Bizarre O-Line Blame, Exaggeration
December 21st, 2016
Torched
Joe really doesn’t understand why all this sweeping blame of the Bucs’ offensive line keeps flowing.
And it reached a new level last night.
Rick Stroud of the Tampa Bay Times penned a piece fingering the line for what ails the Tampa Bay offense, the one that doesn’t resemble what the Bucs rolled out last year.
Stroud essentially declares himself captain of the O-line bashers.
“I’m not one to pin all our woes on the offensive line,” Bucs coach Dirk Koetter said Monday. “We all took turns.”
If Koetter won’t do it, the line forms here. Too often this Bucs offensive line has put up all the resistance of saloon doors.
Jameis Winston has done much of his best work scrambling. Even during the five-game winning streak that ended Sunday, Tampa Bay hasn’t been able to run the football or protect Winston.
Joe’s going to zero in on that last paragraph.
Heck, Joe was at Arrowhead Stadium in Kansas City. The beasts on the Chiefs’ D-line barely breathed on America’s Quarterback, Jameis Winston. No sacks and Jameis had a fantastic game. The Bucs even had some solid work running the ball there.
The following week, the vaunted Seattle defense didn’t sack Jameis. Pro Bowl DE Cliff Avril was completely neutralized by Donovan Smith.
Those are real-deal playoff teams the Bucs beat. So why is Stroud claiming the Bucs couldn’t even protect Jameis during their five-game winning streak? Jameis wasn’t exactly under siege in San Diego the next week, either.
Joe has written endlessly that the O-line is quite solid and talented, based on what else is out there across the NFL and outside of the Gosder Cherilus Experience of the past two games.
If Joe were typing a blame-game article on the offense, it would be about a running back, last year’s Bucs MVP, who is underwhelming but keeps getting the rock.
December 21st, 2016 at 8:35 am
Oline can’t run block save a few games earlier in the year against bad teams. Open your eyes.
December 21st, 2016 at 8:38 am
The offensive line has not been very good this season compared to last season. Jameis is still among the most hit QBs in the league and the rushing yards are down from last year.
December 21st, 2016 at 8:39 am
You’re right about the pass blocking Joe. The line has been excellent there, but the run blocking has been abysmal. How can Doug be a top five back in broken tackles with less 3 yards per carry? Terrible, terrible run blocking. There’s someone in the backfield in about 1 out of 4 running plays. This has nothing to do with Doug.
December 21st, 2016 at 8:39 am
I’m shocked that Stroud wrote a misinformed, hot-take piece. Seems so out of character for him.
December 21st, 2016 at 8:43 am
I don’t know Joe, and I won’t claim to, but my eyes tell me our Oline got their butts kicked on SNF. Dallas is ranked 28th overall against the pass, and tied for 17th in team sacks – not exactly Seahawks in their prime kinda numbers.
I thought Smith played well, but the right side of the line sucked and Jameis was running all night. Are my eyes wrong?
December 21st, 2016 at 8:48 am
@Harry – I obviously didn’t watch the rest of Dallas’ games, but the opportunities were there for us to fall right in line with making Dallas look like a team that deserved those kinds of defensive rankings. There were a number of balls that were either drops or just over-thrown by our guys. I’m sure that most teams didn’t have a back that likes to try to cut a rug before hitting the hole, so that would have helped our numbers. Plus, Jameis wasn’t under seige until Cherilus just tanked at the end of the game. It wasn’t a great pocket, I’ll give you that, but he had time to work until his right side just opened up the floodgates.
December 21st, 2016 at 8:49 am
Damn Joe you saw a good o-line on the field Sunday night. Elliot was bursting through canyon size holes and Dak was able to kick bag and causally go through his progressions. Jameis was getting immediate pressure from an undrafted DE and Martin was getting tackled behind the line of scrimmage. You really aren’t seeing this?
December 21st, 2016 at 8:55 am
Rick is correct and Joe is wrong
December 21st, 2016 at 8:59 am
Cam Robinson to the rescue!
December 21st, 2016 at 9:02 am
I can’t stand Stroud but he is correct in his analysis. Want more? Google “the Buccaneers run blocking is a bigger problem than martin” click the first article in the list.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:02 am
The line is average at pass blocking and absolutely terrible at run blocking. This line is not good enough.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:03 am
Joe…..we are both right…..Martin isn’t as effective and the Oline isn’t blocking as well…..
I’m not going to say that you are blind, but you obviously don’t see things the same way most of us do.
You are finding very little support for your argument that the Oline is fine.
