Lack Of Defensive Talent Dooming Bucs
September 24th, 2014
Peter King of theMMQB.com suggests one reason for the horrid Bucs defense is that the roster built around S Mark Barron isn’t good enough.
Many national media types who hyped up the Bucs as potential playoff contenders are now grasping for reasons why the Bucs have been so godawful.
From a hand-picked quarterback who displays ghastly ball security, to injured and fumbling running back,s to a high-priced free agent defensive end as invisible as a ghost, to a secondary that couldn’t cover themselves with a blanket, to the failed health of the offensive coordinator, this season has unfolded in a nightmarish way that few if any could have predicted.
Yesterday, in his weekly appearance with the one and only Chris “Mad Dog” Russo, heard on the station that bears the host’s name, “Mad Dog Radio,” part of the family of sports channels heard exclusively in SiriusXM Radio, Big Ten Network-hating, pedestrian-bumping, olive oil-lapping, popcorn-munching, coffee-slurping, fried-chicken-eating, oatmeal-loving, circle-jerking, beer-chugging, cricket-watching, scone-loathing, college football-naïve, baseball box score-reading, NPR-listening, filthy-hotel-staying, fight-instigating, barista-training Peter King, of theMMQB.com and NBC Sports fame, a man who believed the Bucs were playoff bound, believes one reason for the ugly start is the team didn’t stock the defensive roster enough to help out its core trio.
Chris “Mad Dog” Russo: How bad was Tampa Thursday night? Now Tedford is taking an indefinite leave of absence and everything else with his heart issue. I don’t know why they hired Tedford to begin with. Forget the health; he didn’t have any NFL experience. Lovie is not a good offensive coach to begin with and they didn’t show up against Atlanta. You know, Jacksonville might go 1-15 but if they get [Blake] Bortles out of the mix, it will be a successful season. If Tampa goes 1-15, they don’t have a quarterback of the future necessarily on that roster. [Mike] Glennon, maybe. They are not even starting him now. Tampa is a mess Pete. What is your take on them now?
Peter King: Well, I am really surprised because I thought they would be able to play good enough defense and they haven’t. This statistic to me says everything about how bad Tampa Bay is right now: In the first three quarters of games – let’s assume they are out of it in the fourth quarter – but you are playing hard through the first three quarters. They have been outscored the first three quarters 79-14. I mean, that is like Division-III football playing against the Big Ten every week. It is stunning. As it turns out, they overestimated [Josh] McCown and they overestimated the defensive roster around [Gerald] McCoy and Lavonte David and Mark Barron. There are just not nearly good enough.
Russo: I am very worried about them. I am with you, Pete. I loved them, too, and I am not getting the over-and-under at 7 ½, let’s just leave it at that.
Joe must admit this is the first time he has heard that Barron’s inconsistent pass coverage is due to the fact that eight of his teammates aren’t good enough. Joe is sure this comes as a surprise to Alterraun Verner and Mason Foster and Dashon Goldson.
Until or unless defensive end Michael Johnson (who?) shows up, there seems to be one thing becoming clearer by the week. That someone or some people swung and missed on player evaluation.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:07 am
It’s the same problem with all high priced free agents. Mike Zimmer coaching MJ produced greater results than Frazier does. No two situations are identical and results can vary. I do think Myers and Verner are working out. And as for Smith the center – I still can’t explain that meltdown.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:09 am
The lack of rookie involvement so far has been toughest to swallow. We can’t even get most of them on the field. So valuable development time is being lost since that’s all we have left to hope for this year.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:13 am
There is talent on this defense. Watching the games it looks to me like they are being told to keep everything in front of them at all costs. They let the receivers and make the tackle.
It can’t only be talent it has to be what they’re being told to do.
It’s like they are in a prevent defense the entire game.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:20 am
@d-money
Excellent!
One of the better descriptions I have read in the last few weeks.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:21 am
“That someone or some people swung and missed on player evaluation.”
Well that is just ridiculous!
