Accountability
January 9th, 2018
NFC South OC launched.
It is starting to smell as if two different NFC South franchises have completely different standards and goals.
Today, both the offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach of the Carolina Panthers, Mike Shula and Ken Dorsey, respectively, were given the heave-ho by the Stinking Panthers.
That would be the same Stinking Panthers who have been in the postseason four of the past five seasons and a Super Bowl appearance, including a narrow loss in the wild card round Sunday at New Orleans, despite putting up 413 yards of offense with basically backup wide receivers.
These would be the same coaches who helped groom Cam Newton into an NFL MVP and a clear franchise quarterback, one who can put a team on his back and carry it.
These would be the same coaches who had the No. 4 rushing attack in the NFL this past season averaging 131.4 yards on the ground a game.
Now Joe turns his eyes to the Bucs. Tampa Bay was godawful in getting to the quarterback — last in the NFL in sacks, despite dropping $19 million for 2017 into the laps of three defensive lineman (Robert Ayers, Swaggy Baker and Will Gholston). For their investment, Team Glazer got 2.5 sacks in return.
The Bucs defense also had the worst third-down defense — by far — allowing 48 percent of third downs to be converted.
The Bucs also had the NFL’s worst pass defense.
Add to this the current defensive staff’s inability to develop a young corner — there is an APB out for Vernon Hargreaves, anyone seen him the last two months? This is also the same defensive staff that apparently cannot develop a young edge rusher.
(Joe is willing to give a pass to the coaches because Noah Spence has been hurt, though it is very telling Spence raved about his time spent with Simeon Rice because he said he never heard suggestions, ideas and concepts of how to get to the quarterback like he had from Rice.)
So we have one team that regularly gets into the postseason; and despite strong offensive numbers with questionable talent at receiver, develops a guy into one of the game’s top quarterbacks, it tosses its offensive coaches aside.
Then you have another team in the same division that is an annual basement dweller, which has one of the NFL’s worst defenses, shows no ability to develop young talent at critical positions, and all is good? Nothing to see here folks, we’re fine.
What exactly is going on here? It is one of two things to Joe.
Either the powers that be with Bucs and the Stinking Panthers have totally different standards, or there is no accountability at One Buc Palace.
Which is it?
January 9th, 2018 at 12:54 pm
Glazers could careless about team, city or winning. They are spreadsheet owners with no desire to win or be great…
January 9th, 2018 at 12:57 pm
Mike Shula offense has also outscore the Bucs offense for 4 straight seasons.
January 9th, 2018 at 12:58 pm
No legit reason not to launch Smith. It’s almost enough for me to take next year off. (Seriously, any one expect a different result next year now? Gimme a break.) ill still follow, but with a condescending humor I didn’t have this year.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:10 pm
They had to keep everyone… who would come for 1 year??
January 9th, 2018 at 1:10 pm
They were fired because the team is being sold.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:15 pm
It’ll be interesting to see how that plays out. I thought Shula did well with them to cater the offense to Cam / the players they had.
Cam has never really developed as a passer. He still has to rely on his legs / read-options for that offense to do well; so I wouldn’t say they really improved him as a passer; as much as they still continue to just build around his skill set
January 9th, 2018 at 1:16 pm
Glazers, Culverhouse, same same. They are making money and are more worried about their Futbol team than their football team. We wont change until we get new owners, IMO
January 9th, 2018 at 1:17 pm
Plus last season he had no pass rush yet they failed to address in the off-season. Next season comes still same issue. So do we give him another pass and same excuses? For the first time as a Bucs fan it’s hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. My season tickets right now are in limbo….Go Bucs!
January 9th, 2018 at 1:18 pm
The Glazer boys get that huge tv money no matter what they do.
Plus they see that 10% drop in ratings and decide to stand pat, ride it out, and not spend much.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:18 pm
ZERO accountability. No team in their right mind would allow a defensive coordinator to be the worst at the position, even worse than the Browns (think about THAT!), and keep their job. No team in their right mind would sit back and watch the same putrid plays on offense be called over and over again with no results. Andy Reid comes to mind. GM too, hello Aguayo!
The ONE thing Tampa Bay does CONSISTENTLY is cut checks for losing.
It’s tough being a fan. Think about what fans have to look forward to next year. The draft?!
January 9th, 2018 at 1:20 pm
Id take Mike Shula. Good record, knows the Division. With our weapons bet he could do better than Koetter.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:21 pm
Why are you even asking this question? There is no accountability at One Buc Place.
Simple as that.
If going by the established standard of success and failure by Team Glazer, there is nothing Dirk Koetter and his coaching staff did during the season that warranted another year. The 2015 team was better than the 2017 squad.
You are indirectly targeting Mike Smith with this and other articles but the problems with the Bucs are bigger than one coach. Mike Smith had his failures but so did Dirk Koetter and Jason Licht. What we are hearing as of today is that *nothing* is changing. Sure, certain players will lose their jobs but why should we believe Jason Licht is going to get it right *this* time? He’s had over four years.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:23 pm
If Firing coaches is “accountablity” then the Bucs have been the most accountable franchise the last 10 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go Bucs!!!!!!!!!!
January 9th, 2018 at 1:24 pm
Glazers could care less, huh? I guess that means the worst is yet to come because it’s still possible for them to care less than they already do.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:24 pm
Kalind says:
“any one expect a different result next year”
I do actually – assuming Licht puts a good bit of focus on bringing in some more talented defensive players this offseason which I believe he will.
“one of the game’s top quarterbacks”
I wouldn’t go that far Joe. Yea he had a very good season in 2015 when the stars were all aligned and the Panthers went 15-1. But most of the time – including this year – SCam’s play looks more like Tim Tebow than any resemblance to John Elway or Randall Cunningham who both had Newton’s great running ability and rocket arms – but could actually hit receivers downfield on a regular basis unlike “SuperSCam”.