All it takes is one weak spot and it seems we have at least one in most games.
There have been very few holes and the opponent sniffs out our plays in most games.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:04 am
1.Oline not performing well looks bad for ego-in-chief GM Jason Licht.
2.DELETED FOR REPETITIVE LIE
3.JBF doesn’t see any problem with how oline is performing. (Another lie. Joe has archives. Also, you & others refuse to look at O-lines across the NFL.)– Joe
December 21st, 2016 at 9:04 am
WAKE UP JOE!!
Martin, Simms, Rodgers, Barber … have all shown to be talented backs. This o-line has had three good run blocking games all year, two of them when Rodgers started. Other than that they have been pushed backwards half of the damn running place. Every time I see Martin hitting a hole, he gains 5 yards or more. The problem is, half the time, he’s getting the ball and having to make a move because the fenders are in the backfield. I do not understand how you do not see this.
They need a guard and a tackle. Maybe Sweezy gets healthy and is the answer. Maybe losing Mankins Hurt a lot because of playcalling on the line. Whatever it is, I bet anything free agency and the draft will bring a couple offense of line men and another defense of lineman or two.
Those things along with a legit number two receiver and one more DB will make them Super Bowl contenders
December 21st, 2016 at 9:10 am
Unfortunately the line is far worse with cherilous in.He and Brate both whiffed on a perfectly set up screen pass. Don’t believe I have ever seen that happen.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:13 am
My diagnosis is that Doctor Stroud has proprioception…hey, wait a minute…
December 21st, 2016 at 9:17 am
@Patrick,
I was not blaming all of our woes on the Oline, and I could have been more clear on that in my post. I think it is a combination. I think Martin sucks this year for some reason (but so does Sims – I don’t understand why Rogers doesn’t get more opportunities…). But the RT, whoever has been there this year, is either getting penalties or made to look foolish. Cowboys DE Irving had 2 sacks against Cherilus that made Irving look like (as Joe said) Julius Peppers in his prime.
How many sacks does Irving have thru 14 games this year? 3!
December 21st, 2016 at 9:21 am
@Harry – you’re absolutely right, and RT is definitely something that should be addressed this off season in the draft. If I had a say in it, I’d love to see us get someone who could supplant Smith at LT and we could move him to the RT spot. I think he’d be great there. Getting someone at LT who has similar skills as Smith, but a higher motor and sticks with plays a bit longer, would be ideal.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:21 am
RT is a big problem area, has been all year. I don’t know if Dotson and/or Cherilus are hurt, but if they are not, we need to address this position in the offseason in the worst way. Personally, I think the rest of the Oline is ok.
I still say the Bucs primary needs, in order, are DE, S and WR, or DE, WR and S, either order. In many games, our Dline looked better this year. But the Bucs goal needs to be to make our Dline better than the Dallas Oline. THAT is how you win championships
December 21st, 2016 at 9:24 am
Our Oline is hot garbage, for those wondering. We lead the league on “stuffs” behind the line of scrimmage, meaning Doug has a defender in his face before he even gets the ball, how’s this his fault? Our Oline is a major issue. I guess losing Mankins was a bigger issue than we thought.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:27 am
@Patrick,
Having a stud at LT would be awesome, but maybe a bit of a luxury. It is a matter of resources. If we spend a 1st round pick on a LT, then no monster DE (my preference), no 1st rd talent WR and no interception machine at S (others were calling for this when Conte was AWOL on the field – to me, those are bigger needs than LT.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:27 am
I think the OL woes is at least 70 pct of the problem. Emmitt Smith in his prime would struggle behind this line (except when we played the 49ers this season of course – Google “2016 49ers worst rushing defense in nfl history”)
And of course lack of speed in our WR/TE corps makes it easier for defenses to stack the line. And it doesn’t help that we run too much on first down, and the few times we do pass, we often go 5 wide in the backfield, telegraphing what we are going to do.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:28 am
You couldnt have possibly watched that game in Dallas and concluded that the o-line was anything better than a steaming wall of turd. In fact a steaming wall of turd might have given Jameis more than 2.5 seconds before getting pressured by a defense bringing only 4 undrafted nobodies. I do get your point Joe that Doug has not been very good at all and his lack of performance shouldn’t be blamed on the line but you need to recognize (and more importantly Licht needs to) the major flaws in this line right now. It’s got some great young pieces but it’s far from a finished product.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:28 am
O line has been average at worst. Our back up OT got man handled by a rising star the end of one game. If Jameis hits his open recievers and Dirk doesn’t call a run up the gut on every 1st down Sunday night then we win. Yes we need to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick and sign a reliable vet on the line but they are playing ok.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:28 am
Being forced to release ASJ due to his own actions,set the team back.In training camp they worked ASJ hard on blocking.Brate really needed the work on his blocking,and if he adds that ability to his arsenal,it will help blocking on right side.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:29 am
“…We lead the league on “stuffs” behind the line of scrimmage…”
That is a good point. We see this a lot I think. Can’t blame Douggie if he can’t even get out of the backfield, right? I did not see Elliot get tackled behind the line much on Sunday
December 21st, 2016 at 9:31 am
Pass pro – with Dotson in – is about average – not good – average.
