Licht Painted Himself Into Corner
March 9th, 2016
Boxed in.
Look, Joe really loves what Bucs AC/DC-loving general manager Jason Licht does with the draft. And Joe understands his philosophy.
Right now, if you believe Adam Schefter, the talks between the Bucs and Doug Martin’s agent are at an impasse because, again, per Schefter, the two sides cannot find a breakthrough. It didn’t have to be this way.
Licht had other options in case these talks broke down. He could have gotten Lamar Miller. He could possibly have gotten Chris Ivory. To do so, he would have had to open Team Glazer’s vault.
Joe is tired of folks saying Martin or another player is “overpriced” or the salary is too high. If a player produces, he’s earning his salary, no matter the number of zeros on the check.
When exactly do NFL salaries decrease? They don’t. What may seem like a lot now in two years will be an average price if not a bargain. So, yeah, the Jags may have overspent for Ivory. Guess what? That is the new norm now. Crying about it gets one nowhere.
So by not getting Miller or Ivory, Licht has painted himself into a corner. He has to pay Martin if he wants him. It didn’t have to be that way.
For the folks who mocked Joe for advocating franchise tagging Martin, that price and that option doesn’t seem so silly now, does it?
Oh, and for the “salaries are too high” crowd, how did saving a few million dollars work out with Darrelle Revis?
March 9th, 2016 at 12:33 pm
Yes 11.8 million for above average but no where near elite RB still seems silly and no clue why you think otherwise. In order for the Bucs to have a chance at signing another player, doesnt that player have to actually visit us first and WANT to sign with us?… you act like just throwing tons of money at players is all that is required to get them to sign. Free Agency really brings out the crazy in people.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:35 pm
C’Mon Jason!!! Bitwe the freaking bullet and pay the guy! It’s not like you can’t afford it, or the Glazers will fire you. Have they put you up to this? If so, this team is screwed, blewed, and tattooed.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:35 pm
Couch…Ivory’s getting 13 for 2 years, but then again that’s the bumbling Jags.
Not saying we’re not the bumbling Bucs though.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:35 pm
I’m fairly certain Joe doesn’t play Madden yet treating free agency exactly like Madden.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:36 pm
…and more holes added!….LG gone, SLB & depth gone…Conte, S.Moore and MARTIN hanging in the balance….too many spots to replace, this isn’t starting out good…hope tomorrow cures everything…
March 9th, 2016 at 12:38 pm
Based on that premise, Vincent Jackson should be cut.
Prove-it contract are wonderful things. And if a guy produces, who cares about his salary? Geez. Production = earning your pay.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:38 pm
The Jags bumped up Martin’s asking price. To me that’s what the hold up is.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:39 pm
Not really. Pamphile will start. That was Bucs’ plans all offseason if Mankins retired.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:40 pm
To the best of Joe’s knowledge, never have.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:41 pm
Just read the bucs are about to offer Oliver Vernon 100 mil.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:44 pm
Yes 11.8 million for above average but no where near elite RB still seems silly and no clue why you think otherwise.
Based on that premise, Vincent Jackson should be cut.
Prove-it contract are wonderful things. And if a guy produces, who cares about his salary? Geez. Production = earning your pay.