People who say Jameis has “accuracy” problems should watch more Carolina games if they think Newton is a top QB and Jameis is not…
January 9th, 2018 at 1:27 pm
Kudos Joe, you’ve outdone yourself. The WHOLE first half of your article is about the Panthers’ OFFENSE, and lickety-split you follow that with bitchin’ about the Bucs’ DEFENSE. I almost said that you missed a great opportunity to compare APPLES-TO-APPLES (OK, offense to offense), but then it dawned on me … that was never your intention, was it.
Panthers offense ranked #12 in Points Scored (363 pts) & they went 11-5. Result: OC AND QB Coach get fired. Bucs’ offense Ranked #18 in Points Scored (335 pts) & they went 5-11. Result: Our OC AND QB Coach are retained, and everyone yells for Scapegoat Smitty to get fired. Yup, makes perfect sense to me.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:28 pm
Let me play Devil’s advocate here and take the other side….
Why were they launched?…….what is the basis….with all of their good numbers, why not keep them? Could it be that the error is the Panther’s….
Now, that doesn’t change accountability on the Bucs….and it’s not too late for changes to be made.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:28 pm
Bucsfanman
It has to be tough being a Buc fan. Especially when a Mike Shula offense has outscored your defense for 4 straight seasons. Here’s Mike Shula offense numbers as Tampa Bay OC.
1996 | 13.8 PTS/G
1997 | 18.7 PTS/G
1998 | 19.6 PTS/G
1999 | 16.9 PTS/G
January 9th, 2018 at 1:31 pm
Mike Shula offense outscored the Bucs Offense for 4 straight seasons.
Error
January 9th, 2018 at 1:31 pm
Did anyone see the report that claims that an “NFL exec” claims that Craft would take 3 first round picks for Belicheat? Why would that scenario play out worse than our present one?
January 9th, 2018 at 1:33 pm
People actually think that Bill Belichick can win Super Bowls without Tom Brady?
January 9th, 2018 at 1:37 pm
If Smith goes Koetter has to go because he’s the reason for last year’s 5 game win streak if not. Koetter has a worst record than Schiano. I hope Koetter grows a pair a coaches to win.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:39 pm
@Joe
You could very well be right…that Shula and friend got tossed for performance issues.
I certainly wouldn’t be shocked if that was the reason.
I confess that while I have great respect for Cam Newton’s talent…that’s about it.
Don’t care for his shenanigans and his leadership style. He makes me realize for all his challenges at least #3 is not totally about himself. I honestly believe #3 is a vicarious dude who rejoices not only in wins for the team but also for the individual success of his teammates. He’s incredibly supportive.
I don’t get that feeling from Cam at all. What if Shula got tossed because Cam wanted him to be tossed. Who do we suppose has the juice in that franchise…which btw is struggling at the top because of the For Sale Sign.
Cam may have more juice than even Rivera…I feel certain he has more juice than any OC QB coaches and they coach at his pleasure. Perhaps Shula wore out his welcome with Cam.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:39 pm
Howard thinks the Glazers should get out of the sports business and get into the “Creepy Clown” business. Think about it. The three of them as creepy clowns? They’d slay the competition. Pennywise would be yesterdays news. They need to play to their strengths.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:40 pm
Remember when Mike Shula was OC for Bucs? I do. And he was awful.
January 9th, 2018 at 1:44 pm
D.R.
One can only hope Smitty and his coaches read JBF… You have created the best argument for their efforts I have read. I do not disagree at all with your fundamental observation. No pass rush means failure for ANY NFL DC.
Pass rushes begin with the DL and ours was rotten with the possible exception of GMC. Some of those backup players the last couple of games also got my attention. Maybe we can find a player out of that group?
January 9th, 2018 at 1:47 pm
I didn’t hate Koetter staying. What I don’t understand is Mike Smith staying. The defense stinks top to bottom. The only explanation is if you totally blame the DL and lack of talent at that position but even still….
January 9th, 2018 at 1:56 pm
We can talk about how bad the Bucs defense is, all day long. But this is the reality of the Bucs and their history. The Bucs offense has NEVER led the NFC South in scoring. Even in 2012, when they set franchise records for points scored, they finish 3rd in the NFC South in scoring. The Bucs will always be a Bottom Feeder in the NFC South, if they don’t improve on offensive scoring.
January 9th, 2018 at 2:02 pm
Mike Smith defenses have finished LAST in the NFL in two of the last four years (2014 Atlanta Falcons and 2017 Tampa Bay Bucs) and one of those years Mike Smith didn’t coach.
I kind of think the Bucs need to get rid of him.
January 9th, 2018 at 2:06 pm
I guarantee you, you won’t win the NFC South scoring 20-22 points a game. I don’t care if you have the 1985 Chicago Bears defense. They can continue to ignore this problem and continue to blame the defense. But the fact is the 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers scored 21 points or less in 9 of their 11 losses.
January 9th, 2018 at 2:10 pm
I’m sorry, I’m sure Mike Smith is swell guy and all, but when you finish LAST in defense, behind a team that actually finished 0-16 that cannot happen. There are plenty of talented D coaches out there that have a proven track record of success. Can we have one of those please?
January 9th, 2018 at 2:10 pm
Bucs are going nowhere with DC pressdbox Smiity but back to the celler and thr bottom feeders.
January 9th, 2018 at 2:11 pm
The Bucs need better play from their Offense, Defense and Special Teams.
