YAC and low YPA, then you get concerned, but they don’t.
There is literally no issue here, at least not in the way it’s framed. I think most people wonder why Dirk just quit running D-Jax on things like slants pretty early in the season and basically made him a two route guy, run deep or curl, it seems like that was 90% of the usage of D-Jax. But fixing that to me wouldn’t be about getting better on the YAC chart, it’s about getting better usage of your players.
January 13th, 2018 at 2:06 pm
It’ll be year 4 in this same offense, the guy isn’t innovative, like beating your head against a brick wall, the worse thing that could happen next year is going 8-8 9-7, then it’ll be considered progress, ugh I hate my life
January 13th, 2018 at 2:27 pm
If you go look at ProFootballReference they list the Bucs offensive style as Air Coryell. I’ve been a Bucs fan for 30+ years, but the Air Coryell days go back slightly more than that so I was reading up on the Air Coryell philosophy and this part stuck out to me since Joe just brought it up yesterday I believe….
“The offense did not have any set formations, as receivers could line up anywhere on any given pass play. Passes were thrown to a spot before the receiver even got there, allowing defenders no hint where the pass was being targeted. Each receiver had two or three different route options they could adjust depending on the coverage during the play. Throwing a deep pass was the first option on each play.
The Coryell offense is a combination of deep and mid range passing and power running. The offense relies on getting all five receivers out into patterns that combined stretched the field, setting up defensive backs with route technique and the Quarterback throwing to a spot on time where the receiver can catch and turn upfield. Pass protection is critical to success because at least two of the five receivers will run a deep in, skinny post, comeback, speed out, or shallow cross.
Overall, the goal of the Coryell offense is to have at least two downfield, fast wide receivers who adjust to the deep pass very well, combined with a sturdy pocket quarterback with a strong arm. The Coryell offense uses three key weapons. The first is a strong inside running game, the second is its ability to strike deep with two or more receivers on any play, and the third is to not only use those two attacks in cooperation with each other, but to include a great deal of mid-range passing to a TE, WR, or back.”
For old oldtimers this might be obvious, but while I’ve certainly heard the term Air Coryell I never read up on it before. For the Bucs you can see why they wanted D-Jax so much, it’s a crucial part of the offense. The throwing to a spot where the WR can turn upfield isn’t happening however – is that the result of this being a 40 year old offense that defenses have learned to defend, or is it personnel – or is it just a Dirk spin on things – like always secure the ball first and foremost, don’t worry about running with the ball until you have caught it.
Anyways interesting stuff, at least to me.
January 13th, 2018 at 2:33 pm
It amazes me.how many fans bash Koetter and his offense when it’s the best offense we have had in years.
How about focus on the real problem this team has. Only a moron would overlook the fact that if the Bucs had an average defense they would be a winning team.
January 13th, 2018 at 2:39 pm
Some say he didn’t run enough screens, and some say he ran too many screens. Everyone has their own preference, and it always looks great when it works, and terrible when it doesn’t. Truth is, Dirk’s scheme is perfect for a QB like Jameis. He is a pocket passer with a strong arm and very long release. Vertical plays take longer to develop, which gives Jameis more time to read the defense and get rid of the ball. If Dirk ran more short, timing plays, it wouldn’t be conducive for Jameis. For one, it wouldn’t take advantage of his ability to throw downfield (he’s one of the best at doing that), plus it would be harder for him since he needs to get rid of the ball fast. Obviously you don’t want to he one-dimensional, but stick to what your QB is best at.
January 13th, 2018 at 3:22 pm
Koetter needs to go back to the no huddle he used in Atlanta.
January 13th, 2018 at 3:34 pm
NFC South Receiving RBs
Alvin Kamara | 81- 826 Yards- 5 TD
Christian McCaffrey | 80-651-5 TD
Mark Ingram |58- 416- 0-TD
Devonta Freeman |36- 317- 1 TD
Tevin Coleman | 27-299-3 TD
Charles Sims | 35-249-1 TD
Doug Martin | 9-84-0 TD
Jonathan Stewart | 8-52-1 TD
This is ridiculous
The RB is a important part of the passing game
The other 3 teams uses their RBs in the passing game
That’s why they went to the playoffs and the Bucs didn’t
January 13th, 2018 at 5:58 pm
LakeLand – It depends on the style of offense you run – and the Bucs again run a deep ball offense, meaning backs are generally kept in for protection on passing plays – in particular when you have a terrible offensive line. Also Peyton Barber you left off that list, he had 16-141, and Rodgers, who had 9-74 – if you account for that the Bucs had 69-548, compared to the Falcons 63-616 – and the Falcons have probably the top duo of receiving backs in the NFL.