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Not sure how you can compare a veterean WR who has been a 1000 yard receiver ever since he’s been here(except last year) to an injury prone RB thats only has 2 good years on his resume along with 2 really bad ones. Not to mention V-jax is a incredible mentor for our younger receivers along with how important he is to our young QB. Who is Martin mentoring? You could make a case that losing Martin would hurt Jameis, but no where near as much as V-Jax. Along with the fact the WR position is much more important than A RB and you can see how V-jax is well worth is contract. 11.8 For Martin? Not so much.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:45 pm
I say Martin signs for 8 mil per season for 4 years. It’s the guaranteed money I’m stuck on. I say he’s a Buc by 4.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:46 pm
I’d prefer a 3 year deal though…
March 9th, 2016 at 12:47 pm
Licht gambled and loss, now it’s time to pay the piper. Either pay now or possibly pay later with his job if some of these moves blow up.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:48 pm
If we kept Revis, we wouldn’t have Jameis. I’m fine with that.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:49 pm
The FA bell hasn’t officially rung and y’all are LOSING your minds…..settle down! So much can happen over the course of the next several days. How many years have we been through this? Come on.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:49 pm
$11.8 is still silly……wait and see the deal…..and if no deal…..so be it.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:50 pm
Sign Marin RB
Sign Vernon DE
Sign Swartz RT
Sign Chandler OG
Sign Gibson S
Sign Bruce Carter OLB
Draft Hargreaves or Rankins
Draft BPA 2-7 (DT/DE/CB/S/OLB/WR/OG)
Keeping the dream alive lol
March 9th, 2016 at 12:51 pm
Chris Ivory isn’t going to do much this year. They way overpaid for him.
Really, Martin doesn’t deserve 7-8 mil either. But he’ll get it.
I still say resigning Martin is a risk. They should put all their efforts into getting other players. Bring in Forte if he is still out there.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:51 pm
Price is probably 7.5 now. Get it done and probably will
March 9th, 2016 at 12:53 pm
Licht comes off as scared to make a mistake. Dude needs to improve this team or the losses will pile up and he will be begging the Pats for a job
March 9th, 2016 at 12:54 pm
Great…… This is the Buccaneer way- don’t go after big time fA’s and let ours walk. Unreal, just more roll players and no improvement UGH!! I really thought with Licht and Dirk with DC Smith that we were gonna finally get serious and get some dudes in here who can play and make a big difference. This must be ownership what else could it be????
March 9th, 2016 at 12:54 pm
Still no, Joe. You can get a slow RB who gets caught from behind anywhere.
March 9th, 2016 at 12:58 pm
Yeah, Joe, tagging Martin still looks like it would’ve been silly. He might get 8 million, but you wanna fork over 3.8 million more? No.
If the Bucs and Martin have gotten this close, I gotta believe they’re not gonna let him go, unless somebody else comes in with an offer that blows the whole thing up, which probably would’ve happened already.
And if they let him walk, I have to believe they have very legitimate concerns about his injury history, the wear and tear, and his underwhelming performance in 13-14. The Commish had a list of the 5 biggest potential busts out of free agency this year, and he put Doug Martin on it. Paying him big money is a lot more risky than people want to admit… And suppose he comes back and he’s not contract-year fit and he’s less effective… How much kvetching and finger pointing at Licht and anger at the whole organization will there be? If they end up eating 10 million in guarantees, they get the dunce cap.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:00 pm
@ Lord..That would work for me!
Love this kid Hargreaves…I would give up one year of not shopping at Sephora to get this kid..
March 9th, 2016 at 1:01 pm
I agree with Joe that the money shouldn’t matter – every year the bar goes up. I still don’t see a reason to way over pay the RB position. If Licht decides to pay him then fine, but I am not ready to say if we don’t here comes a 4 and 12 season and Winston will take a step backward in his growth. Why haven’t other teams opened their vaults? Teams are going after Murray, Ivory, and Miller – again I like D. Martin but his skill set is limited – now that Lovie is gone I am fine with giving Licht a chance to do his job.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:04 pm
Joe Still clinging to the foolish notion that the Bucs should have franchised Martin – SMH.
You don’t pay a guy almost twice what he’s worth just because you have the salary cap room and would like to keep him.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:07 pm
I’m in complete agreement with you Couch Fan. If 11.8 million is the price to franchise tag Martin to keep him then no way, you don’t do that. As you stated, free agency is a two way street. The player has to want to play here or at least want the organization’s money. Evidently Charles Johnson wanted neither. What’s that tell you?