January 9th, 2018 at 2:16 pm
LakeLand- It’s interesting that people bemoan our defense’s lack of ability to close games but completely sweep aside the offense’s inability to score TDs early, or ever. The game is complementary. A team that scores TDs instead of FGs will always have an advantage REGARDLESS of the defense. It puts less pressure on the defense which means……that they can rush the passer or blitz a little more which………leads to more QB pressures and possibly turnovers, and……instead of playing from behind, the offense can take its time and develop plays while killing clock which….keeps your defense off the field and, FRESH.
It’s a novel approach, I know (sarcasm!)!!!
January 9th, 2018 at 2:20 pm
Assuming they fire Smith….if the owners are giving Koetter one more year to show improvement and he doesn’t….then the team is on the hook for Koetters contract and Smith’s contract plus assistants AS WELL AS the new defensive coordinators contract plus assistants. PLUS….the new head coach and his coordinators when they hire someone new.
Its easy to preach accountability when you’re not the one on the hook for $millions of dollars for unemployed coaches. Plus, the defense didn’t play terrible the last 5 weeks of the year.
Green Bay was held to 84 yds passing and a total of 269….Difference in the game was 6 pts….Jaboo Magoo fumbled for a Packer TD
Lions we lost by 3 pts….Magoo had 3 turnovers, Howard/Martin each fumbled….turnovers gave Lions easy field position. Defense still managed 2 turnovers
Atlanta we lost 24-21…Barber fumbled on the 9 yd line, giving away at least 3pts.
Panthers we lost by 4….Defense held Carolina to 255 yds, intercepted Newton once…Jaboo Magoo fumbled 3 times. Special teams gave up a 103 kickoff return.
Saints we won…despite 3 interceptions by Winston, held the Saints to 24.
If you’re offense (particularly QB) is giving away turnovers that lead to favorable field position or take points off the board in the red zone, that’s not the defenses fault. The defense needs obvious help from a talent perspective but i dont think coaching was the issue the last 5 weeks.
January 9th, 2018 at 2:35 pm
mike shula was hired in 2013 and had the opportunity to work through a couple of seasons of disappointing results on offense before winning OC of the year honors in his third year. If he’s going i would bet it has something to do with either personalities, a power struggle, or a sacrificial lamb and not the actual production of the offense in a year where Cam and other key offensive players battled some injuries and their #1 WR was traded midseason
i completely get the “fire mike smith” rationale, but it presumes that somebody better is going to run this defense for a coach on the brink of getting fired. sad but true, our best bet for 2018 is the same coach with better players. You could argue for Duffner but I think if the Glazers do much more as far as firing guys to promote their assistants they are going to incentivize their coaches and coordinators to hire weak assistants or risk distrust and internal politics
January 9th, 2018 at 2:36 pm
Teams scored 78 points against the Bucs off turnovers
Teams scored another 21 points on Special Teams TDs
Teams scored a total of 382 points against the Bucs
Subtract the 99 points, that’s 283 total points
Which comes to 17.7 points per game
January 9th, 2018 at 2:41 pm
I understand that the defense actually surrendered the points off the Bucs turnovers. But if the offense don’t turn the ball over, the defense wouldn’t be on the field.
January 9th, 2018 at 2:47 pm
Lakeland nowngo ahead and do that math for all the other teams. See what they give up a game After equating turnovers too
January 9th, 2018 at 2:48 pm
Speaking of panthers team rushing the Bucs were 27th ranked in the nfl. The no rb excuse shouldn’t carry more validity then the no defensive end excuse .
January 9th, 2018 at 2:55 pm
How do you mention Mike Shula without saying he was a 12th round QB drafted by Ray Perkins in 1987 (same year as the Bucs take Vinny #1 overall) and the main reason Tony Dungy got fired. Yes, Shula was fired like 2 seasons before Dungy got fired, but it was Dungy sticking with Mike Shula for way too long which caused a lot of friction with the Glazers.
As for Shula the one good thing he did this season was use McCaffrey a lot like how he used Warrick Dunn. Of course McCaffrey isn’t nearly as good as Dunn so you don’t get the same results, but trying to replicate the Alstott / Dunn backfield with McCaffrey and Stewart wasn’t the worst idea. A better idea was doing that and not having Trent Dilfer as your starting QB, that helped tremendously.
Still that offense in Carolina all seemed to lay on Newton being impossible to sack and being able to avoid pressure on his own and create time until his WRs got open. Put a standard run of the mill QB in that offense and it’s run up the gut on first down, run up the gut on second down, throw incomplete on third down, just like in Tampa.
January 9th, 2018 at 2:58 pm
I’d give my left but to have mike Shula be out OC and have a quarter backs coach that could turn Winston into the powerhouse we all know he could be. Pick up Shula and tell keotter to coach and leave the OC position to the professionals.
January 9th, 2018 at 3:03 pm
They were 19th in total offense and 28th in passing. Not that great with Cam as the QB.
January 9th, 2018 at 3:06 pm
I agree with tmax owners don’t care about winning, they do just enough to string the fans along the winning formula to making money
January 9th, 2018 at 3:15 pm
NO ACCOUNTABILITY
-one team is determined to make changes asap in order to win……
-the other team continues to piss in the wind…..
GO BUCS!!!!
January 9th, 2018 at 3:20 pm
LakeLand – LOL! Here’s the stat again for you that says everything, points given up per opponent possession, and the Bucs ranked dead last in the league. Want to blame the offense? The number of TDs allowed by the Bucs offense? 1, and the league average was 2.4. Special teams let the Bucs down giving up 3 TDs, which was much worse than the league average of 1. So then at that point your only argument would be the turnovers putting the defense at a disadvantage. BUZZ, wrong, average starting field position for opponents was 20th in the league. The defense meanwhile not only gave up the most points per drive, they gave up the most yards per drive, the most yards per play and the most yards per pass, in addition to of course being last in sacks and therefore last in sack yards.
