How Will Kellen Winslow Fit In New Offense?
March 17th, 2012
After new Bucs coach Greg Schiano spoke on SiriusXM NFL radio about his offense and after Carl Nicks said one main reason he came to the Bucs is because he wanted to be involved in a running offense, it’s pretty clear the Bucs will be a ground-and-pound team in 2012.
Usually, teams that like to beat opponents to a pulp with the run have solid blockers up and down the line. With the Bucs, that line ends with Kellen Winslow.
Despite being a gifted pass catcher, it’s hard to see Winslow fitting in on a team that is trying go all Woody Hayes. As talented as a receiver that Winslow is, he isn’t exactly the greatest blocker.
Winslow’s status with the Bucs came up in a NFC South chat coordinated by Pat Yasinskas of ESPN.
Andrew Hawkins (West Virginia)
Any word on what we plan to do with Winslow? I would have liked to have had another TE to go with Stocker and just cut K2 and free up that money and the problems he seemed to be causing on the field.Pat Yasinskas
I still wouldn’t be surprised if something happens there. Lot depends on what new staff thinks of him. But he’s got a high cap figure, is a little older and has knee issues. Plus, Sullivan’s calling the plays now. If he follows the system he was in with Giants, Bucs might not be throwing to TE as much.
Well, if Winslow won’t be thrown to much, and if he cannot block that well, and his knees have given him so much trouble that Raheem Morris had to limit his practice time in order to ensure he could answer the bell on Sundays, Joe wonders how much longer Winslow (and his big contract) will be around?
In fact, the Bucs might just be trying to unload Winslow. Earlier this week, Brad Biggs of the Chicago Tribune Twittered just hours after the free-agent frenzy began Tuesday that the Bucs tried to unload Winslow on the Bears, but Chicago wouldn’t take the bait.
@BradBiggs: One rumor making rounds is #Buccaneers tried to trade TE Kellen Winslow to #Bears who did not bite.
To be fair, Schiano has said he wants to take shots downfield. If that is the case, Winslow is still valuable.
Given the Bucs’ change of offense, Winslow’s subpar blocking, his aching knees and his bloated salary, Joe wouldn’t be surprised if Winslow is playing elsewhere next season.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:09 pm
Bad knees, bad attitude, bad blocking, bad discipline = bad investment.
I don’t know where anyone gets the idea that he is a passing game asset. Look comprehensively at the stats: he is one of the most targted tight ends and his numbers pale in comparison to players targeted much less frequently.
He was targeted 120 times and ended up with 771 yards and 2 TDs. By comparison, aaron hernandez was targeted 113 times for 950 yards and 7 tds. Winslow was outperformed by Pettigrew, 777/5tds and Dustin Keller. Heck, Jarrod Cook of the Titans was targeted 83 times and had 760 yards and 3 tds.
Football outsiders ranked winslow as the 34th best tight end in 2011, and gave him a negative rating per pass play.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
To be fair, Schiano has said he wants to take shots downfield. If that is the case, Winslow is still valuable.
I see what you’re saying Joe, but what about all those times he doesn’t get the ball thrown to him and he starts whining to Freeman like he did last season? Is he REALLY worth it? NO WAY! His cons far outweigh his pros and the ONLY reason they’re keeping him is lack of quality tight ends available through the draft and free agency. The quicker they dumb his “It’s ALL ABOUT ME” attitude the better off we’ll be!
March 17th, 2012 at 3:14 pm
Winslow is undeniably a liability in the passing game.
I have told you guys before, you can’t just accept what you hear and uniformly believe as true, i.e. Winslow is a good receiver.
You must look at the expanded statistics to see. When Winslow is on the field for a pass play, the team overall gets a negative value – due to too many incompletions and poor average.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Get off this “attitude” bulls*!t. Where has Winslow demonstrated any “bad attitude” or “bad behavior?” Not every player’s gonna be perfect. A little bit of an ego is a good thing.
