More Offensive Line Numbers
January 17th, 2017
Numbers tell deeper story.
Yesterday, Joe wrote how the Bucs’ offensive line was much-maligned during the season, unfairly so.
Despite some fans screaming bloody murder how the Cowboys had the greatest offensive line since a chin strap was invented, and the Bucs had a collection of five turnstiles up front, Joe noted the Bucs gave up only seven more sacks than the Cowboys.
Well, Joe was digging last night and you know what Joe found? The Cowboys’ front line really wasn’t any better than the Bucs. Yeah, Joe typed that!
The Cowboys attempted 483 passes and gave up 28 sacks. That’s one sack per 17.25 attempts. The Bucs? They attempted 578 passes last year — damn near 100 more! — and allowed 35 sacks. That’s a sack every 16.51 pass attempts.
Round off those two numbers, and it’s the same! Rounded off, both the Bucs and the Cowboys allowed a sack every 17 pass attempts.
So either the Cowboys offensive line is grossly overrated or Bucs fans need to find another scapegoat for the ills of the team.
Joe’s just going to go out on a limb here and suggest, one reason for the sacks — the Bucs were No. 17 in the NFL in sacks allowed — might just be Jameis had to hang in the pocket longer because the medical couriers the Bucs employed at wide receiver were unable to get any separation.
Just a wild hunch.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:11 am
Orrrrr Jameis made them look better by avoiding or just straight up shrugging people off that the oline let through. Why don’t you compare the number of pressures the two lines allowed. Or the amount of time JW vs Dak had to sit in the pocket instead of just finding one number that fits your obviously wrong argument.
You know, actually tell “the deeper story” instead of sticking to surface numbers.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:15 am
Judging an offensive line on sacks alone is hilarious, especially when they are responsible for run blocking as well. How many times did Jameis’s pocket presence prevent a sack? Isn’t this the same line that lead the league in run plays for lost yardage?
This is getting almost as silly as Joe pinning for the Bucs to draft Manziel or calling Vic Beasley a bust after one season
January 17th, 2017 at 9:17 am
And numbers on the running game would tell against the Bucs line.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:19 am
I gotta agree with tony on this one. There is way more to the story than just sack totals.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:29 am
Ok. I tried to avoid typing this but joe has no idea what he is talking about. You sound like that drunk uncle. I used to think it was just for entertainment when joe writes things like i’ll crack open a cold one in celebration. Now i realize from the constant singing the praises of this under performing oline that joe is a drunk. Mike glennon put up descent numbers but all the joes do is bash him. Now joe is using only sack numbers to validate how good the oline is. Its official…joe you need AA and fast.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:30 am
The Bucs o line is not as good as the Dallas o line at anything lol.
Avg time of snap to initial pressure would be a better indicator than sacks or pressures but not sure if they track that?
All I know is Winston has great pocket awareness. That was the biggest thing I noticed right away at fsu compared to EJ Manuel
January 17th, 2017 at 9:31 am
Bucs’ o-line haters also have to keep in mind what Dirk Koetter told the reporters in several press conferences. To paraphrase, we, those who aren’t privy to the actual Tampa Bay playbook, don’t know what was supposed to happen on any given play.
As an example, we don’t know how many times Jameis extended what should have been a quick slant that wasn’t there and the o-line actually gave him three seconds instead of the required and expected one or two. We also don’t know how many chips were missed and how many plays didn’t have a chip by a TE or RB built into its design. Any sort of meaningful analysis is impossible since we as fans and pundits don’t know what was supposed to happen and therefore can’t analyze it against what did happen.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:39 am
Good thing we have a head to head game to gauge. Which team controlled the LoS most of the game and when it mattered most on both sides? We need an upgrade at Center and RT.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:43 am
So what exactly is your point with all this defense of the Oline Joe?
Are you saying we don’t need to improve the talent level up front?
Are you saying that Licht should follow the Dominik method and not draft a single Oline player for the next 5 years?
Why are you trying so hard to convince your readers that the Bucs Oline was better in 2016 than what we all saw with our own eyes?
I just don’t get it.
Was the 2016 Oline as bad as the 2013 or 2014 Bucs Olines? No – of course not. I’m not even sure that’s possible.
Was the 2016 Oline as good as the 2015 Oline? NO!! Pass protection may have been at about the same level – perhaps even slightly improved (yet still not nearly good enough) – but the run blocking saw a BIG decline vs the 2015 unit.
Denying that obvious and statistically verifiable fact makes you look ridiculous.
So I ask again Joe. What exactly is your point with all this “Oline was better than everyone thought they saw” talk?
January 17th, 2017 at 9:43 am
Sorry Joe, initial comments seem to be overwhelming against your conclusion that “The Cowboys’ front line really wasn’t any better than the Bucs.” For good reason … but a myriad of folks detailed those yesterday. Never pummel a guy when he’s down. Oh wait, this is Bucs-land … my bad. Let the pummeling continue.