January 9th, 2018 at 3:22 pm
Armybucsfan – I’m guessing you became a Bucs fan in the year 2000 or later, because there is no one that lived through the Mike Shula years that would ever say he should be rehired.
January 9th, 2018 at 3:28 pm
There are 32 NFL teams.
There is a salary cap.
There is an absolute even playing field.
Market size does not matter.
It all comes down to competency from those at the top. The teams with better decision makers do better than the teams with mediocre / bad decision makers. Pretty simple.
There are several problems with this article, though: the Bucs always cleaned house – especially over the past ten years and it didn’t work. for the first time in a decade, they are showing patience. It’s hard to make your argument when that is the case. The problem is that the same bad decision makers are still making the decisions. That won’t change anytime soon, unfortunately, regardless of whether patience is displayed or not.
The second thing that bothered me A LOT was the reference of a pass for the coaches because Noah Spence – ONE PLAYER – was injured. SMH. That is the ENTIRE problem with the Bucs – reliance on one appointed guy to solve problems. No more. That is the root of bad decision making.
Smart / successful people know how to mitigate risk by stacking the odds in their favor and paying attention to what is most likely to happen rather than what they hope will happen. We hope Noah Spence is the real deal. The likelihood is that he’s an injury prone guy who can’t hold up over the course of a season. Which one of those scenarios happened in 2017?
ENOUGH
The Bucs need to change their thought process and start stacking the odds in their favor. No single player fixes any longer. They do not work for this team. Ever. The Bucs need to add a minimum of 8 new players to the offensive and defensive lines this offseason to compete and battle with the incumbents, improve the starting lineups, and bolster some much needed depth. They must go ALL IN on fixing the lines first.
Fix the trenches, fix the Bucs!
January 9th, 2018 at 3:31 pm
so lets break this down…..we have:
DEFENSE
-a defense that had the worst third-down defense — by far — allowing 48 percent of third downs to be converted.
-The Bucs also had the NFL’s worst pass defense.
OFFENSE
-cant score points
-misuses personnel
-poor play calling and clock management…etc.
SPECIAL TEAMS
-giving up 3 TDs, which was much worse than the league average of 1
OVERALL
5-11
no changes made to the front office….no changes made to the coaching staff….but we expect different results…..OK….RIGHT!!!!….
lets all continue to piss in the wind!!!!…..GO BUCS!!!!
January 9th, 2018 at 3:35 pm
but hey….lets blame:
TALENT….
IRMA….
HARD KNOCKS….
LOVIE…..
INJURIES….
(and my personal favorite)….TOUGHER SCHEDULE…..
GO BUCS!!!!
January 9th, 2018 at 3:39 pm
I get the premise of this article but did everyone on here miss the repeated comments about Cam Newton being a franchise QB? This is the same site that repeats the phrase every 5 minutes we have the 4th best QB in the division. Well lets take a look at the numbers from this year shall we:
Yards Winston: 3,504 Cam: 3,302
(BTW Cam also threw 50 more passes than Jameis),
TDs Winston: 19 Cam: 22,
INT’s Winston: 11 Cam: 16,
Comp%: Winston: 63.8% Cam 59.1%
So based on the above and if Cam is a “clear franchise QB” then what does that make our “4th best QB in the division” since he is better in basically ever passing category after only 3 years in the league?
January 9th, 2018 at 3:40 pm
How about the owners be accountable and buy Mike Smith a decent pass rusher?
January 9th, 2018 at 3:45 pm
Tony – Actually I disagree with your take, the Bucs do sign multiple guys which is why they’ve been stuck in mediocrity. Instead of going after one guy, such as Calais Campbell, they instead spread their money around and got Chris Baker, Ayers and Gholston. Yes, hindsight is 20/20, but Baker and Ayers were both 2nd rate FAs that the Bucs got for less than the full going price on defensive linemen. For Gholston I have no idea why they paid $7-mil for a two down run stopping DE, but I think it was in part overpaid because it was basically a one deal since the Bucs can get out of it with no penalty, and I’d be shocked if they didn’t redo that deal or just cut him, he’s not a bad player, but he’s not worth $7mil, even when starting DEs get doubt digit deals.
With all that said and going back to Spence, I’m not sure he’s going to excel as a DE, in particular when we heard last season he actually thinned out instead of bulked up. Unless those rumors of using a lot of 3-4 were real, and scrapped, the idea of a 230lb Spence playing DE seemed like a huge liability with limited upside. A speed rusher DE should be at least in the 265 range you’d think, but we shall see. He had a nice rookie season and I hope he comes back and makes me look like a dope for questioning him.
January 9th, 2018 at 3:51 pm
Wausa, you’re starting to remind me of that one-trick-pont tmaxcon. Every comment revolves around ‘Dump Gerald McCoy’. In your case, it’s “Smitty’s defense finished LAST in the NFL”. You KNOW that’s BS (Yardage Allowed isn’t what loses games, Points ALLOWED are all that count). How about broadening your perspective a little with a tad bit of analysis like Bobby M & Lakeland, singing that same tired song.
Mike Smith MIGHT need to be replaced as DC, I’ve said that before. BUT … don’t go firing experienced leaders BEFORE you’ve provided them with some decent resources to get the job done. Everyone (including Joe), seems to admit that the Bucs’ defense is woefully deficient in DLine talent. And most seem to be of the mindset that the Bucs’ Secondary isn’t all that swift either, and hasn’t been for the last 4 years at least (actually longer but we won’t quibble). We’ve burned through Leslie Frazier, then Lovie Smith as DCs, 2 experienced coaches whose defenses allowed 410 Points in 2014 and 417 Points in 2015. Mike Smith’s defenses improved on that somewhat in 2016 (369 Points Allowed) and in 2017 (382 Points Allowed) with LESS overall talent than the 2014 & 2015 teams had IMO. How can anyone expect this defense to improve if we keep burning through defensive coaching staffs? And if we don’t improve the level of defensive talent?