– Lapdog GM Jason Licht
September 24th, 2014 at 8:25 am
DallasBuc,
I disagree with your name of Licht – but it’s impossible to argue with what we’re seeing out of these guys. It’s just freaking pitiful.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:27 am
Passing on Luke Kuechly and taking Barron will go down as one of the ALL TIME major draft mistakes in the history of the franchise.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:30 am
That being outscored in the first three quarters 79-14 stat is stupid. 56 of those points came from the Atlanta game. So the other 2 games were 23-14? That doesn’t tell us anything except that Atlanta crushed us.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:30 am
I don’t buy this “not enough talent” crap. Every year we go out and spend money on high priced free agents (a philosophy I am strongly against), we get over hyped as a result, and then after things go bad, the media says oh they just dont have the talent. What is happening with our draft picks? These Lovonte David’s. Gerald McCoys etc? And why are you hyping free agents just to turn around and say “not enough talent.” LOL@ these national media people. The fact that kind exempts Barron from this not enough talent generalization, makes it clear he has no idea what he is talking about.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:36 am
Sorry but Barron is overrated. Casillas is a backup and Foster is average at best. Goldson is going to be cut next year.
I do think that there is growing pain in Lovie system, even LVD look lost at time. But we need 2 ballhawking safety. The era Lynch played in is over.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:36 am
It’s a three legged stool. Talent, coaching and scheme.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:39 am
Maybe Schiano and his silly discipline and defensive stunts, was squeezing everything possible from the marginal talent on this team. But he hurt some of the player’s feeling though I guess.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:41 am
We need consistency. Clearly the players are not discipline with the scheme.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:44 am
@Joeseph Mamma
Has it right! when your 1st rounder Clayborn is most useful covering running backs or hurt on the sideline. Then there is a serious problem. The front 4 has been terrible. And so much resources has been put into the D-line and all we have is McCoy!
September 24th, 2014 at 8:47 am
I still stand by the fact that Mark Barron is not the terrible player everyone makes him out to be. Tight ends have been running rampant over the Bucs, but I challenge any of you to look at film and see if Barron’s assignment was in fact, the tight end. You will see that the majority of the time it is not. Just because Butch Davis (who?) said that Barron was to be used for a specific purpose doesn’t mean he actually was/is. He remains to be one of the more consistent and versatile players on that side of the ball.
What I am getting at is that it doesnt matter who you have in your secondary in the Tampa Two if a four man rush can’t touch the quarterback. That is prerequisite numero uno for the scheme to work and will be Dominick’s biggest criticism in the state he left the team.
Who remembers all the bitching and moaning bein done that Revis was being used in a zone scheme? Revis, Goldson, and Barron weren’t the problem – it was Akeem Strongman Spence, Adrian Bustamous Maximous Clayborn, and the worst player I have ever seen, Teo Neshim.
So don’t throw daggers at the players doing their job while quarterbacks have all day to find a receiever in a gap in tbe zone. Please?
September 24th, 2014 at 8:51 am
The biggest problem on defense is scheme and specifically the way it is implemented. I don’t want to hear that other teams run the same scheme because they really don’t. Each one is unique and Lovie/Leslie’s is not covering anyone, leaving huge gaps in coverage.
I don’t know if we have the talent but we certainly aren’t in the right positions.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:53 am
warrenfb12 Says:
September 24th, 2014 at 8:30 am
I don’t buy this “not enough talent” crap. Every year we go out and spend money on high priced free agents (a philosophy I am strongly against)
When the team drafts poorly for so many years they have no other choice. Most of their draft pucks are on low salary Rollie deals and they are not resigning many of them to higher deals. The new CBA says each team must hit the minimum salary cap floor, that’s where big name free agents come in. Just like draft picks some work out (McCoy, David) some do not (Long list).
September 24th, 2014 at 8:59 am
csidedave Says:
I don’t know if we have the talent but we certainly aren’t in the right positions.
__________________________
This. How do you determine if a guy can play if he’s not in position to make it.