Kellen Winslow is a fine tight end for us. He’s led us in receiving 2 out of 3 years and has consistently produced for us. Sure he’s not great at blocking, but neither was his dad, and he’s in the hall of fame.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Thomas 2.2
Finally an Ally !
I couldn’t agree more.
Amen
March 17th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
Attitude, performance, and health issues aside, If the Bucs took a shot at him once with the proposed Chicago trade, there’s probably another bullet in that gun!
March 17th, 2012 at 3:25 pm
Winslow won’t be going anywhere….until draft time. They’ll dangle him in the middle rounds and try to get somebody to bite. I don’t know if they’ll keep him beyond that or not but I know that there will be some more rounds of cuts after the draft and when it gets closer to fall camp and Dominik will be wanting to make some more moves for positions they didn’t fill in the draft. Winslows salary will be tempting to get rid of when that tme comes. It all depends on what they see out of Stocker and our other TE’s during OTA’s.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:26 pm
Thomas,
Where’s the evidence for him having a bad attitude? You keep saying it, yet I’ve never seen it. Because of one argument on the sideline with Freeman? Or is it because he didn’t practice every day? Oh wait, that was a coaching decision, just like how Gruden didn’t practice Galloway every day (which prolonged his career).
He didn’t have a great year last year, but I ask you this: who did? When you go 4-12 and get blown out in most of those, nobody played that good. Perhaps those stats you refer to are a result of our offense being so predictable, and having absolutely no deep threat.
I’m not saying he’s an all-pro anymore. He has definitely slowed down, and I am not against trading him for an upgrade. However, you are sorely mistaken if you think we have another TE even close to him. You think Luke Stocker could have 700 yards receiving? Not if he was targeted 300 times! But please, stop with this ridiculousness that he has a bad attitude. Show me one bit of evidence that supports that. You won’t,because you can’t. But then again, when has that ever stopped you from talking out of your arse?
March 17th, 2012 at 3:31 pm
@Patrick,
Exactly. Apparently Thomas & crew want players that don’t ask for the ball. Being a passive player is the exact opposite of what you want from your skill position players. They should all want the ball, all the time. You don’t think Jerry Rice screamed for the ball? You don’t think Larry Fitzgerald does? They all do. That’s what makes them great, that they feel like they are always open and can always make a play.
If Freeman can’t handle that, then he’s the problem (which I don’t believe for a second BTW). QB’s have guys screaming for the ball all the time, they can deal with it. Thomas has a thing for Winslow, just like he does for GMC. Whenever he has a thing for someone, he resorts to using Football Outsiders as his main source. When they don’t fit his agenda, he denounces Football Outsiders as worthless. It’s his only play.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
None of this matters. What matters is what goes on behind the scenes between Coach Schiano and Winslow. Either he’s all in the Schiano way or he’s gone and I’m fine with that either way.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:38 pm
He produces stats, absolutely. He can’t block and gave away our offensive gameplan because of it.
Worse than that, K2 is in Free’s ear all day, everyday and when he gets the ball and gets tackled he kicks and pushes people off him.. Plays with a $hitty attitude. I hate seeing that out there and I bet he’s not in Pewter and Red when they suit up.
On a side note, I would like the Bucs go to the Black pants/jerseys for a few (night) games (if we get any)…
March 17th, 2012 at 3:39 pm
I wouldn’t mind one or the other: a great pass catching TE or a great run blocking TE. Right now, the bucs don’t have one of either.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:41 pm
If that report is true that the Bucs attempted to trade him for a pick, and I believe it is, doesn’t that suggest they’ve already made up their mind? If that round came whizzing by my head, I’d be trying to get into a witness protection program by instructing my agent to start looking for a team that would be willing to take me. I don’t think it’s safe on the streets!
March 17th, 2012 at 3:44 pm
as fast as they got faine outta here i wouldnt doubt they do the same to k2 i say do it and get a lb in f/a and draft a blocking TE in draft
March 17th, 2012 at 3:49 pm
The only way I would get rid of Winslow is if we traded him and got a 2nd round pick in return. And THEN we sign Kevin Boss to fill the hole, so we would at least get someone who’s somewhat close to his level. We would have extra salary cap room and that extra pick.