January 9th, 2018 at 3:53 pm
813bucboi – Schedule is an actual thing, the Bucs played 9 games versus playoff teams, play in by far the toughest division in football and only lost one game all year to a team with a losing record, that was the OT loss in GB to a 7-9 Packers team. Dirk, and I’m not a big fan of his, did win the games he should win as the Bucs were 4-1 versus teams under .500.
The Titans for example they beat one playoff team all year (same as the Bucs) and unlike the Bucs, who only lost 1 game to sub .500 teams, the Titans lost 5 games to sub .500 teams.
You’re telling me schedule doesn’t matter and makes no difference? If the Bucs played a cupcake schedule like the teams in the AFC South, even with as bad as this year went they’d have been at least a 10 win team and in the playoffs. Conversely put the Titans in the NFC South and they’re a 3-13 team – maybe 4-12 if they got lucky.
Schedule very much matters and looking to next year that schedule doesn’t really get any easier.
January 9th, 2018 at 3:59 pm
813bucboi, you could’ve stopped after blaming lack of talent & injuries as REASONS for our 5-11 record. Irma, Hard Knocks & Lovie truly were EXCUSES. Of course, if you want to add ‘Jason Licht’ to that list of reasons, I could second that.
January 9th, 2018 at 4:01 pm
And here more stats for the GREAT Buccaneers offense.
The Bucs scored 335 points
They averaged 20.9 points per game
Lavonte David scored on fumble recovery
Adarius Glanton scored on fumble recovery
Isaiah Johnson scored on fumble recovery
Robert McClain scored on INT
Subtract those 28 points from the 335
That’s a total of 307 points
307 divided by 16 =19.2
The Bucs offense actually scored 19.2 points per game
January 9th, 2018 at 4:03 pm
Yet the Bucs has a Top-10 offense
What a Joke
January 9th, 2018 at 4:04 pm
OK instead of complaining about why we didn’t get rid of (some) of our coaches, why not bring in those 2 for an interview?
We need an OC to call plays for Koetter. We could still use Koetter’s offense, just get a different play caller. Same for the QB coach.
On another note, there has to be something we do not know about. What about that final concussion in the game? just saying, not saying. There has to be something else.
January 9th, 2018 at 4:09 pm
Rod, excellent points about schedule. Bucs only won ONE division game last year (against Saints). Falcons (10-6) and Panthers (11-5) whooped us twice each. Had we just split those games, Falcons would’ve been 9-7 and wouldn’t have made the playoffs. Panthers would’ve been 10-6 but they played the easiest schedule of all 4 NFC South teams. Our resultant 7-9 record would’ve still led us to the NFC South cellar, but Bucs’ fans could’ve stomached that better than our 5-11 record. All we had to do to win was score 4 more points in each of the last games against the Falcons & Panthers … the difference between a FG and a TD.
January 9th, 2018 at 4:13 pm
Defense – How do you think the Bucs had MORE talent on defense in 2014 than today? Lets break it down and see… I’m doing this for real, it seems silly to me that in 2014 it had more talent, but I never really put a lot of thought into it. Lets go…
2014 | 2017
DE William Gholston / Gholston = Push
DE Michael Johnson / Ayers = Push
DT Gerald McCoy / McCoy = Push
DT Clinton McDonald / McDonald = Push
MLB Mason Foster / Alexander = 2017
LB Lavonte David / David = Push
LB Danny Lansanah / Beckwith = Push
CB Johnthan Banks / Various = 2014
CB Alterraun Verner / Grimes = 2017
S Dashon Goldson / Evans = Push
S Barron-McDougald / Conte = 2014
So by my count, and I tried to be fair, it’s a push. However the 2 spots where the 2017 have better players, they’re much better, in Kwon and Grimes, two pro-bowlers if not all-pros.
Some more thoughts, I liked Foster quite a bit, but he was the wrong style of LB for the Tampa 2 and thus was told to hit the bricks, however the upgrade in Alexander is significant. Also some might say the Lansanah / Beckwith being a push is nonsense, but Lansanah was quite good in 2014, an under appreciated player. Also Verner wasn’t as bad as people said but compared to Grimes he’s not even in the same category. Goldson / Evans being a push was close, I thought Evans had a pretty good rookie year and people will say Goldson was bad, but I personally really liked the mix of Goldson and Barron, well if you were still allowed to hit people anyways. The Barron “spiking” call on RG3 is still one of the worst calls in the history. Finally Chris Conte versus anyone will always result in me playing the field, with one exception, if it’s Conte versus Ryan Smith, then I’d have to side with the Christer.
Anywho that’s my breakdown – what say you? Please keep your answers to 25 paragraphs or less which I did in this post.
January 9th, 2018 at 4:18 pm
People need to quick saying, the Bucs defense gave up 382 points. No that’s not how it works in team sports. The Bucs TEAM gave up 382 points, they all had a hand in it.
January 9th, 2018 at 4:29 pm
Defense – On the schedule issue and the Falcons game if Dirk doesn’t punt the ball from the Falcons 43 on 4th and 3 in the 4th quarter when the defense is completely worn out and I’m 100% convinced the Bucs win. The Bucs defense had been getting lucky on the prior series as Ryan missed a few wide open guys and there was no doubt they would score again if the Bucs gave them the ball right back. This happened all season, the other time in particular where it happened was the Patriots game, another close game also lost by a kicker.