January 13th, 2018 at 7:19 pm
Rod Munch
The Bucs scored 22 points against the Carolina Panthers in 2 games. The Saints scored 97 points against the Panthers in 3 games. Carolina sacked Jameis Winston 9 times in 2 games. Carolina sacked Drew Brees 4 times in 3 games. The deep ball take time to develop. And then all of the blame fall on the O-Line. You have to help the O-Line, with screens,quick slants etc.
January 13th, 2018 at 7:21 pm
Lakeland being delusional once again lol
January 13th, 2018 at 7:52 pm
Those are actual facts
Facts that lead to a 5-11 Record
January 13th, 2018 at 8:23 pm
LakeLand – While I love Jameis, I’m not proclaiming him to be better than Drew Brees. Wow. Also the Bucs have always played Carolina poorly, always, even in the Bucs glory years the games against Carolina were awful. Anywho Drew Brees is a 1st ballot HOF QB who has a great running game this year and has the highest completion percentage of any QB ever. It’s a terrible comparison to say a 3rd year QB with no running game and an awful line is no Drew Brees. Yeah, I know.
Anywho I don’t disagree with you in that you should work in more short stuff to help the OL, I’m just pointing out how the RBs are used in the system. I will say however late in the year, once Dirk was coaching for his job, he did a better job of mixing things up. For example 1st down play action passes, he actually used them quite a bit late in the year and it opened up the running. Why it took him 13 games to start doing that I don’t know, but over the last few games the Bucs mixed it up more, I’m hoping we get the late season Dirk.
January 13th, 2018 at 8:36 pm
Facts! ShutTheBucUp said it perfectly. Koetter is a fraud he took Marla keys offense over after he left. And ran Malarkeys offense instead of running his own system. His offense does great the first year but after that they always fall off. He’s wasnt that great of an oc either. How many times did he have a top 5 scoring offense? Just a thought why are we keeping Lovie’s left overs. Licht and Koetter. Someone please explain this to me. Glazers please get a president of football operations because y’all clearly don’t know how to pick the right people.
January 13th, 2018 at 8:52 pm
Wow…. Mariota is sure looking like a franchise QB. If Jameis has a lingering injury in that shoulder, or the Uber thing blows up, I might have to admit that maybe we did choose the wrong QB, and Marcus may be the one worthy of being called “America’s QB”.
January 13th, 2018 at 10:10 pm
On this site, I’ve probably read 1000 posts that used “game manager” “dink and dunk offense” as a pejorative. Now some of the same people who used to be critical of offenses that dunked and dinked and QB’s who “managed” those systems are calling for both. Now claiming we need short routes…….what a group of retards. If there is any doubts, have you posted about how 80’s offensive schemes can’t work with the modern nfl game……..? Yes…….your a f-in tard.
Rod , pff isn’t right about Air cor. Partially, correct but that’s not the best label.
I have to think that it’s obvious what’s incorrect information from pff.
Last, this is 100% the case, there is no “New” offensive idea or system. The 3 NFL
pro style schemes are from the 70-80’s. So when I read the “expert” posts that contain “outdated offense” or “80’s” It is humorous to see how stupid people are by parroting a point they simply read somewhere else. They do it and believe using the same phrase makes them smarter, the “I know more than you” fan. “You don’t football” is the most likely way to identify these arrogant but plugs.
January 14th, 2018 at 12:19 am
Duke – It’s not PFF, if it was I’d have discredited it – it was from ProFootballReference, a much more respectable site. Also saying it’s an Air Coryell label isn’t a judgement, it’s just the roots of the offense – and reading the description of the Air Coryell offense as it’s explained, a lot of it is what the Bucs do today. Everything is based on something, the Tampa 2 is based on the Cover 2, which goes back to the 70s, and it still works today – it’s not a knock to know history. Obviously Dirk has his own take on the offense, but saying it’s an 80s style offense is just a statement on 80s styles offenses – which could in theory mean pro-set west coast offenses, which are still ran today, or more like how it’s meant here in that’s it’s a Dan Fouts type of offense.
It is very safe to say I ran circles around you and I clearly know a lot more than yourself and I’m also the smarter person, I think everyone can agree on that. Anywho knowing history, knowing origins and being able to follow timelines is a positive thing, not a negative one. Try being less emotionally involved next time, or maybe just wait until your period has ended before posting.
God bless.
January 14th, 2018 at 8:13 am
Too bad he has a QB that can’t complete one.