That’d be the only way.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:55 pm
@patrick kevin boss already signed with chiefs.
March 17th, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Winslow is the best TE on the Bucs squad, which isn’t saying much when you grade his competition. We’d be lucky to receive any better than a 3rd round pick for him.
If he can’t be traded in the next week, I’d say dump him and sign Jacob Tamme; a much better multipurpose TE at a much lower cost, with plenty of upside.
March 17th, 2012 at 4:01 pm
Simple:
Keep Winslow. Shut up and quit complaining about him.
Now let’s have a good season.
March 17th, 2012 at 4:24 pm
Sorry Patrick, we could do so much more with that 9M cap hit via K2 and he can’t block…. so, use ur common sense
March 17th, 2012 at 4:46 pm
If you dont think that K2 displays a bad attitude when he “thinks” he isnt getting the ball enough then you arent watching the games. He also constantly complains about the officiating when he is almost always wrong.
Google Winslow in Cleveland and read the articles about his departure from their – his attitude wore thin.
Why do you think Chicago, a team with deperate needs at tight end, didnt want him?
I agree that Stocker underwhelmed last year. I dont agree that K2 is an all around better tight end option today. We dont know what Stocker is yet due to injury and bad coaching.
I want Winslow gone and to bring in a tight end either a veteran or draftee. K2 is done as an upper tier tight end.
March 17th, 2012 at 5:02 pm
Agreed Thomas, Winslow does not display the attitude of a team player when hes screaming at his QB who threw a TD to another reciever other than him. He also has an arrogance about him that I don’t like. We could find a TE who is willing to block and be a team player and also be a decent reciever. We have some good WR already so we should be fine without K2 when it comes to passing.
March 17th, 2012 at 5:08 pm
I agree with some of you that saying Winslow is here until at least the draft. We only get worse if he is gone, I think we really missed out on guys like Boss and Bennett, both signed for cheap, and can BLOCK pretty damn good, something Winslow does nothing of. There is still a lot of time left in free agency and the draft, so lets be patent on this one.
March 17th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
Kellen Winslow accounted for like 10 of Free’s INTs, we don’t need that next year.
March 17th, 2012 at 5:23 pm
Patrick,
The bad attitude is displayed when another receiver catches the ball and he turns into a spectator. I’ve been watching NFL rewind lately so I can see what happened without the tears in my eyes and if anyone but him catches the ball he turns into a statue instead of putting a hat on a guy with a different color jersey. If he does catch the ball on a play the Bucs need, it’s getting called back for PI. I also disagree about Stocker. I saw a TE who caught the ball with his hands, ran better than I thought he could and played under an OC with no clue how to integrate a second TE. Winslow is athletically elite, I get that, but he hurts this team more than he helps.
March 17th, 2012 at 5:53 pm
@NJBuc fan,
You do realize that Stocker had several critical drops last year right, including one in the end zone. How many TD’s did he catch? Oh yeah, none. And please don’t say he didn’t have opportunities, because he did. But when you are the backup TE and you drop balls and display alligator arms (which he did a few times), you don’t deserve many chances. Trust me, if he was showing big things in practice, he would have been out there more. Hands have never been what he is known for, in fact, the exact opposite. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he had poor coaching and he could become a decent TE (at least that’s what I hope), but from a pass-catching perspective he isn’t even in the same league as Winslow.
Again, him complaining to get the ball is normal, and what most great players do (not saying he’s great). Aside from the one game, when else did you ever see it anyway? You must have some excellent football package that gave you angles I didn’t get. Or maybe you have inside information from a source I have been unable to find. Everything I’ve ever read says he’s a very good teammate who works very hard. The guy plays every single game, despite the fact he probably will be unable to walk by age 40. But some of you guys who can’t even get your fat arse off the couch want to criticize him for having a bad attitude and not working hard? Interesting.