Run blocking we are bottom 1/3 if not one of the worst. Only Denver comes to mind with a worse rush offense.
Kind of baffling considering we ran so well last year but there’s 2 things I’d note-
1 – last years schedule much easier
2 – we used a lot of heavy personnel to be able to run successfully – using Pamphile as a TE for example – so we had to scheme more to make it work. It’s not like the 5 lineman were dominating weekly
December 21st, 2016 at 9:34 am
Another day, another article full of excuses for the O line.
Joe enjoys the narrative that it is Doug Martin and Jason Licht to blame for the lack of offensive production. Joe neither enjoys nor places all blame there. –Joe
Which is asinine, as the whole offense is predicated upon an effective run game, coupled with play-action. We just saw what an elite line does for a ROOKIE running back, why keep up the narrative that this is Doug Martin’s fault?
December 21st, 2016 at 9:36 am
Zeke wouldn’t be a candidate for rookie of the year behind the Bucs line. Just saying.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:38 am
@rayjay1122 – good point. I’m pretty sure he leads the league by a wide margin in yards gained before being touched by the other team.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:40 am
Anybody who comes to this site knows the Joes are “you see what you get” type of football analysts who decry sites like PFF, and probably rightfully so. Statisticians are mortal enemies of the “see what you get” crowd but that is another argument for another day.
But Joes, here is my question – if you judge the effectiveness of something by their results, how do you explain the lack of production in the run, pretty much the entire year? By what metric or basis of judgement are you deciding that the O line is being unfairly judged? Really curious here.
Joe laid out one answer clearly in this post. Second, every running game is affected by the O-line, the back, and the playcaller. Joe puts most of the blame on the back in this run game. And Joe would go playcaller second. Others assign their blame in different orders. That’s ok.–Joe
December 21st, 2016 at 9:41 am
Enough is enough Joe. Is our o-line the worst in football? hell no. But did they have a terrible game this Sunday? hell yeah. I love Ali Marpet, I think D smith and Kevin Pamphile are solid. But Gosder Cherilus got absolutely roasted, and Joe Hawley had his fair share of ugly plays as well.
We get it, You don’t think the Line is as bad as people think, but there comes a time when you have to acknowledge an ugly performance and call a spade a spade. And the O-line’s performance on Sunday helped contribute to the loss.
Hello? Joe wrote all about the O-line woes on Sunday. In fact, Joe wrote all about the misery of Cherilus after the Saints game the previous week. And Joe wrote Monday about replacing Hawley. All in the archives here. –Joe
December 21st, 2016 at 9:44 am
@bucsfaninchina – I think the Joes have addressed that a number of times when they’ve suggested that Barber, Rodgers, and even Smith were running effectively behind that line. It’s the team’s insistence upon using Martin, when others are performing better, that is difficult for them, and me as well, to process. The line seems to magically figure it out when those other backs find their way in to the game.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:44 am
Just because jameis was not sacked does not mean the o line played well or protected well. It just means jameis did a great job of scrambling when his protection broke down or he did a good job of getting rid of the ball. Unfortunately joe looks at a stat sheet to make his determination on whether or not a player played well ie martin. Fortunately others use actual game film and they can see a o line that is performing at a below average level which leads to our running backs lack of productivity and jameis running for his life “every” game regardless of sack numbers. Its so obvious even stevie wonder can see it.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:47 am
the joes need to watch film LOL you guys are about to be the infowars/alex jones of bucs media
December 21st, 2016 at 9:47 am
@webster – what is it about the coverage that you find on this site that makes you think that the Joes simply look at a box score to determine how the team is playing? If anything, they’ve tried to detract from the stat mongers more than anyone.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:51 am
Shocking, an article bemoaning Doug Martin. What’s next – a story on how Jaboo has no weapons?