As for splitting with the Falcons that shouldn’t even be on the Bucs radar, Winston owns the Falcons and should be 4-1 against them. Winston averages like 290 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs versus them. The Bucs should literally look to sweep them every year.
For Carolina, that’s much much tougher. It’s just a bad matchup for the Bucs and has always been so. Even going back to those great Bucs defenses and when Carolina was still an early expansion team the stupid Panthers always gave us fits. They’re such a boring team to watch most years I think they put opposing players to sleep. It’s a real struggle to even get a split with those guys, but again terrible coaching this year cost them the game. At the end of the first half Dirk runs the ball from the 5 yard line inside of two mins – which isn’t a bad thing, but the bad thing is that he did it on purpose to run clock, instead of getting the TD, he was playing to run down the clock. Just really dumb. Then late in the game instead putting it away with a TD, Dirk plays for a FG, and predictably, the FG is missed, the defenses collapses, game over.
Then for the Saints, we saw at the end of the Saints game, when Dirk told Winston to play for the FG, you saw Winston finally say enough with Dirk the loser calling plays, he’s winning this thing, and Winston did so. A split year in and year out is probably the goal, although I don’t think it’s a huge leap to think the Bucs would sweep them Saints every few years. Then again Brees is 39 and has to retire at some point, right?
So overall I guess we’re back at the same place, even if they split with the Saints, sweep the Falcons, they’ll probably get sweep by the Panthers which puts the Bucs back at . 500. Next year schedule is again pretty rough with home games against the Eagles, the Redskins, the Browns, the 49ers and the Steelers. The Bucs OWN the Eagles since 2002 since they should win. The dumb Redskins always seem to win here, so that’s an L. The Browns should be a W and the Steelers, well, I’m not sure – I’d say L except Mike Glennon beat them on the road. For the 49ers I’m not sure what to except, the Bucs normally win at home versus them and get blown out on the road, so hopefully the home win stays in place. For the road you got the Giants, which should be a W hopefully, the Cowboys, which will be a L, the Ravens, which will be an L, the Bengals, which might be a W and finally the dumb Bears. Yeah everyone is going to say the Bucs should win that game, but when do the Bucs ever beat the Bears on the road? That will end up being an L and everyone will panic.
So lets see, with the split that is an 8-8 season. Yay!
January 9th, 2018 at 4:31 pm
You sonsabitches need to pay attention to detail. The Panthers just gave Ron Rivera a two year extension. meaning he’s covered for the next three years. That gives the HC some latitude in bringing in new staff, with an assurance of at least a two-year contract. Ya think Dirk can play that card?
So JBF. Maybe it’s one of ‘three’ things. You need to pay attention to detail yourself.
January 9th, 2018 at 4:38 pm
Well its simple. Shula has been the oc since 2013. He was instructed to construct an offense that didnt rely on the qb running so much the past two years and could not. If you want to compare an oc whos had 5 years to get it together to a dc whos only had 2 years and a dc all of you were applauding for being retained this past offseason, then go ahead. The move by the panthers does not show accountability. You are wrong joe. It shows they were patient and wanted consistency and thats why he was in that position for 5 years. You know the same patient and consistency the glazers are finally trying to show after the debacles of firing coaches every 2 years. Thank you panthers for showing this dumb fan base how it is done. Even when you do show us how its done, we still misinterpret. Only buc fans smdh
January 9th, 2018 at 4:50 pm
When my rep called me to renew season tickets, I told him I will wait and see the outcome of this off season i… coaching and culture changes that are obviously needed.
When they announced Dirk was coming back (not exactly rushing to pull our my credit card) and then Smitty was staying, that was the right 1-2 combination for me to hold off shelling out 4000+ this year.
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
January 9th, 2018 at 4:51 pm
It’s being reported that Norv Turner will be Carolinas new OC. Meanwhile the Bucs have Todd Munchkin. Is this for real?
January 9th, 2018 at 4:57 pm
rod
you say the titans only beat 1 playoff team all year but they made it to the playoffs and won their first playoff game….so the tougher schedule excuse is not valid….
by your assessment, with them playing in a weak division and only beating 1 playoff team they should’ve gotten blown out or embarrassed in their playoff appearance…..
turns out we were they embarrassment…..tougher schedule is not an excuse….so by your account, since you think next will be “tougher”, are you saying its ok to give the team a pass until we get a schedule like titans as you…..will it be acceptable to to finish 6-10 next year?…..NO MORE EXCUSES!!!!…..GO BUCS!!!!
January 9th, 2018 at 4:59 pm
Wow Norv Turner is still around?
Wait I went and looked it up and Norv Turner is still just 65 years young. That is amazing to me, it feels like he should be much older by this point.
January 9th, 2018 at 5:01 pm
Rod Munch Says:
January 9th, 2018 at 3:53 pm
You’re telling me schedule doesn’t matter and makes no difference? If the Bucs played a cupcake schedule like the teams in the AFC South….
WE WOULD STILL BE IN THE SELLAR WITH THIS COACHING STAFF!!!!….
-cant beat the titans…..
-cant beat the jags….
-cant beat the Texans with Watson….
-we’ll be in a dog fight with the colts….
GO BUCS!!!!!
January 9th, 2018 at 5:07 pm
Defense Rules Says:
January 9th, 2018 at 3:59 pm
813bucboi, you could’ve stopped after blaming lack of talent & injuries as REASONS for our 5-11 record.
EVERY TEAM HAS INJURIES!!!!!
do you think we’re more talented than the bears?(#8 pick)….or what about the jets? (5-11)….
so why are we picking before the bears and just after the jets?…..POOR COACHING!!!!!…..GO BUCS!!!!