I’m not even a huge Winslow fan, but this criticism he gets is flat out wrong. Criticizing him for not blocking well is fine, and justified. However, using him as a scapegoat for last year is beyond ridiculous, especially when your facts are wrong. There’s about 20 players that should be cut (cut, not traded) before Winslow.
March 17th, 2012 at 6:18 pm
gotta look at it from a management perspective. He’s gone
March 17th, 2012 at 6:23 pm
We used to have a good blocking tight end in John Gilmore, but we got rid of him. Is he available?
March 17th, 2012 at 6:26 pm
yeah, Gilmore… he was a great blocker… now he’s on the couch like us
March 17th, 2012 at 6:27 pm
Yeah, that was stupid to get rid of him. He could block, plus he didn’t have hands of stone.
March 17th, 2012 at 6:51 pm
Hawaiian is spot on.
Who says Chicago doesn’t want him? Maybe, in their opinion, we’re asking too much for him. Winslow is worth a 3rd rounder. You’re confusing “swagger” with having a bad attitude.
March 17th, 2012 at 6:54 pm
John Gilmore signed a 1 year contract with the Saints, even caught 1 TD. Glimore, Stovall, Ruud, Cadillac all signed 1yr contracts, all now FAs, none likely to be re-signed. HINT: Never look back, they may be gaining on ya!
March 17th, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Winslow Is a GOOD tight end.Every one had a bad year last year on the ofense.With the exception of Davin Joseph.You cant expect a tight end to have a good year when your Qb has a bad year like Free did.
March 17th, 2012 at 7:16 pm
Kellen’s main problem is his lack of athleticism the past few years. He never was the biggest, fastest, best blocking TE but he had moves and could gain separation from linebackers and box out corners. He just doesn’t have the same moves anymore from the knee problems… The technique and hands are there but the explosion and concise routes are diminishing…
The guy is a fierce competitor and that may affect his attitude but the bottom line is the fact that he can’t ball like he used to; plain and simple.
I think the Bucs have to move on given his cap hit. We’ve got other weapons to use in the passing game and he is not a need like he was last year. I’m sure they will find someone in the draft or free agency that can fill in as a capable blocker and catch some balls as well. Maybe the kid they picked up from Cincy who went to High School with Freeman? Maybe Stocker can do some good thing when healthy and properly coached?
Kellen must go…
March 17th, 2012 at 7:37 pm
Winslow,recruited and drafted by guys on this staff.if we shop him you bet its for a reason.nobody knows hom better than davis .get the cap space and add tolbert,lb or safety.this team is starting new
March 17th, 2012 at 7:43 pm
One more thing, if I was Kellen Winslow and I had to play on that miserable excuse for a football team last year, I would be an arse hole too. Would you rather him be happy and smiling all the time? I actually want players on the team to be pissed off when we lose. I want them to care more than I care. So if he was acting like a jerk last year, I’m okay with it. At least he has heart and the game matters to him. I don’t know if I can say the same for some of the other guys on the team (or pro sports in general).
March 17th, 2012 at 7:55 pm
Lol- sometimes I worry about you guys
You remember that he’s our multiple year leading pass reciever- riiiight??
And I was always considered a great team player- and in the middle of that horrific losing streak- I would have been slapping the QB- and the line, and the defense- what kinda ass would stupidly stand there, all happy and dopey, while your team is getting humiliated on national Tv week after week !!
If you say you would- then you don’t have to wonder why you aren’t in the NFL- you ain’t got the fire
Frankly, the fact that they all seemed ok with being humiliated,was the biggest reason I was disgusted, and knew Raheem had lost them
I remember seeing Aqib dancing on the sideline- doing his rappa bit- in street clothes. Black joining him- while we were getting destroyed again!!!
I would have attacked them with the Gatoraide jug!!
Winslow was the only one who seemed concerned by losing- he should be!! He’s the damn vet- he should show those buncha punk kids that getting humiliated was damn unacceptable!!!!!!!!!!!