September 24th, 2014 at 8:59 am
The way this team dismissed Michael Bennett makes me sick on a daily basis.
September 24th, 2014 at 9:03 am
Joe Mama’s think alike.
Schanio was a better coach.
Last season we heard from every swing dick that Schanio’s coaching scheme was horrible and the reason why all the players were playing bad was all because of him.
And people actually believed this BS. But only because they want Schanio fired.
How long will it take for the media to turn on Lovie? How long should it take.
Fire Lovie
September 24th, 2014 at 9:07 am
We have the talent on both sides of the ball…..our schemes have been wrong…our gameplans wrong….
We have no pass rush and are missing 2 of our starters there (three in the Atl game).
In the Atlanta game, the minuite we started hitting their receivers at the line of scrimmage….we disrupted their passing game…..all three QBs have picked us apart over the middle with wide open recievers….we are playing off of them too much.
September 24th, 2014 at 9:07 am
All these media types and fans who are breaking their legs jumping off the bandwagon have such short memories. Maybe this has been discussed but we should reflect on Dungy’s 1st year. His first year we started out 1-8 over the first 9 games. During that stretch we lost the 1st 5 games and some of them were beat downs. Not beat downs like Atlanta this past week but the Packers smacked us around a bit. In the last 7 games of the 1996 season we won 5 of them.
The point? The Tampa 2 is not overly complicated but it is nuanced. It requires things like gap discipline and it takes a while to instill that in players. If there is still a complete lack of understanding of the nuances at the end of the year then Lovie is not the defensive coach we thought he was. There is talent on that defense it just needs to get its spit together.
I bet Joe can dig up Buc greats discussing the learning curve in the 1st year of this defense. I remember hearing Sapp discuss some reservation about the defense until they started to see some results then everyone bought in. It was a process then and it will be a process now.
September 24th, 2014 at 9:12 am
What has happened to Jason Licht, Joe? Is he even showing up at One Buc Place for work? Or, is he in London checking out locations for their new Team Headquarters?
But, doesn’t he have some answering to do? He’s the fool that brought turkeys like Michael Johnson in here and threw $Millions at his feet to do so!
September 24th, 2014 at 9:28 am
On defense we need..
Ball Hawking free safety (get rid of Goldson)
Cornerback depth
A true Mike linebacker/ move Foster outside
Left end that will get pressure/ sacks!
I wish idiots would stop with the whole “we should have drafted Keuchley.” We shouldn’t! we have Lavonte David who we wouldn’t have drafted if the above happened.
September 24th, 2014 at 9:30 am
What I see on Defensive it’s scheme u play to strengths
September 24th, 2014 at 9:35 am
One reason the Seahawks are great is that their mid-round picks (Sherman, Wright, Smith) have become stars. Not only have the Bucs failed on mid-round picks, even their top picks have failed.
2008 (no picks left on team), 2009 (none), 2010 (McCoy), 2011 (Clayborn, Bowers, Foster – 1 for 3), 2012 (Barron & David), 2013 (Banks, Spence, Gholston – we’ll see). You can’t build a strong team with results like that.
September 24th, 2014 at 9:39 am
Comparing Dungy’s defense to this team’s defense is insulting and meaningless. The game is different, the “talent” is different, the refereeing is different, the coaches are different, etc. I bet the results will be different too.
September 24th, 2014 at 9:44 am
Take GMC out of the lineup, and who is the Bucs D-line better than? Worst in the league imho. And that falls entirely on Lovie and his dreadful eye for talent.
September 24th, 2014 at 9:51 am
We know our weakness, IMHO why don’t we blitz the crap out
of them, maybe the complete passes will be shorter
watching the jets, Ryan does it a lot with his weak secondary??
Thanks
September 24th, 2014 at 9:51 am
Bring back Schiano as DC, Morris as OC, maybe between the three of them the missing ingrediant will be found and produce WINS
September 24th, 2014 at 10:06 am
@jb Says:
September 24th, 2014 at 9:12 am
What has happened to Jason Licht
This just in: Licht sighting- Found under his bed in a fetal position shivering non stop..