December 21st, 2016 at 9:52 am
Joe you remind me of Mr. Magoo, Please put on your glasses.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:53 am
This is not a championship quality line; maybe it’s a fringe playoff quality line. We need either better players or to get these guys to play better. No other way around it. I think we need 3 new guys T-C-T. Been saying it for years.
December 21st, 2016 at 9:57 am
We were dominant in trenches period. My eyes don’t lie. I watched that Dallas game 3 times already to be sure and yes the o line got smoked. Just watch Sean lee’s highlights. Lee was barely touched. Then when he was touched he just shred blockers like he dusting his shoulders off. Come on now. Film don’t loe
December 21st, 2016 at 10:08 am
And as others have pointed out in other threads, it also doesn’t help that we don’t have a true FB.
December 21st, 2016 at 10:09 am
Joe, you are litterally the only one that says this o-line is good. The only one. Name me one other expert that shares your opinion.
December 21st, 2016 at 10:18 am
I get that that Joe, but when you preface an article with the title “Bizzare O-line Blame, Exaggeration” it suggest’s that the blame the unit as a whole is getting, is unwarranted. I was merely sharing my opinion that some of the blame is certainly deserved.
December 21st, 2016 at 10:21 am
to think that any of our backs would produce on the right side with Cherilous
and an inexperienced blocking tight end is misguided.Rogers ran twice for zero yards.There is a reason that Pamphile was needed for running plays last year
and that was it was ineffective without him.Dot is a better pass blocker and
that should help.
December 21st, 2016 at 10:24 am
Also, Martin is having a REALLY bad year Joe, He’s kind of reverted back into the habit of putting his head down and trying to run people over, Not really using his vision as much to seek out a hole, hell I can count on one hand how many runs I’ve seen him bounce to the outside when the chance was there. So yeah Doug’s having a very rough yeah.
However, In nearly everygame Joe, there are plays when the ball is snapped, and Doug runs into immediate penetration and is taken down behind the line of scrimmage. I’d be interested to see how many Negative yardage plays Doug has been a part of this year, and how badly those plays skew is ypc average.
December 21st, 2016 at 10:30 am
Oline good.
Doug Martin bad.
Sincerely, JBF
December 21st, 2016 at 10:32 am
Tell me more about these repetitive lies you speak of? I am not lying about anything. Not all differences in perspective constitute lies.
December 21st, 2016 at 10:34 am
Run blocking is horrific. I mean HORRIFIC. There are NEVER any holes. RBs run into a wall on every play. How many explosive run plays have they had? One? Two? Pass pro has been decent until this week.
December 21st, 2016 at 10:39 am
I think sometimes Joe just wants to take a stand and defend it. Yes, the O line has played well at times, especially during the winning streak. I seem to recall us using 6 o linemen a few times as well. Problem we have is our depth is poor and that is being exposed now. Martin is being hit a lot before he even gets moving, the plays are getting blown up. Jacquizz makes sense to me as change of pace, he is quicker and harder to find once he hits the hole. We are going to have score more points than we did last game vs. the Saints.
I expect Brees to back to his old self Saturday, at home, coming off a big game. Lets see what we got. Go Bucs!
December 21st, 2016 at 10:44 am
A good o line can make a bad RB look good.
A bad o line can make a good RB look bad.
Can anyone deny this?
December 21st, 2016 at 10:46 am
I mean, you need only look at the other team to see what a really good oline looks like. We’re clearly not there. But, as far as lines go in the league right now, I don’t think we’re as bad as everyone is making us out to be.
December 21st, 2016 at 10:50 am
run blocking and pass blocking are below average….point blank…bottom line…plain and simple….
@bamarich….I agree..i would love cam robinson in the first round….move marpet to center….pamphile and sweezy at guard….instant upgrade…..GO BUCS!!!
December 21st, 2016 at 10:52 am
Like I said the other day, I want to see some expert slow-mo a play with a telestrator and demonstrate how Martin is primary to blame for getting stuffed for a loss or only getting 2-3 yards when it would have been a run for 10 or more yards. … Nobody says he is. But there are many more non-stuffed runs. One of many examples is the safety against New Orleans.–Joe
The ONLY running play I recall in the last 3 games where I’d put more of the blame on Martin was in the Saints game, when the Bucs called a sweep to the left side in the 4th quarter on second drown. He slipped and only gained 2 yards when he could have picked up the first down or possibly ripped a long one. I bet he was pressing because it was a rare opportunity he has been given to do so and he blew it. Other than that, the line has not given him anything to work with.