You guys whining that he” lost his temper”, go watch some Pu%%# sport – like figure skating!
Sapp, Nickerson, Brooks, Lynch- they woulda been fighting on every play. The opposition would be afraid to try and embarrass them like that! There woulda been a price to pay for humiliating THOSE Buccaneers!
Dom traded up to get Stocker last year- because he said there were no quality TEs in this draft
And while Winslow isn’t a great blocker- here’s a news flash- he still blocks better than Stocker- speed guys killed him going wide- and everyone powered over him in the middle
And. He. Can’t. Catch!
Not at Tennessee. Not here
I don’t believe the nimrod report in Chicago
March 17th, 2012 at 7:56 pm
“Given the Bucs’ change of offense, Winslow’s subpar blocking, his aching knees and his bloated salary, Joe wouldn’t be surprised if Winslow is playing elsewhere next season.”
First, I’m not sure where all this “bloated contract” business is coming from but K2 will make a $3 million dollar base salary w/1.8 million in roster, workout and likely to be earned bonuses so his cap hit if released will be $4.8 million…he’s not making a ton of money.
Second, I’ve mentioned this before but I’ll do it again for those who missed it (including The Serial Agitator aka Thomas):
Catches: 6th, 6th, & 7th
Yards: 6th, 6th, 12th
DYAR (Football Outsiders Stat for Value): 11th, 7th, 33rd
He’s produced every year despite having a young offense. His production is fine.
Lastly, for everybody wanting to cut Winslow, riddle me this: Who do you want to bring in to replace him? Eliot posting above me is getting excited about Chase “Mr. Glass” Coffman! Do we burn one of our top 4 round picks on a tight end? I don’t think so. How about this, if anyone can name a guy available in free agency that can come in and replace his production at $3.3 million a year I promise you that I’ll try to get on board. Swear.
Jacob Tamme?
*crickets*
Joel Dressen anyone?
*silence*
32 year old Visanthe Shiancoe?
…
March 17th, 2012 at 8:02 pm
Hawaiian,
I’m not advocating that Stocker replace Winslow, they are different ball players, and you’re right the drop against the Lions hurt. That said, you will have to point out the alligators arms and the TD opportunities, because I can’t recall seeing that once. I think he’s a good second TE who’s production will improve with a better scheme. To me the kid played hard. Also, I’m not saying Winslow was the reason Tampa was bad, Tampa was bad because of penalties and turnovers. Winslow’s lack of discipline was a source of both. Prime example, 4th quarter vs. the Titans, Blount runs for a first down to their 25, Winslow gets called for holding McCarthy 10 yards behind the play (full extension) and the Bucs are back near the 50 . They punt, lose the lead and then the game. When I say the negative outweighs the positive think of it this way: he had 70 some odd catches for 700 and something yards, which is probably 20 catches and a couple a hundred yards over league average for TEs. That’s less than 20 yards of production per game and does compensate for:
1) When he’s in the world knows it’s a pass
2) The penalties
3) the fact that 5’s primary target never practices so the passing game is out of sync (Remember when he didn’t get depth vs. Atlanta and the resulting pick six)
Lastly, here’s my inside info. Blocking is not a skill, it’s want to. I can’t speak for you or the teams that you have played on athletically or in you profession, but a guy that’s not doing his job because of lack of effort is not a good team mate. And remember, the same guys who say he’s a good team mate say the same about Talib. But if you’re not there when I need you, how can you be a good team mate?
March 17th, 2012 at 8:03 pm
“Winslow was the only one who seemed concerned by losing- he should be!! He’s the damn vet- he should show those buncha punk kids that getting humiliated was damn unacceptable!!!!!!!!!!!”
“THE TRUTH. He’s one of the fews guys on the team last year who showed a HATRED of losing. Stop the madness.”
“You guys whining that he” lost his temper”, go watch some Pu%%# sport – like figure skating!