September 24th, 2014 at 10:13 am
Just another Dungy tidbit. In his first season when the team went 6-10, in eight out of those ten losses, the offense scored 10 points or less, including 2 shutouts with starting QB Trent Dilfer. The defense was never the question mark for that squad.
Our offense is bad, but not 1996 Trent Dilfer bad. Our defense isn’t even remotely comparable.
September 24th, 2014 at 10:21 am
Wins will come.
September 24th, 2014 at 10:23 am
letting receivers run wide open at will how can that be a game plan this defense doesn’t make sense and there were no halftime adjustments falcons were getting big chunks on every play and they were laughing on the sidelines
September 24th, 2014 at 11:06 am
We would have had a beastly front line rotation if Bennett would have gotten consideration or any other defensive end not on our roster, how can you address depth at the linebacker spot and not at defensive back or end…. This guy saw the tape, he had to know Bowers was going to be invisible and all AC had was a bull rush. Lovie set this team up for failure in the season, gotta wait another Offseason for him to correct his mistakes
September 24th, 2014 at 11:17 am
Lovie told us he was putting a premium on speed that has yet to show up. Without it and with poor assignment discipline there a holes that shouldn’t be there and players getting out-muscled and hustled. Coaching needs to be better and some undisciplined players need to sit.
September 24th, 2014 at 11:23 am
there is talent on d. We were almost top 10 last year with daniel T and a one leged revis for half a year. There is talent, more to it than that.
September 24th, 2014 at 11:31 am
BuccaneerBonzai Says:
September 24th, 2014 at 10:21 am
Wins will come.
hope you are not counting “moral” wins and victories!!!
I had so much faith in this garbage roster, that I planned a 3 week vacation. Please keep up the “realism” while I am gone!!!
September 24th, 2014 at 11:39 am
“That someone or some people swung and missed on player evaluation.”
Two words : Gaines Adams.
September 24th, 2014 at 12:31 pm
Hmmm, how many draft picks did the Bucs use on defense this Spring? Hint: the same # as wins most of us posting here think the Bucs will get this season…. Nothing like leaving the cupnoard bare, the front office and coaches had to know they’d be ****ed if the injury bug hit this depth/talent depleted defense. Another black mark against the Licht and Lovie regime….
September 24th, 2014 at 12:32 pm
“I planned a 3 week vacation.”
so did the bucs, apparently…
September 24th, 2014 at 12:39 pm
This team has not developed any talent or depth for at least ten years.
No mid to late round draft picks have panned out and contributed to this team. You simply can’t over come that with free agents.
That’s the biggest problem facing this team.
Go Yucs!
September 24th, 2014 at 12:55 pm
I’ve been saying it since he was drafted: if Mark Barron wasn’t Ronnie Lott, the pick was a bust. He’s been a MAJOR BUST. he’s almost Sabby-Bad.
September 24th, 2014 at 1:07 pm
When half of your starters are hurt with few exception you will lose. The more hurt the worse the losing. The next man up crap doesn’t work for half the team down.
September 24th, 2014 at 1:41 pm
Jason answers to Lovie.
September 24th, 2014 at 2:02 pm
The NFL has passed Lovie Smith and the Tampa-2 by
It may not have seemed like a very important game in the grand scheme of things — a bad Tampa Bay Buccaneers team getting embarrassed on national television by an inconsistent Atlanta Falcons team. But last night’s game marked the death of one of the best defensive schemes of the last twenty decades: the famed Tampa-2.
Bucs head coach Lovie Smith was in on the ground floor of the Tampa-2’s development, serving as Tampa Bay’s linebackers coach from 1996 to 2000. Those Buccaneers defenses changed the way NFL defenses played, shifting the balance of schematic power from the 3-4 that was popularized in the late-’80s by Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick back to the 4-3.