I never believed the Bucs were going to be major players in free agency this season. Most of the players who the Bucs were targeting in free agency have been in the NFL long enough to see the instability of the organization starting all the way at the top.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:07 pm
Still don’t understand how people are already losing their minds over free agency when it hasn’t even officially started. It’s so easy to get Bucs fans all cranked up with rage, despair, irrational assumptions, catastrophic thinking. Mental health is not a hallmark of Bucs fans. Just in case, keep it on speed dial =>
https://www.crisiscenter.com/what-we-do/suicide-prevention-services/
March 9th, 2016 at 1:08 pm
RB Doug Martin – or RB Matt Forte on a one year deal
WR Jermaine Kearse
WR Roddy White
RT Mitchell Schwartz, throw the bank at
CB Casey Hayward
DE Olivier Vernon
May not be an option. He’s going to want $15m per year, which would make him the biggest free agent. Would it be better to fill other roles and draft 2 DEs?
March 9th, 2016 at 1:11 pm
Funny thing, if we sign Verner, we win free agency, got the top young DE on the market, it’ll take close to a $100 million to get him, then all us, yes me included, will bow down to Licht, and shout to the heavens that we are on the way to a great season, then 5-11 happens (brutal 2016 schedule) and we do it all over again, gotta love being a Bucs fan
March 9th, 2016 at 1:12 pm
Martin will be a waste of cash unless he takes a hometown discount. We could easily replace him with Ivory or Lamar Miller with Sims supplementing. No reason to overpay him because he had a great year before he hit the market. RB is THE plug and play position in the NFL.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:14 pm
Why did you think this? Was it because of all the positive articles and comments on how awesome Dirk is going to be?
Of course it’s ownership. The Buccaneers are 58-102 over the past 10 years. They are not committed to winning no matter what they say.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:19 pm
Gonna look back on it and say Winston’s best years were wasted because incompetent Jason Licht didn’t put talent around him to win.
Fool.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:20 pm
meat…. Ivory is a Jag now.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:20 pm
This just in…. The reason Martin has not agreed to terms yet is because the Bucs want ownership rights of his nick name… Dougie is ticked off because he missed the train…
March 9th, 2016 at 1:21 pm
Insanity! I love how people act like the Buc’s cap money belongs to them. “How do you justify? Franchise tag (say like “playoffs?!”)? Give him X amount …”
First off, have we learned anything?! 2 years ago we spent, spent, and spent. How’d that work out? Exactly! Spending does NOT=success.
And please stop it people, it’s NOT YOUR MONEY! Stop freaking out. Maybe, just maybe, this regime has a plan.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:23 pm
Forte wanst to join New England and they want him..that’s pretty much it..
March 9th, 2016 at 1:23 pm
@D-Rome- Can I get an amen!
There’s a lot of trust being given to unknown commodities.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:25 pm
I also remember Forte stating he wanted to join a Super Bowl caliber team. Not sure if we are quite their yet..< sarcasm reeks on that statement..
March 9th, 2016 at 1:27 pm
Salishseamonster….you don’t understand how we as fans get upset and get irrational assumptions, etc….if you’re a real Bucs fan, no answer is needed, but since you asked I’ll simply say “58-102” (Bucs record last 10 years), we’ve seen this story way too often, sorry if its annoying that Bucs fans are upset,but true fans are still here complaining, hoping for better tomorrow’s
March 9th, 2016 at 1:28 pm
Amen Guzzie…
March 9th, 2016 at 1:28 pm
Take it easy Joe’ it’s gonna sort itself, these issues will work themselves out.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:28 pm
By the Jags overpaying Chris Ivory that drove up the price for Doug Martin. If you think about it that makes a lot of sense for Martin and his agent to hold out until they get what they want. Their logic could be this simple, “Ivory just got about $6 million a year from Jacksonville. I was 2nd in rushing yards last year and an All Pro so I definitely think I should get at least $7-8 million a year if Ivory is getting that kind of money”. So I guess we can thank Jacksonville for overpaying a RB to drive up the price for the market. On top of that Lamar Miller is reportedly nearing a deal with the Texans so now that’s even more leverage for Martin’s corner because now they probably know that if we don’t resign him and offer more money, he could just go to the highest bidder if it’s not us since 2 of the top 4-5 backs are off the market.