December 21st, 2016 at 10:57 am
The O-line doesn’t suck from position to position. There are components to work with. Pamphile, Marpet and Smith all are solid NFL players and will be. But lets not forget. Cherillus and Hawley were plucked off the street, late in their careers by my memory. Dotson has always been looked at as the guy that was just about to turn the corner, but wasn’t quite there. We can’t discount just how bad D. Smith was versus the Falcons and the Raiders. Also, we can’t look past how young these guys are. Marpet made a huge deal about the Rookie wall last year and he missed games. This year has been every snap by my recollection, he’s now in game 14. I’m not saying there is a second year wall but I’m not going to ignore it.
I want us in the worst way to win out and finish 10-6 but the NFC South is probably the most competitive division in NFL. My evidence, if the Bucs lose out, they couldl be last place again, with an 8-8 record. There are no patsies in the NFC South. Our schedule was much harder than last year. I’m thinking 9-7 is a big improvement that should be celebrated.
My biggest concern is a fan and media base that after an “historic” 5-1 six game streak that ended with a one score loss, on the road against the team with the best record in football, all of the sudden, the QB, the O-line, running backs, recievers, d-line and secondary all need to be upgraded. The only thing that is “ok” is the tight end (who isn’t a great run blocker) and our linebackers (who allowed the middle of the field to get picked apart, what was the longest pass from Prescott, 15 yards? must make him go downfield) Yes Kwon “Beasted” but he appeared to be out position more than a few times. Impossible for me to know and I don’t have privelege to the coaches so i just don’t know for sure.
Go Bucs, win next week, period. Take care of your business and let the chips fall.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:07 am
# sacks givein up by the Bucs in 2015 in 16 games – 27
# sacks givein up by the Bucs in 2016 thru 14 games – 30 (projects to 34 sacks)
# Oline holding penalties / yards lost for 2015 – 29 for 272 yards
# Oline holding penalties / yards lost for 14 games in 2016 – 40 penalties (projects to almost 46 penalties)
2016:
Smith 12, Dotson 11, Marpet 6, Hawley 5, Pamphile 2, Cherilus 3, Benenoch 1
Joe, not that I blame it all on the Oline, I think Martin is also having a down year. But these are good stats and they clearly point to an Oline that is not playing as good as last year. ’16 numbers project out to 46 sacks for the year compared to 29 for last year. Don’t see how you can defend the Oline like this when Jameis is obviously older and wiser. Oline either has injuries we do not know about, or they have regressed.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:08 am
Joe blames the running backs first, playcalling second, and the o-line last.
Cuz ya know, running backs should be able block for themselves and create their own holes to run through. Everyone knows that 😁
At least most fans are here aren’t so stubborn and can see what’s plain as day.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:14 am
Joe, the Saints safety was disaster before the ball was even snapped. Everyone watching the game knew the Saints were going to sell out on the run on the play, the announcers were jumping all over it. There was no hole, the play was doomed from the start. The Bucs should have thrown a quick play action pass.
The Ravens were in the same exact situation the next day on MNF vs. the Patriots. They also tried to run up the middle on first down and also were stuffed for a safety. Duh!
December 21st, 2016 at 11:15 am
Nobody says he is. But there are many more non-stuffed runs. One of many examples is the safety against New Orleans.–Joe
———————
You mean the play where Luke Stocker got run over in the end zone attempting to block then he held the defender leading to the safety? Yea that was all on the RB. Wow! Joe gotta give you credit when you’re in you’re ALL-IN.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:17 am
I think you have to differentiate blocking for passing and running. Pass blocking this unit has been consistently good. Run blocking on the other hand has been consistently bad outside of the 49er and panthers games.
The Joes blame Martin but when Jameis fumbles and turns the ball over based on pressure it’s the line not Jameis’s fault.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:20 am
Gencoimports… ABSOLUTELY… Been pounding this drum all year. a true stud blocking full back seems way more beneficial than a third QB or a 4th running back. Plus they are undervalued so you can find one that is a good run blocker and can catch the ball. I believe they thought they could develop that in Vitale but missed in that he didn’t like to block. We swung and missed with Joey Iosefa and last year we lost Javorskie Lane last year to that disgusting broken leg. This year it just appeared they felt Stocker could handle that. Its just not the same position.
My thing, don’t take the guy with a draft pick, the best FB’s are UFA’s because the fullback position is all but dead in college or pay a “huge free agent deal” with one that is established and you will be out 1.5 mil or less.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:20 am
We need talent on the o line. It’s not rocket science. Dotson being out does not help and not to mention the need for receivers. We are really close guys. I don’t know why anyone couldn’t see that.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:22 am
DB55, the safety you are referring to was in the Seahawks game and was not a running play.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:24 am
Good stats Harry.