Hopefully Licht does focus on improving the OLine (and DLine) this year. Can have the fastest horse in the race, but if he can’t get out of the gate he’ll be irrelevant. The war is won in the trenches.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:43 am
@ rick
Thats true if there were break downs in protection here and there, but constant pressure is not jameis not throwing a quick slant. Jameis knows this playbook and i can bet my house that he did not constantly miss a slant. This line was horrible. How many drive killing penalties did our tackles have? Can you blame that on a quick slant? This line was hot garbage this year.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:50 am
You can’t argue Hawley’s small size was a detriment and Dotson/Cherilus wasn’t that good. The o-line isn’t bad but it still needs a piece to the puzzle at center
January 17th, 2017 at 9:54 am
I have to agree with Tampa Tony and Pickgrin here. The only thing I would like to add is it’s hard to evaluate the run blocking for this year’s team because Charles Sims liked to dance behind the line and because of Drug Martin’s poor play.
Still, I don’t understand the point of this article either. The team needs an upgrade over Donovan Smith and Demar Dotson in my opinion. I also think the team needs an upgrade at Center as well. I really believe the Bucs are on the cusp of doing something special. The Super Bowl team got away with one player on the o-line being terrible (Kenyatta Walker) but with two below average to poor players it’s not going to be good enough to win in the future.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:55 am
Again….what about hits and pressure on the qb….hits and pressue can cause just as many problems for a team as a sack
Also run game stats for a rookie in dallas vs vets in martin and rodgers. Rodgers was starting to slow down a but in those last 4 games.
O line still needs improvemwnt
January 17th, 2017 at 9:59 am
Line sucked. People see what they want to see.
January 17th, 2017 at 10:02 am
Teams with good offensive lines year in and year out draft at least one offensive lineman every year in the later rounds, or develop undrafted guys. The team trains and bulks them up for two years, give or take. If they haven’t made their mark by then, the team moves on (see N.E., Pgh.,Denver, etc.). I know that there are some exceptions to this method, as there are exceptions to everything. But Licht has now brought in Pamphile, Benenoch, Webster, etc. Pamphile is already a solid starter. Benenoch should heavily contribute this next season. Stay true to the plan Jason!
January 17th, 2017 at 10:05 am
Rick, if that’s the case, Koetter needs to throw away his playbook and we are in bigger trouble than we thought. My opinion is Dirk isn’t throwing anyone under the bus and is jumping on the grenade. Play calling was so vanilla and basic this year it made me wanna throw up every week. Maybe he was afraid of the personnel but that WR screen he ran was getting closer and closer to going the other way all year. The 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1 and goal line plays, uggghhhh!
January 17th, 2017 at 10:11 am
@ kevin
You made it all make sense to me. Joe is enamored with “sacks.” He doesnt understand the importance of hits on the qb or even hurries. Thats probably why joe does not understand why some fans get on mccoy for not hitting or pressuring qbs more. He always writes articles about mccoy having this many sacks compared to other d tackles but he never address the pressures or hits/disruption. Its all about sacks and nothing else to joe. You cleared that up for me.
January 17th, 2017 at 10:16 am
Thanks to the Joe’s for that insightful link! If you sort via QB hits, I think that tells the “deeper story” better than sacks.
QB hits – Bucs 5th worst in the league with 109. Cowboys 6th best in the league with 69
WHOOOPS!!!!
January 17th, 2017 at 10:20 am
@ leighroy
Winner!!!!!!!! No disrespect to you, but sane non drunk fans knew that even without that link.
January 17th, 2017 at 10:22 am
A backup off the street rushed for more than a yard per carry than our seven million dollar “stud”. Can you people explain that to me? How did that happen?
Did our Oline dislike Dougie? Did they love Quizz and decide to block for him but not Doug?
Cmon people…some of you are absurd with your negativity…I just give Dallas his normal discount for always placing his attention on the negative. Sometimes it get absurd…numbers and fact do not dissuade him.
I wish I could remember the poster who pointed it out because I like to give credit where it’s due…but someone here plugged in Quizz’s numbers to Doug’s rushing attempts and voila you have a 1000 yard running back and a top ten running game. How did that happen?
If the line sucked at run blocking why did a backup off the street run so effectively? You people are laying Doug’s Molly on the backs of the OL.
And for you #3 jock sniffers…I love #3 but he cannot walk on water…yet..who claim he actually saved the OL from having worse numbers…WTF are you watching. EVERYONE in the league including the Bucs themselves and #3 acknowledge he’s still young and tries to do too much and does not now when or perhaps more accurately simply cannot bring his competitive spirit to give up on a play.
Someone else also made a point similar to Joe’s suggestion. If our WR corps had been able to get separation #3 would not have been sacked so often.