Over the last few seasons, the Tampa-2 has been phased out as a base coverage. Smith is really the only head coach in the league who still favors it. Mike Tomlin, a member of Dungy’s coaching tree, has deferred to Dick LeBeau’s aggressive 3-4 system during his time in Pittsburgh.
If you wanted to get an idea how far the Tampa-2 has fallen, just take a look at the bottom of the 2013 defensive rankings. Last in the league: the Dallas Cowboys and defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin. Right above them? Leslie Frazier’s Minnesota Vikings. Both were members of Dungy’s coaching staff in Tampa.
The Tampa-2 is a zone coverage with two safeties playing deep. It was the evolution of Bud Carson’s Cover 2 scheme that helped the Steelers dominate the 1970s. The big weakness of the Cover 2 was the space in between the two deep safeties, so Dungy and Kiffin had the middle linebacker fill that void.
The Tampa-2 features five underneath defenders and two safeties playing deep. The middle linebacker drops into the void between the two safeties. Image courtesy of NFL Game Rewind.
The Tampa-2 features five underneath defenders and two safeties playing deep. The middle linebacker drops into the void between the two safeties. Image courtesy of NFL Game Rewind.
The goal of the Tampa-2, and zone defenses in general, is to force opposing offenses to throw short passes and rallying to the ball to limit yards after catch. It’s also imperative to get pressure on the quarterback with just four pass rushers. The defense forced offenses to dink-and-dunk their way down the field with one mistake derailing the drive.
Unfortunately, modern offenses are designed to do just that. The Denver Broncos set a bunch of offensive records in 2013 with Peyton Manning throwing nearly 400 passes under ten yards. The San Diego Chargers finished fifth in total offense — and just beat the Seattle Seahawks — with a similar approach.
At the same time, offenses just adapted to the Tampa-2, coming up with myriad ways to beat it. Last night, the Falcons exploited the Bucs defense with a ton of 3×1 formations and bunch looks, a common tactic against Cover 2 defenses. Matt Ryan’s first two TD passes came against the Tampa-2.
FTW: The Buccaneers might be historically terrible
It’s not as if Tampa Bay’s issues are with personnel. Gerald McCoy is more than capable to play the Warren Sapp role. Lavonte David is perfectly suited for the weakside linebacker spot that Derrick Brooks once played. And free agent Alterraun Verner was thought to be a great fit in the system. The Bucs also picked up free agent pass rusher Michael Johnson.
Even with all that talent, the Bucs have struggled in games against Derek Anderson and Austin Davis.
If it’s not the Jimmys and the Joes, it’s gotta be the X’s and O’s.
September 24th, 2014 at 2:03 pm
I echoed similar statements this week on my fanpost at Bucs Nation. The franchise has generally done a lousy job of defensive player evaluation/development ever since the Super Bowl. http://www.bucsnation.com/2014/9/21/6747973/defensive-problems-go-beyond-lovie
September 24th, 2014 at 2:53 pm
Just for reference…. Coach Dungy First Year: Finished 6-10
1 Sun September 1 L 0-1 Green Bay Packers 3-34
2 Sun September 8 L 0-2 @ Detroit Lions 6-21
3 Sun September 15 L 0-3 @ Denver Broncos 23-27
4 Sun September 22 L 0-4 Seattle Seahawks 13-17
5 Sun September 29 L 0-5 Detroit Lions 0-27
Just saying, don’t give up yet
Lovie Smith’s first year in Chicago: Finished 5-11
1 Sun September 12 L 0-1 Detroit Lions 16-20
2 Sun September 19 W 1-1 @ Green Bay Packers 21- 10
3 Sun September 26 L 1-2 @ Minnesota Vikings 22-27
4 Sun October 3 L 1-3 Philadelphia Eagles 9-19
5 Bye Week
6 Sun October 17 L 1-4 Washington Redskins 10-13
7 Sun October 24 L 1-5 @ Tampa Bay Buccaneers 7-19
September 24th, 2014 at 3:17 pm
COVER 2=2 safety’s in deep zone coverage. BARRON HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EIGHT YARD TIGHT END CATCHES.