Joe blames Martin & our RBs more for the run game suffering than the O-line; and that’s where everyone disagrees with him (or them).
Joe’s argument boils down to his personal opinion of our O-line versus the other O-lines in the league. He must think we have a top 16 O-line but I think we’re far from it.
You can go team by team and find a lot more talent on most O-lines in terms of high draft picks / established good lineman.
Hell PFF is wrong most times but they had us as a bottom 6 line going into this year; and that was assuming a healthy Sweezy. They had Seattle, the Broncos, and other bad O-lines ranked pretty appropriately right below us
December 21st, 2016 at 11:29 am
Defenses are playing up on us because outside of Evans on one side and Brate in the seam we have nothing to threaten them with deep. There simply is too much congestion too close to the line of scrimmage.
The part I will put blame on is Koetter’s insistence of bringing in an extra o-lineman every other play. That certainly is not helping with the issue above. Every time we run it is out of a goalline formation and every time we pass it is in a two TE set. Besides Evans, we have nothing but slot recievers, so use that to an advantage and spread the field.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:34 am
Joe, using the New Orleans safety play is probably the WORST play of the season you could use to prove your point. Chinese fire drills are executed better than the “blocking” was on that play.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:45 am
@Lord Cornelius,
Thank you. I have to admit I was a little surprised at the penalty #s. Those are a huge bump up from last year. Pretty hard to explain those away as someone else’s fault
December 21st, 2016 at 11:50 am
Maybe the fact that Koetter continues to feed the ball to Martin is indicative of where he places the blame. If he thought Martin no longer had juice, then you’d think we would see things switched up.
Bottom line is that the O-line is not opening up the kind of holes we see other backs around the league run through. I’d also suggest that, if JW3 did not have such incredible movement and pocket awareness, the sack numbers this season would be absolutely abysmal. Smith has put together some good games, but, for the most part, both tackles and the center position have been average performers at best and at times have been absolutely man handled. The Dallas game was perhaps the worst performance of the year, particularly when you consider the fourth quarter collapse at RT and the role the line played in the significant turnovers in the game. They deserve plenty of blame.
December 21st, 2016 at 11:53 am
Joe,
Gotta disagree with you here. You’re painting a nice picture but it’s filled with some empty truth. Weren’t both Seattle and KC playing without their best defensive lineman? Didn’t we put up 12 against that Seahawks team? Not really a lot to brag about there. And I’m not sure if you remember, but Joey Bosa made JW’s life miserable. That 2 pt conversion to Evans was made about 1/2 a second before Winston was sacked as Marpet (self admittedly on Bucs radio) missed a block – and he’s our best Olineman.
In order to wreak real havoc next year, the OL has to be the #1 priority this offseason, as the DL was last year!
All the best Joe
December 21st, 2016 at 12:02 pm
bculaw, you are absolutely correct, Imagine if Byron Leftwich were taken 7 step drops behind that line instead, we would either be in the hospital after being sacked 60 times this season.
December 21st, 2016 at 12:13 pm
@ patrick
The fact that they say jameis was not sacked as if that meant the line played well tells me they look at stats and not the film. The fact the bash martin for his lack of productivity and they do not acknowledge the fact he is constantly met in the backfield tells me they look at stats. I mean did you see the redzone play when doug was met by 2-3 defenders 4 yards in the backfield? That has happened constantly. Not acknowledging that and bashing martin for his yards per carry lends me to believe they purely look at stats. I hope this clarifies it for you patrick.
December 21st, 2016 at 12:18 pm
Joe really doesn’t understand why all this sweeping blame of the Bucs’ offensive line keeps flowing.
Because it doesn’t play well with your recent blame being heaped on Doug Martin
December 21st, 2016 at 12:19 pm
Anyone bring up predictable playcalling as well? There is no doubt that the defenses know what we are doing and when we are doing it. Can we please fake the run on 1st and goal and roll JW out? Just once, please!!! I mean seriously, throw out the “football book” and call games based on what you are seeing. I know Koetter is a first year head coach and I am confident he will correct this next year.
December 21st, 2016 at 12:20 pm
“Every time we run it is out of a goalline formation”
While I think we should run out of other formations that aren’t as obvious; we still run a lot of play action off of those goal line looking formations. And since we only have a few weapons it’s not like a 3rd or 4th WR really matters in that set.