But we can’t blame Jacksonville because with all their cap they’re bond to overpay guys. Especially since they’re not a team that’s had great success in a while so overpaying free agents are probably a way to ensure that they can be competitive in the market. They know that the majority of the younger free agents want to cash in and they’re not as concerned with winning because they know they’ll have at least one more contract left during their career. So I can’t really blame them for throwing money at Ivory. But, this does tie our hands a little because the Raiders are eyeing Martin and they have a ton of money left still to spend.
Whatever the Bucs set their price at I just hope they stick to it. That’s the best they can do at this point because now with Olivier Vernon on the market you better believe we’ll be overpaying if we want any chance at landing him. Hopefully this all works out if not I guess we’ll just have to draft a RB. It would suck because we already have so many holes to fill as is. I’m just praying whoever Licht signs that he finally gets it right in free agency.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:32 pm
Guzzie-
I’ve been a Bucs fan for 38 years. Being able to complain and kvetch and catastrophize doesn’t make you more of a fan. I see no reason to panic over anything that has been reported about free agency in the last 72 hours. A little perspective perhaps might be helpful.
https://www.crisiscenter.com/what-we-do/suicide-prevention-services/
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March 9th, 2016 at 1:33 pm
I agree. Compaining when there is actually something to complain about is fine. But complaining before makes no sense unless you already have a narrative that you are trying to push…
March 9th, 2016 at 1:40 pm
The idea that we ‘have money to spend’ is ridiculous. Spending money because you have it is what separates the rich from the poor (among a few other things). Having a lot of cap room is not a free pass to spend it inefficiently, although some teams do. The Bucs have a figure in mind for Martin given the role they want him to play (which based on the performance of Simms is probably less than last year). This isn’t about what Martin is, rather, what the Bucs want from him. Doug wants full time work, but the Bucs only have a part time opening. That’s the deal.
Consider Licht comes from the Belichek tree, now consider the outrageous number of good players the Pats have let walk. Over-paying for good players is still over-paying, and it will cost you down the line even if it’s hard to see now. Todays Jags look a lot like the Dolphins did a few years ago, don’t they? Everybody knows they’re over-paying, yet somehow want to believe it’ll work out.
March 9th, 2016 at 1:41 pm
Also Guzzie, I can guarantee I know Bucs history better than 90% of people who call themselves Bucs fans, and I used to suffer and sweat all these rumors and all these moves not made, players not signed, as if I knew better than the people calling the shots. I used to lament losses for days. So, I know all about the suffering Bucs fan syndrome. Complaining does not help. There’s a lot of reason for hope with this organization right now. We have a good GM. We have a QB. I believe we’re on a good path, and I don’t pretend to know better than the people in charge. Why complain and worry when Free Agency hasn’t even officially started yet!
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March 9th, 2016 at 2:05 pm
Had the Bucs made aggressive gestures at martin right after the season ended, we would not be in this sorry predicament right now. Serves us right!So much for the..genius of Licht. Now Martins price has skyrocketed. And you cannot blame him one iota. If Licht keeps dragging his foot, Watch the Raiders or some other team steal Martin right from under us. Opps..this just in..Titans just released 2 bargain basement has beens. Bucs are in negoiations with them!
March 9th, 2016 at 2:06 pm
Salishseamonster….38 years respect….yes the sky hasn’t fallen, and although most top tier FA are gone, we have no choice but to hope for the best, that being said, we are gonna be stuck picking and paying 2nd tier FA like Collins both johnsons mcclown verner conte major wright tmcdaniel melton Bruce carter, not the type of players that improve a 6-10 team
March 9th, 2016 at 2:10 pm
Peter King @SI_PeterKing tweeted:
Reminder to the panic-stricken that your team’s not doing mega-deals today: Lots more bad deals than good get signed on Free Agency day 1.
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Exactly my point.