Soooo it’s not going to happen…BUT…imagine of the Bucs signed Terrelle Pryor AND DeSean Jackson and drafted Dalvin and his electrifying explosiveness…do we suppose the OL would be better.
There is NO nuance on this board. An OL is only a strong as it’s weakest link.
This past year right tackle…especially with Gosder was freaking invisible. It doesn’t matter how Smith, Pamphile, Hawley and Marpet play if RT is totally invisible.
Nobody is saying our OL is the best in the league. I think what Joe is trying to say is stop throwing the baby out with the bath water!!! If Benenoch had been ready to play RT and not suffered all his injuries it could have been a different story. If we find ONE more good OL…if we had great WR’s and RB’s…our OL will be fine!
January 17th, 2017 at 10:23 am
How bout run block? We had that 100 yard runner twice all year
January 17th, 2017 at 10:32 am
@ st pete
Doing too much as in throwing the ball where he should’nt. You are confusing that with running for his life. There is a huge difference. Its called preservation.
January 17th, 2017 at 10:45 am
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics – Benjamin Disraeli /Mark Twain
January 17th, 2017 at 10:58 am
No confusion Webster….I’ve seen almost every QB in the league just turn and whale the ball OB when the play is not there. That is not YET in #3′ repertoire.
He was better last year than his rookie year and he’ll be better next but I can’t forget the number of times I was screaming at the TV…throw it away…throw it away!
January 17th, 2017 at 11:00 am
History Lesson for the Joes
In 1978, rookie Doug Williams got sacked 6 times with 194 passes. Doug missed several games that year due to a broken jaw. Do you know how the other 3 QBs that season fared? Mike Rae, Gary Huff and Mike Boryla threw a combined 159 passes, but got sacked 44 times in less than half a season!
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/tam/1978.htm
Is the Bucs line this season that bad? Of course not, but I have no doubt if Glennon or most other statue QBs in this league played behind that line, you could at least double or triple the amount of times Winston got sacked this year.
January 17th, 2017 at 11:02 am
3 not throwing it away has nothing to do with a jail break to the qb.
January 17th, 2017 at 11:10 am
Fyi….he cant just throw the ball away while he is in the pocket. It would be intentional grounding. If he is out of the pocket and you are screaming throw it away, it means his pocket broke down again like it did a lot. To his credit, he is good at creating eventhough his pocket has broken down. Thats an asset
January 17th, 2017 at 11:14 am
I don’t understand your reasoning. So the offensive line pass numbers were ok. The run numbers were garbage and nowhere near the Cowboys. Give it up that bucs and cowboys are the same . Seriously let it go
January 17th, 2017 at 11:17 am
Men lie women lie numbers never lie.
January 17th, 2017 at 11:31 am
@Nole- except when the numbers are massaged to fit a flawed narrative. I’m an actuarial it’s what we do
January 17th, 2017 at 11:31 am
I could care less either way. I saw a team decimated by injuries and mostly devoid of skilled players on offense. A team that lost some close games early on and still continued to improve. I’m so happy with the way they played this year and the arrow is definitely pointing up. What a bunch of whinebags we have complaining about the O Line, who know little about assignments as has been mentioned before. The Bucs have had plenty of bad O Lines over the last 10 years. We know what that looks like and this wasn’t it. Somebody please call these crybabies a Waambulance or throw them a pfd before they drown in their tears.
January 17th, 2017 at 11:40 am
Hey JBF you need to pick was it the oline that was bad or JW. I’m going to go with the oline. Becasue most bucs fans watched JW run around dodge,dip, dive, duck, and dodge defenders before he could get the ball off.
January 17th, 2017 at 11:45 am
@ bigmack
The assignment is simple which is block the man you are suppose to. They were below average at that this year. That is something to cry and whine about.
January 17th, 2017 at 12:02 pm
100% agree with the first comment.
Jameis is legitimately ELITE at avoiding pressure in the pocket. if he was sacked 35 times I have to assume the average QB would have been sacked 70 times.
January 17th, 2017 at 12:09 pm
St Pete – if you take out the 49ers game (which everyone ran on) then Rodgers was at 3.9 YPC with 103 carries vs 4.3 YPC on the year
Still better than Martin by about a yard lol but not great.
Cowboys rush offense averaged 4.8 YPC this year; and 4.6 YPC last year with a group of mediocre to bad RBs
Tampa was at 3.6 this year; and 4.8 last year
I agree with the line not being a HUGE problem as some have made it out to be. It was nothing like the 2014 line which was the worst thing I’ve seen. It was roughly the same group of guys that were able to lead the league in rushing yards per attempt the year before. You don’t do that with a bad line – Martin wasn’t THAT amazing.