To me that just shows that Koetter doesn’t trust the 5 guys we have to create holes on their own. Last year we had to use a lot of 6 O-lineman + TE sets to run as well.
#2 WR should be priority 1 on offense; but after that it’s a RT & a C imo. Def would take a o-lineman over a RB with a premium pick.
Right now my dream scenario for this team would be:
-sign a WR that can compete for the #2 or # 3 spot – Kamar Aiken / Kendall Wright / Andre Holmes
-sign a exploseive KR / gadget player – Cordarelle Patterson
-sign the best offensive lineman available -right now the market for Ts looks slim; but should be a decent G or C available – unless Sweezy gets healthy and we want to roll with him
-market for S looks weak. CB isn’t bad with potential of Trumaine Johnson or Stephon Gilmore being FAs. I’d take either and move VHIII to the slot if we had to; just so we know we have 2 corners in VHIII + a FA who can hold down those sposts for at least 4-5 years. Grimes is good but any day he may lose his game.
-sign a DE & DT – ideally a DE like JPP / Jabaal Sheard; and a DT like Dontarie Poe
If we did all of that then we can just go BPA on the draft between T / WR / DT / S
I’m more worried about our DTs than our DEs. We have more youth and potential there vs the DT position.
So do all those signings; then draft a WR /S / DT / OT with your first 4 picks in some order of BPA. Draft a RB late as well.
20 super bowls
TE market is kind of weak. Maybe Jermaine Gresham as a big bodied blocker guy who can catch; but i don’t really see any big names or anyone that great. I think we’re fine with Brate.
Sure some TEs are faster but in the end they would runt eh same routes and be seam options / short area options. ASJ was a freak and it’s not like he was taking a 5 yard pass for 40 yards. TEs never been big YAC people. Just size / boxing out is what matters for big catches and Brate does it well and keeps improving on it
I need to get back to work lol
December 21st, 2016 at 12:29 pm
I COMPLETELY disagree with Joe on this issue.
Look, I don’t believe the entire offensive line is bad. I certainly don’t blame all of the starters there.
But it is clear it still needs a player or two. Demar Dotson should have never gotten a contract like the one he got, because now we are stuck with him. He’s got injury issues and we always end up going to a backup who is subpar. I blame this one on Licht and his lack of free agent wisdom. He ALWAYS goes after injury-prone players, even if he knows they are that because they played with the Bucs!
Look at his resignings. Dotson. Prone to injury. Martin. Prone to injury. Stocker. Prone to injury. And, of course, that doesn’t even cover the injury prone WRs.
Licht does the same thing in looking for new free agents.
But as to the offensive line, it IS to blame. They played horrible in the last game (on the right side).
The OL coach needs to address what he can in practice. Licht needs to replace a guard and a right tackle.
I disagree that Hawley needs to go, as some are saying. At worst, I think bringing in competition is smart at center, and keeping Hawley around for very solid depth if he doesn’t start is smarter.
There is no way the offensive line does not get blamed for this last loss…but it can be addressed. Strength only comes from finding weakness.
As to the defensive line, which is slightly off topic, the Cowboys OL was holding like crazy in that game and got away with it. I saw it on almost every play.
December 21st, 2016 at 12:31 pm
And as to running…I’m fine with the “i” formation. I just wish we had a hard hitting FB to run with it too.
I’m of the opinion that throwing a lot of hard hitting weight at the defensive line in the first half will weaken them immensely, have them gasping for breath. That can only help the RB and QB throughout the game.
December 21st, 2016 at 12:32 pm
Our O line is currently bottom 3 team in the league when it comes to the % of runs where the RB is hit at or behind the line of scrimmage.
That’s absoluty terrible lol …
December 21st, 2016 at 12:41 pm
The lines were terrible Sunday night, both of them. Couldn’t block anybody, couldn’t stop anybody.
December 21st, 2016 at 12:43 pm
The title is really why people are reacting this way Joe. Criticizing the Bucs o-line is “bizarre?” After what has been happening as of late I don’t think anyone other than you would think it’s “bizarre” to blame them for poor play. Next thing you know more bizarre comments such as “Dallas has a good o-line” and “the Patriots have a decent QB” may follow.
December 21st, 2016 at 1:09 pm
Seriously – even to Joe – that has to be a damning statistic for this line.
Bottom 3 team when it comes to where the RB is first getting hit. We were top 13 last year.