How is it that K2 has an “attitude” yet Tom Brady yelling at Bill O’Brien on the sideline makes him a “fiery competitor”? If yelling or getting in Free’s ear about getting him the ball is going to negatively affect him then he’s weak sauce anyway and we’re all doomed. You’ve got to have thick skin to be the Franchise.
March 17th, 2012 at 8:15 pm
I understand why people want to trade him. I don’t think anyone wants to flat out cut him….. let me rephrase that, I don’t think any rational right thinking individual would want to flat out cut him. That scenario only hurts us. If we can get a 3rd or 4th for him I’d be willing to consider it given there are other needs on the team that outweigh the value Winslow brings. Apparently Dominick agrees.
March 17th, 2012 at 8:21 pm
@NJBuc “Blocking is not a skill, it’s want to.”
If that was true, the Bucs would have hired Deepak Chopra over an actual OL coach.
March 17th, 2012 at 8:35 pm
After the Gaines Adam trade I doubt Chicago would even pick up the phone when the Bucs called about ANYTHING!
Winslow can catch but darn the dude can not block worth a darn. If the Bucs are serious about a running game Winslow usage will decrease and given his past ‘demands’ about wanting the da*n ball it’s highly unlikely that he’ll be happy in that role. If the Bucs could trade him to any team for a 2nd round pick I’d go for it.
March 17th, 2012 at 8:37 pm
We agree 110% Captain.
Blocking being a “want to” is absolutely ridiculous. How about I send you in there to block 250 pound men and see how you do. You should be fine as long as you want to block! He has never been a good blocking TE. Not in college, not in Cleveland, not in Tampa, probably not even in high school. His specialty is to catch the ball, which he does very well. It’s no different than a Rajon Rondo not shooting the ball very well, yet he’s a very good point guard. Shooting is a part of being a point guard, yet he struggles at it, but he makes up for it through other parts of the game. K2 is not a complete TE, but he’s very good at what he is supposed to do (and signed to do) – catch the ball.
Beside, you said when he’s in the game, it’s a pass. Then you gave an example of a holding call on a run??? You missed me on that point. He’s in for a ton of running plays (he doesn’t miss many snaps period), and believe me, he was far from the only one getting run over while blocking. I remember that play, and while it can be challenged if it even was a hold, it’s only one play. He was in for several big running plays (although there weren’t many all year) last year, including Blount’s monster run against Green Bay.
March 17th, 2012 at 8:41 pm
@Sensible
It’s not sensible to think every poster cares about Winslow’s attitude on or off the field. Heck, he’s not a not quite a POS in my book, but he’s obviously trade bait for a new power offense that will run 2 TE sets and use play action.
Winslow is a single down threat at best only as a slot receiver. Perhaps his contract is worth that, but the Bucs have 5 slot receivers. Those rickety knees are only worth 3rd downs for maybe another year.
Everyone knows it and I think it’s coming whether you like it or not. He’ll be traded, and likely cut. And perhaps be resigned, if he’s lucky.
In 2010 Jacob Tamme had 67 recs for 631 yards, a 9.4 avg with 4 TDs.
Sure, he lacked in production last year, as did most Colts, but
he’s entering his 5th year healthy and plays top notch special teams. Oh yeah, he’s a pretty darn good run blocker, too.
March 17th, 2012 at 8:42 pm
winslow will be outta here … his time has passed him by. thats all.
March 17th, 2012 at 8:44 pm
And cheaper.
March 17th, 2012 at 9:20 pm
Stocker is a rook. Dom did move up to get him because he’s a all around TE. So he dropped some passes last year over the middle. O was telegraphin plays and he’s a rookie.
I say free up the 5M. Get a blocking TE or move friggin Lorig up there. He can do it all. Spend the other 2.5-4M left over on a LB.
The offense will move with the weapons we have now. Can we stop the run???? I doubt it
March 17th, 2012 at 9:21 pm
There’s a 50 pound difference between Lorig and Ernest, who’s the better blocker? One guy sticks his face mask in there and the other guy does not. And you may have missed this, but TEs are asked to primarily block LBs or double down on DEs, it’s not a size mis-match. On your TV, does Stocker appear to be 300 lbs?