I feel OK with the line because of the youth. If this was a veteran line then we’d need to blow some of it up imo; but I think we’re ok with most every starter except C/RT; and could probably just upgrade 1 and be fine. We just gotta keep taking at least 1 guy a draft and I’ll be happy.
January 17th, 2017 at 12:55 pm
Show me the comparison with rushes and hits. Jamies doesnt go down, thats why the sacks are lower than they should be. Our O-line is terrible!
January 17th, 2017 at 1:32 pm
Haha joe wont let it go. Keeps bringing up 1 stat like it is the tell all stat. Its getting pethtic joe. Find some new stats to back up your claim. Or is it that is the ONLY stat in favor of a DECENT o line. It’s not even a stat the bucs are a front runner in. Middle of the road. Het joe still claims it to be some awesome stat thatproves the o line is good. Get real joe.
January 17th, 2017 at 1:56 pm
Our o-line didn’t pass the smell test! Only a fool would try to equate the Bucs O-line with the Cowboys O-line in any way, shape, form or fashion!!That’s Ludicrous!!
January 17th, 2017 at 2:06 pm
LordC
Did you just say Zeke is an average running back. I suspect Jerry who picked him high in the first would disagree…some others might as well.
I’m not as enamored with him as the pundits but I do believe he’s far better than any back we’ve had on roster in recent years.
We all could argue all day about the “stats” and whether #3 brings any of these pressures upon himself but one thing is inescapable.
Again an OL like a chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link. To diminish the work of Smith, Pamphile, Hawley and Marpet because Dot had a poor year and Cherilus should be out the league is just not right. And it can lead to bad decisions like the caterwauling some are making here.
Imagine if we had ONE dominant RT…all of the sudden the line becomes stout.
Imagine if Sweezy comes back to his former self…all of the sudden we inject even more mean and nasty.
I agree with you LordC…I agree with the line not being a HUGE problem as some have made it out to be. It was nothing like the 2014 line which was the worst thing I’ve seen.
I concede there are still plenty of IFs…can Sweezy come back? Can Benenoch develop into a player if he’s healthy?
Somebody pointed out that great teams draft an OL every year in the draft.
Licht’s drafts…2OL…2OL…1OL. It’s not like he’s neglected the position or has made bad picks. As Lord C pointed out 2014’s line was the worst ever. Licht had to start from scratch and he’s had some success.
Smith and Marpet have started EVERY game…Pamphile a 5th round pick is working out and Benenoch another 5th rounder has fought injuries and so the verdict is still out.
January 17th, 2017 at 2:25 pm
This is lazy reporting. It’s embarrassing actually
January 17th, 2017 at 2:33 pm
Hah!^^^^
January 17th, 2017 at 3:23 pm
The Clownboys just shove people around in the run game. That’s the difference.
January 17th, 2017 at 6:37 pm
O-line sucked this year Joe, don’t fool yourself or try fooling us.
January 17th, 2017 at 9:12 pm
The powerful Cowboys trailed the Tampa Bay Bucs by 3 in the 4th Quarter.
Who did the massive O line push around?
The Green Bay Bucs took the Cowgirls to the woodshed until a moron Kick returner gives the ‘Boys three and a total change in momentum. Who did the Boys massive Oline push around in that game?
Hey they have a good OL…one of the best in the league…but they don’t walk on water and even a 9-7 team hung with them through 3 Quarters.
January 18th, 2017 at 10:28 am
Mark Twain said, “There are three types of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.” People have cherry-picked statistics to support their opinions for hundreds of years.
As @jwash3 and others have pointed out, rating an offensive line on one cherry-picked statistic, sacks allowed, is absolutely ridiculous. There are countless other statistics that need to be considered in evaluating an offensive line. Not only passing game statistics, but running game statistics as well, not to mention quality of opponent and QB/RB experience.
All most of need to do is apply the eye test. Watch the Bucs and then watch the Cowboys (or watch the Bucs vs Cowboys game) and then report which offensive line is better. It’s not even a close comparison.
January 29th, 2017 at 6:46 pm
Wow.
What a collection of the blind and the clueless.
Our Running game was sabotaged by Drug Martin. Just as it has been every year he didnt have money riding on it. He gave a half hearted effort all year.
Could we use an upgrade at RT. Yes.
If(IF!) J.R.Sweezy plays next year, – where does Kevin Pamphile go?
Right Tackle, obviously.
Smith and Marpet are growing nicely together.
So what we really need is a Center. We have two that arent bad- but we need a great one.
Sooo a Line of Smith, Sweezy, (NewGuy),Marpet, And Pamphile would be even better than this year’s line. Which wasnt bad.
But I am always in favor of Drafting Offensive and Defensive linemen- as football is won in the trenches
But our line is fine. What we are in need of is weapons for Jameis. He needs another Tight end, Two WRs, and A running back who isnt on drugs.
That is what will improve our sacks/Pressure numbers.