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March 9th, 2016 at 2:11 pm
Folks need to realize that we either overspend on guys now or we’re gonna miss the boat and be where the Raiders and Jaguars are right now where they’re basically FORCED to spend $15 million a year on average players. I’d rather overspend on OUR guy…than roll the dice with a guy you aren’t familiar with.
March 9th, 2016 at 2:11 pm
Simeon rice Vincent Jackson and Carl Evans are the only top tier FA I can think of in past like forever, please correct me if I’m wrong, I’d say Michael Johnson was borderline top tier (at the time), Keyshawn and revis were traded, REALLY that’s pretty sad
March 9th, 2016 at 2:16 pm
Guzzie Says:
March 9th, 2016 at 2:06 pm
And this is where my point kicks in. That statement is so far from the truth. That’s looney-bin kinda stuff. Perspective is a wonderful thing. There’s plenty out there. Maybe only one game-changing pass rusher, but there are plenty of guys available who can help this team. If rumors are correct, the Bucs are talking to 2 different potential OL starters. Upgrades. Perception vs. Reality. Cloudy, irrational, catastrophic thinking vs. what’s actually happening.
Exactly.
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March 9th, 2016 at 2:21 pm
Relax the professionals know more than you!
Excellent points Bill! Notice the teams that are ultra-active in free agency are not usually on the list of the most improved. I believe that the Bucs front office with the improved coaching staff will put a much better product on the field. They have a good plan…so relax.
March 9th, 2016 at 2:28 pm
Joe, again, most championship contending don’t have heavy money tied-up into a running back. Remember, when Bell went down for the Steelers? Arguably the top running back in the league…..An old DeAngelo Williams stepped in did just fine under one of the best offensive lines…but then he went down. Fitzgerald Toussaint then stepped in during the stretch run and did an adequate job.
I’d im ok with paying in the seven range for Martin…but 8-9-10-11 (franchise money) no way.
March 9th, 2016 at 2:29 pm
Salishseamonster….not sure what other top tier FAs are left, Chris long Robert ayers William Hayes pacman jones Mohammed sanu, not exactly franchise altering players, there are a few good lineman I’d be excited about, please don’t include Tim brown, sorry I mean roddy white…..sorry monster but no Verner we can pretty much kiss this years Bucs FA class as meh, coaching and a huge leap in performance from 3 is our only hope, cause this draft isn’t going fix many holes this year, we are staring down the barrel of a pretty sucky season, but you already know that you’ve been playing this game for 38 years lol hey dougs back whatever
March 9th, 2016 at 2:31 pm
Bucs signed Martin. Five year deal worth $35 million according to Adam Schefter.
It would have been moronic to place the franchise tag on him if the Bucs thought they could get this deal done.
March 9th, 2016 at 2:35 pm
5 years, $35 million. yeah, idiot for not going the franchise route. licht knows more about the status of talks than any reporter or fan, i don’t think doug walking over pay was ever a risk. doug needed a baseline, he got it, and we made a fair offer, apparently
March 9th, 2016 at 2:43 pm
Guzzie-
You expect too much from free agency. You want a franchise altering player? Good luck. You’ll vastly overpay, and there’s a very high bust rate.
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Peter King @SI_PeterKing tweeted:
Reminder to the panic-stricken that your team’s not doing mega-deals today: Lots more bad deals than good get signed on Free Agency day 1.
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I’m happy with getting a few solid starters in free agency, and we have our sights set on some decent young O-linemen. There is still plenty of quality out there.
You wanna swing for the fences, you’ll end up with a low batting percentage.
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March 9th, 2016 at 3:47 pm
Franchise tag was always a dumb idea. The bucs were always going to sign martin. Martin wanted to be here. It just came down to who was going to blink first when it came to the money. Obviously we had the time to negotiate and licht was negotiating with a willing partner. It doesnt sound like things ever got heated or disrespectful during the negotiations. Doug was always our guy. No use in ralking to ivory or miller. We wanted the best guy available and that is Doug. I was never really worried. I was irked that he wasnt signed months ago, but i always knew it would get done.