March 17th, 2012 at 9:26 pm
Jacob Tamme?
*crickets*
Joel Dressen anyone?
yeah, I’ll take either if they’ll block the guy in front of them
March 17th, 2012 at 9:27 pm
@NJBuc – Lorig comment was a joke
March 17th, 2012 at 9:28 pm
Phillips to LB and Lorig to fullback – Coaches made some poor decisions
March 17th, 2012 at 9:42 pm
phillips ???
March 17th, 2012 at 9:43 pm
I really dont think its a matter of ability, effort or attitude. I think its really a matter of does he fit the new offensive system. Period. Some players can be very good but not fit a play system or philosophy.
March 17th, 2012 at 9:45 pm
Winslow is gone…believe it. Can’t have a non-blocking TE, you just can’t. If you’re gonna pound the ball then you have to have a TE who can block so the defense doesn’t know you’re not going to run to the side Winslow is lined up on. He’s out of here and he should be. You don’t pay that much for a one dimensional player.
March 17th, 2012 at 9:49 pm
On a side note; someone mentioned another uniform change……to black pants and/or jerseys? Please, PLEASE……….leave them be! Love the uni’s as they are now and along with the orange throwbacks once a year we are COVERED!
Hope this gets through somehow………LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!!!!!!!
March 17th, 2012 at 9:51 pm
@raphael – Jermaine (not of the jackson 5) – always breakin his forearms Phillips
March 17th, 2012 at 9:52 pm
Lorig actually played very well last year. Expect to see him high on the preseason fullback charts
Plus – he can catch
Something Stocker has never been able to Do anywhere.
If ya read predradt anylasis- that’s why he dropped like a stone in the draft
Oh, and he blocks worse than Winslow- bum knees and all
With Coffman signed- Stocker may not make the team
March 17th, 2012 at 9:55 pm
Most linebackers are bigger than 240, so yes, there is a mismatch. Plus, the type of blocking a RB does is very different from what a TE has to do. The two simply are not comparable. Do you want to put a RB on the line and see what happens. That would be a joke.
Again, I’m not arguing he’s a good blocker. No one can do that. I am saying he is the best option by far that we have right now at TE. It’s not even close. You know it, I know it, even Thomas knows it. If you can upgrade the position, then I’ll help pack his bags. Bringing in a TE from Indy who had like 15 catches last year won’t do it for me. But if you think for one second that Luke Stocker is a better talent than Winslow, then I really don’t know what to tell you. There’s no point even arguing.
March 17th, 2012 at 9:57 pm
I agree with you Captain, so I am just nit picking, but Lorig has 7 career receptions in college and the pros. Not sure I would be quite ready to say he can catch. Let’s at least let him get to 10 first, ok? But I don’t think that’s a position we really need to worry about upgrading, with all the other holes we have.
March 17th, 2012 at 9:58 pm
Lorig’s a big kid and we desperately need a FB. Everybody should be better running behind our O line. Shoot, I think i’m good for a couple carries a game…
I’m not so high on Stocker but I don’t want to pigeon hole the kid b/c of his rookie season(started out without traincamp and got injured).
March 17th, 2012 at 10:04 pm
@ Hawaiian – I disagree with you regarding the FB and TE blocking assignments. They are very similar and many times either one is in motion lead blocking.
Lorig’s actually listed on Official roster as a FB/TE
March 17th, 2012 at 10:10 pm
It’s much different blocking someone when they are 1 foot away from you in a 3 point stance versus being able to size them up and essentially chip block them.