January 9th, 2018 at 5:08 pm
813bucboi – Actually what it means is that if you play a cupcake schedule you can backdoor your way into the playoffs and since the NFL has one game playoffs any given team could win if the other one has an off day. Also yes, the Titans were getting blown out, but they were playing against the choke artist known as Alex Smith, otherwise they’d have been bounced. But hey, if the Titans can do it again this week, I’ll eat my own words. I’ll actually print them out and eat them.
Anywho pointing out things like schedules and wins/losses versus good teams and bad teams, you see, that is actually talking about winning and the hope that perhaps not everything is as doom and gloom as it seems. You see it’s a long offseason, and unless you want to go walking around like Emo Dirk, you have to find something to grip onto so there is something to look forward to. Also trash talking other teams is part of football, you see I like the Bucs, there is no 1A team, there is no backup, I want all the other teams to lose in the most miserable way possible since my team isn’t there, thus while I hate the fact the cupcake Titans made it into the playoffs, in the end I was happy to watch a bunch of dumb Chiefs fans crying as their home team blew the game.
January 9th, 2018 at 5:15 pm
813bucboi – The Bucs, again, lost just one game to a team under .500, that was on the road to the 7-9 Packers in OT on yet another defensive collapse. The Titans lost 5 games to team under .500. Got it, I know stats confuse you and make you angry, but see if you can follow them. Another stat, common opponents, the Bucs were 1-1 versus common opponents with the Titans who were 0-2.
You see fruitcake you use things like common opponents, schedule, victories versus playoff teams, etc etc etc to make an assumption of what would happen head to head, and those assumptions would tell you the Bucs, with the same cupcake schedule as the Titans, would have performed BETTER than the Titans did, and there is nothing in the stats, common opponents or anything else that would lead to any other opinion.
Now anywho say something boring and make sure you use all caps at the ending. Go.
January 9th, 2018 at 5:17 pm
The Tampa Bay Buccaneers leads the NFL in one category.
EXCUSES
January 9th, 2018 at 5:26 pm
Rod, some great points. And it may well be a push from a personnel standpoint. But consider 4 key areas for both years:
Sacks ………………… 2014: 36 ….. 2017: 22
Forced Fumbles…… 2014: 16 ….. 2017: 18
INTs………………….. 2014: 14 ….. 2017: 13
Passes Defended…. 2014: 66 ….. 2017: 56
The 2014 defense scored 3 TDs off of INTs/fumbles while the 2017 scored 4 TDs in those instances. So I guess it really is pretty close to a push, unless 14 more sacks and 10 more passes defended tips the balance slightly towards the 2014 group (i.e., more pressure from the DLine & perhaps somewhat better Secondary coverage).
January 9th, 2018 at 5:36 pm
@813bucboi … “EVERY TEAM HAS INJURIES!!!!!” You’re right, every team has injuries. But some have more injuries than others. And some have injuries to more starters and key players than others. And some have less depth to compensate for injuries to starters & key players. Look at what happened to the Packers after they lost Aaron Rodgers. It wasn’t pretty. Bucs did in fact have a lot of defensive starters beaten up for just about every game, and I’m sure that a lot of them were playing at much less than 100% in various games due to lack of any real depth to sub for them. Stats don’t reflect that kind of ‘stuff’.
January 9th, 2018 at 5:58 pm
Fnck the Bucs man I’m sick of this organization. Why the he’ll do I give a crap about a team that isn’t willing to make the tough calls and do what it takes to win?
This defense is going to suck balls AGAIN next season.
Thanks BUCS!!!!
January 9th, 2018 at 6:42 pm
Defense – I think the Bucs would do well to go back and look at the Jersey Trash ™ Schiano’s defense and realize that the Bucs actually do have a great edge rusher on the team, and that is Lavonte David. I get that David is great in coverage, but when you get no pressure at all on QBs, you have to mix it up some and David is a special guy who is only being used one way when he excels in multiple categories. With David out there rushing and perhaps Spence as well, the Bucs could get some pressure from the current guys on the roster. Obviously they must get more talent, a true 265+ lb 4-3 edge rusher, some corners, another safety, a young DT, etc etc etc. But as we know from all of history, pressure the QB and suddenly those pressing issues in the defensive backfield aren’t so pressing.
January 9th, 2018 at 6:43 pm
Let’s get Belichick, then you folks can run him out of town too.
January 9th, 2018 at 6:48 pm
Bucs idea of accountability is re-signing Martin after he screwed the team during a run at the playoffs in 2016, signing lazy ass Baker and giving millions to Sweezy for not playing the entire 2016 season. Sadly, no one has lit a fire under the GM.
January 9th, 2018 at 7:07 pm
Well said eric!!!!!! Post of the thread
January 9th, 2018 at 7:34 pm
To sum up, the Bucs have a bad team, bad coaching and bad ownership. In one word, the Bucs are bad.
January 9th, 2018 at 7:40 pm
Rod, Lavonte does fantastic in that role, but so does Beckwith. Personally would love to see Bucs transition to using a 3-4 much much more to get both of them on the field even more than they are now. Spence would also do better IMO as an OLB … more flexibility. Still it all gets back to the same issue though… the DLine (be it 3 or 4) has to be able to take on blocks, create holes/mismatches of one form or another & still create its’ own pressure for LB or Secondary blitzes to be truly effective … all while stuffing the run. It takes highly-talented DTs & DEs to pull that off for 60, 70 or more defensive snaps a game.
January 9th, 2018 at 9:24 pm
LOL
January 9th, 2018 at 9:33 pm
You guys are seriously talking about bringing Mike Shula back? The guy that basically cost Tony Dungy his job. When he was here everybody hated him.Now he is NFL gold. This has got to be a joke. Have you guys gotten this dejected as a fan base that you will grasp at anything? Good lord grow some nuts and quit crying. We will be alright.