There is no way to say that stat is taken out of context. It’s compared to every other team in the league; and there is no run play designed for the running back to get hit at the line of scrimmage or behind it. That isn’t on the RB whatsoever.
Martin has still not been that great regardless; but us all having issue with the production of the line is incredibly rational and far from “bizare”. Eye test, stats, production, whatever – all paint a picture of one of the worst run blocking units in the NFL; and an average at best pass blocking unit.
Also Jameis was under siege a lot vs San Diego in my opinion. We’re just lucky he has the pocket presence he does. MG would have taken 2X the sacks this season.
December 21st, 2016 at 1:11 pm
Joe spends too much time watching the box scores and not enough time watching the game. Clearly this o line is not playing as well as last season. Neither is martin for that fact. But if the o line was blocking Like Joe claims they are. Any rb could run behind them. Doug martin might not be his old self, ut he isnt paralyzed and blind. He is capable of still being a good RB, but the o line needs to pick up some of the slack.
December 21st, 2016 at 1:24 pm
@ lord,
We did not need that stat to know the bucs oline has played horribly this year. We had eye balls and film for that, but i do this help the joes drop the narrative that it is somehow martin’s fault.
December 21st, 2016 at 1:33 pm
This is a fact-free zone. No observable reality permitted, especially if it might make ego-in-chief and [CENSORED] GM look bad.
Funny how Joe wagged a finger at the GM for his receiving corps this morning and about 100 other times this year. Carry on. –Joe
December 21st, 2016 at 1:52 pm
So we are allowing a narrow ray of observable reality into the fact-free and GM protection zone so some semblance of legitimacy can be claimed. That’s cute!
December 21st, 2016 at 2:02 pm
“Funny how Joe wagged a finger at the GM for his receiving corps this morning and about 100 other times this year. Carry on. –Joe”
For sure. Any theory about Joe not criticizing the O-line because of ties to Jason Light is absurd. Joe’ has criticized a lot of Light moves and begged for moves to be made that weren’t made.
I think the transformation in o-line production from 2014 to 2015 is the basis for any bias joe may have. The line was pretty solid in 2015 and potentially the MVP of the offense – but even that year they weren’t a top 10 blocking unit or anything that special.
December 21st, 2016 at 2:28 pm
LOL – Now there’s a headline guaranteed to get 100+ comments… Nice work gents.
The Oline is visibly and obviously less effective at run blocking this year compared to 2015. It is perhaps a smidgin better at pass protection. On the whole – a regression from what we saw last year. But there is young talent in place so thats the important factor moving forward. Keep adding Jason – your job of finding “A” level talent across the board up front to protect the franchise QB is not nearly done.
We need upgrades quickly at Center and Rt Tackle. Should Marpet be moved to Center with Sweezy at RG and Pamphile at LG? Left Tackle needs improvement as well. The big Question is – can Donovan Smith grow into that stud LT or is he better suited to move to RT and find a different answer at LT?
Hope the current crew can pull it together and play strong to finish the year. We need Dotson back on the field for sure – although I hope his job next year is swing back-up Tackle due to upgrades.
December 21st, 2016 at 5:28 pm
It is the offensive line. Brad, Rogers, Drew, and Dak have lots of time to through the ball. Jamies is always on the run. Look at that touchdown pass to Brate against Heiferboys. In the pocket laser to Brate for a touchdown. One second longer and the entire offensive line would have been in Jamies’s lap.
December 21st, 2016 at 5:46 pm
A huge factor in the O-line struggle as it relates to the run game and passing game is that defenses know when the Bucs will run or pass.
December 21st, 2016 at 5:52 pm
There are other Bucs sites that have articles that, you know, actually go over the stats in a detailed manner, and they clearly show that the Bucs o-line is abysmal at run blocking this year. The stats back it up, and the eye test also backs it up.
Anyone who disagrees that the o-line is playing poorly is clearly in denial.
December 21st, 2016 at 8:31 pm
there are some articles – buc nation broke down offensive line running downs & did not do so well. I can see that Douggie is getting 8-9in the box on first down runs and is in the top 5 in making miss tackles
December 21st, 2016 at 9:00 pm
Those stats from football outsiders, I’ve been trying to show the Joes for weeks. But they refuse to believe it.
31st of 32 teams in Power runs (runs of less than 2 yards on 3rd down, 4th down, and goal line situations)
T-30th of 32 teams for the most runs stuffed at or behind the LOS on any down.
But it’s Martin’s fault, definitely not the o-line or play calling. Duh.
December 22nd, 2016 at 11:24 am
blame is on licht passed on laremy tunsil