September 24th, 2014 at 3:27 pm
Playing a defensive scheme that doesn’t match the talent of the current personnel is also dooming the Bucs!
September 24th, 2014 at 3:35 pm
Changes can be tough and take time… I had high expectations to start the season, so this hurts. As it turns out they were most likely unrealistic expectation, but we can still go 13-3….LOL
Coach-speak doesn’t help. Lovie can’t come out and say “We are going to go out there and suck this year”
Oh well.
September 24th, 2014 at 3:38 pm
People need to stop copying their old comments and pasting on new articles. Chris@appleroofcleaning just posted a massive post that says “last nights game marked the end of the Cover -2” prettttty sure the game wasn’t last night
September 24th, 2014 at 3:41 pm
Talent is the key here. Do you think the Bengals wanted to keep Johnson? I don’t think so. I believe the Glazers were forcing L&L’s hand to pick up whoever they could to make something out of nothing. So they got other teams trash. Talent is what this team lacks and everyone’s finger should be pointed at Mark Dominic, aka “The Team Killer”. If you think losing in the draft every year for 5 years is ok then I guess I’m beside myself. #homegrown #buildthroughthedraft
September 24th, 2014 at 3:44 pm
The fact that I just read “unless Mark barron was Ronnie Lott hed be a bust, he’s been sabby bad” barron is the LEAST of our concerns. Goldson is the one getting paid the bucks and is covering running backs when Julio is behind him. Stop eating mushrooms folks. The problem is the defensive scheme. Barron is a man coverage, in the box safety that will blitz occasionally and stop the run. He was drafted for that reason- not to be a cover 2 zone coverage safety. Period
September 24th, 2014 at 3:46 pm
One has to question the Tampa 2 if we take a look at the bottom of the 2013 defensive rankings. Last in the league: the Dallas Cowboys and defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin. Right above them? Leslie Frazier’s Minnesota Vikings. Both were members of Dungy’s coaching staff in Tampa.
Even Mike Tomlin abandoned it, and he was a Dungy Disciple.
I remember when Sapp was in decline, and left Tampa. The Tampa 2 was being shredded back then. This defense absolutely depends on an effective, all the time pass rush, something we are unable to do.
It also depends on an Urlacher type middle linebacker.
Tampa has neither of these requirements.
September 24th, 2014 at 3:51 pm
@Broy34
Those players mentioned haven’t produced since we got them. So are you saying Schiano’s defense wasn’t the right scheme for goldoson and Barron as well?
September 24th, 2014 at 3:55 pm
We don’t have the talent to run a High school football defensive scheme as far as I’m concerned.
September 24th, 2014 at 4:54 pm
No Tyson I wS saying they both fit Schiano’s scheme, hence why they drafted them. The opposite of how Lovie needs and end with constant pass rush and gets a guy who had 3.5 sacks last year. Stoppin the run doesn’t matter when u don’t get pressure. And Barron is fine. As soon as Lovie gets booted he’ll go back to bein in the box
September 24th, 2014 at 5:05 pm
If we played the Bronco’s, we would lose by 100 points, unless they pulled Manning at half time.
September 24th, 2014 at 6:45 pm
Think tampa had a pretty good defense last year, top 15 with mostly same players but added McDonald and verner. Now they magically suck. Though every media outlet had us projected in the top 10 to 15 this year. This itopic is really to dumb to talk about. I’m a sucker today. So yeah there is talent. Actually should be a little better than last year. Now we have had a couple injuries last game but nothing crazy
September 24th, 2014 at 7:43 pm
BAD COACH.
September 24th, 2014 at 10:38 pm
make barron play d end…maybe if he got trucked for a few games it would wake him up….but then again you cant fix stupid
September 25th, 2014 at 3:41 pm
Tampa 2 without pass rush is basically a prevent defense. a savvy QB will get yards on almost every play. our only hope is the pass rush finding another gear or the team consistently forcing some turnovers. this d-line does not look capable of forcing punts.