January 9th, 2018 at 10:58 pm
Yes we are that dejected.
January 10th, 2018 at 12:31 am
Bring in Shula and Andrew Norwell with him.
January 10th, 2018 at 2:12 am
The most important part of this article is what Spence said…
Spence raved about his time spent with Simeon Rice because he said he never heard suggestions, ideas and concepts of how to get to the quarterback like he had from Rice.
—-
Just WOW…no accountability at all whatsoever..and we wonder why our guys have regressed???
January 10th, 2018 at 5:16 am
watch the panthers regress.
now what?
January 10th, 2018 at 9:06 am
Well first of all Joe, I believe you “giving them pass” is part of the no accountability here in Tampa. How are you going to say that they don’t have accountability (which they don’t, you’re absolutely right on that) but yet in the same breath say, “(Joe is willing to give a pass to the coaches because Noah Spence has been hurt, though it is very telling Spence raved about his time spent with Simeon Rice because he said he never heard suggestions, ideas and concepts of how to get to the quarterback like he had from Rice.)”.
You can’t have it both ways. All that being said, there is ZERO accountability at One Buc Place….NONE! The three stooges over there don’t know how to build a contending/championship team. Not to mention that they just don’t care about winning, it’s evident to me by their lack of action and continuous status quo. If they cared about winning or had high standards they would have done something to make this team, especially the defense, better. As much as I think that Koetter and all of his staff are tools, it all starts with the F@$KTARDS that own the team. Until they show me a genuine commitment to winning, I will continue to believe that. I mean as much as I dislike the Panthers, at least they show me that they have high standards when it comes to winning and want to improve on their already successful team.
I just shake my head at the Glazers, it’s like they purposely want the team to continue to lose. I just don’t understand their mentality……..IT”S QUITE F@#KING MADDENING!!!!!
January 10th, 2018 at 9:52 am
The Bucs need to make a move to get Mike Shula and Ken Dorsey on staff before Gruden finds a reason to snatch them up.
Mike Shula is a pretty good coach, and we also need a new QB coach.
January 10th, 2018 at 9:55 am
Mike Shula didn’t do great in Tampa…but he excelled after he left.
Just like Greg Olsen didn’t do well in Tampa, but did afterward.
People grow as the years pass. They get better at their jobs.
Hiring Mike Shula would be a great move. And lets face it, Todd Monken isn’t really a OC.
January 10th, 2018 at 9:57 am
Belicheat didn’t do well in his first HC job, but look at him now.
Dungy once said that his greatest regret in Tampa was that he had to fire Mike Shula, because he was better than people realized.
January 10th, 2018 at 9:59 am
pewterpirate99 Says
“All that being said, there is ZERO accountability at One Buc Place….NONE!”
Bull.
There is plenty accountability there. You just did not get your wish and have sour grapes. Not fired? There must not be accountability!
January 10th, 2018 at 11:08 am
Hallelujah… I alluded to the same thing a few days ago. The Packers didn’t make the playoffs for the first time in a decade..so changes must be made….the GM was “transferred”, a new one hired, the OC demoted and a new one hired, a new QB coach hired, and a new D hire in the works.
As you said…different teams definitely have different standards and expectations from their coaching staff.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:10 am
Bonsai…Joe has a definite point here. The expectations of management does vary greatly among team. I just gave you another example. Face it…much of the Ownership, GM, and coaching staff is substandard..and as long as the cash register rings, they basically don’t give a chit.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:12 am
Bonzai not plant Bonsai… should have spell checked…no slam intended.
January 10th, 2018 at 11:27 am
Buccaneer Bonzai Says:
January 10th, 2018 at 9:59 am
pewterpirate99 Says
“All that being said, there is ZERO accountability at One Buc Place….NONE!”
Bull.
There is plenty accountability there. You just did not get your wish and have sour grapes. Not fired? There must not be accountability!
Really, there’s accountability? WHERE??? The same inept coaches are still here, the same roster is still in place, there’s no change from a LOSING season……..where exactly is the accountability? As far as sour grapes…..about what, Gruden?? No, I’m pissed off because they’re doing NOTHING to make this team better. You don’t want to bring Jon back, so be it but what are they doing to address the total ineptitude of the current coaching staff and roster?? I see NOTHING being done by the F@#TARD owners. So again I ask you………WHERE THE F#$K is the accountability? So by your comment you’re telling me that you’re good with these coaches and good with the current roster and good with the way this year turned out, right?
I don’t understand why it’s perfectly ok for other teams, BETTER teams, to make changes to get better but we have to keep it status quo? I’m really starting to think that some of you goobers out there are related to some of these inept coaches/players. I just don’t understand SOME of your mentalities out there……you do want this team to get better right?
January 10th, 2018 at 7:36 pm
mark2001 Says:
January 10th, 2018 at 11:12 am
“Bonzai not plant Bonsai… should have spell checked…no slam intended.”
It’s spelled like that on purpose.
January 10th, 2018 at 7:40 pm
pewterpirate99 Says:
“The same inept coaches are still here, the same roster is still in place”
1 Playoffs are not even over yet…of course its the same players. Thet won’t start cutting until March.
2 And you just proved my point. Your definition of there not being accountability is that you didn’t get your way when they kept the coaches.
3 These are the same coaches that had a winning season last year.
4 This team was riddled with injuries this year, so of course it did not perform up to expectations. A man can’t run a marathon with a broken foot.
January 10th, 2018 at 7:43 pm
mark2001
Both Bonzai and Bonsai are correct.
Bonzai is the plant.
Bonsai was a hero.
I didn’t see that first post till now.