March 17th, 2012 at 10:11 pm
If you’re going to run the ball then ANY blocking TE is better than Winslow. If we were going to be New Orleans or New England then yes….keep Winslow but if you are going to be a run first team then you don’t let the other team know that you aren’t going to run to one side of the field because Winslow is lined up there. That’s like having Lumpkin come in on third down and letting the other team know “Hey! We’re passing now!” Winslow was productive because he was targeted a lot. That changes with the emergence of V.J. and our strategy to run the ball first. You want a tall 6’5 target to throw to?? You got V.J. who is a lot faster than Winslow. Want someone taller you can dump the ball off to? How about Chase Coffman at 6’6″. Winslow does not fit in to THIS offense. It’s going to be a lot different than what we’ve had in the past.
March 17th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
…..or be able to run full speed into them. Not the same thing, sorry.
March 17th, 2012 at 10:19 pm
Tim and HawaiIan: I told you 2 not to get attached to RahRah, you opposed me and ended up looking stupid.
I am telling you not to get attached to win-slow, heed history, or look stupid again.
Win-slow is not part of this team’s future, nor should he be.
March 17th, 2012 at 10:23 pm
@BKNY
“It’s not sensible to think every poster cares about Winslow’s attitude on or off the field”
If that’s not a factor for you then ignore that part of the post and focus on the other factors I put out there on the subject. Simple. LOL. Other posters have made that their rallying cry for cutting K2 when it’s really a weak excuse.
“Heck, he’s not a not quite a POS in my book, but he’s obviously trade bait for a new power offense that will run 2 TE sets and use play action.”
This is absolutely true. We can sell him high while he still has value. I’ve got no problem with that if it lands us a extra 3rd or 4th so we can potentially draft his replacement. If it’s anything lower then we might as well keep him until we can more adequately replace him via next year’s free agency or draft. No tight end on the market brings the hands and veteran savvy that K2 currently provides.
“Winslow is a single down threat at best only as a slot receiver. Perhaps his contract is worth that, but the Bucs have 5 slot receivers. Those rickety knees are only worth 3rd downs for maybe another year.”
I disagree with him being a 1 down TE at this point in his career. He’s always needed help via scheme or the tackle to help blocking yet Blount was still busting out huge gains last year with him on the field. So at worst, keep him around for one more year and cut him after that. Why create a hole now when you don’t have an adequate replacement lined up? (see: Faine, Jeff). K2 will continue to be a proven dangerous weapon if left one-on-one with a Mike linebacker and the more weapons we have, the better Freeman will be.
Tamme doesn’t fit in with this “two tights power run scheme” either. Tamme’s a 236 lbs H-Back and an ok blocker and that’s probably all he’ll ever be. If you’re comparing the two players, why get rid of a talented proven weapon to bring in a guy who’s not as talented with the same skill set? To save a measly $2 million? Tamme is not a weapon. Hes a role player. If/when K2 is replaced the guy needs to be an all-around Brandon Pettigrew-type…and that guy isnt available right now in free agency or in the draft due to our other pressing needs.
Save the K2 talk for next year after we see him in the new offense. I’m sure will be presently surprised.
March 17th, 2012 at 10:24 pm
*we’ll be pleasantly surprised
lol
March 17th, 2012 at 11:52 pm
Blocking from TE is way different from blocking at C. The gap between blocking from TE to FB is worlds apart. There is no way you thought about what you posted before you posted it. FB and TE blocking are on completely different planes.
March 18th, 2012 at 12:03 am
I don’t understand all of this stupid talk about cutting Winslow, especially without getting a replacement that would be an immediate upgrade. And please guys tell me who that might be right now? Also even if he can’t block that well, he would still be a HUGE asset on 3rd down. Just think With V-Jax and Williams on the outside, maybe Parker/Benn in the slot and Winslow at TE. None of those guys will face a double coverage and our chances of getting a first down will never be out of reach.
When young Qb’s have a tight end who can catch it gives them that much more confidence. So until we can get a TE who is an upgrade over Winslow and I can’t see , there is not point in calling for his head.
Also I wouldn’t count Luke Stocker out just yet, considering how bad the coaching was last year. Just hearing the name Greg Olsen makes me sick. Any player who had a bad season last year deserves a shot in training camp and preseason, just because the terrible coaching we had.
March 18th, 2012 at 12:09 am
I have not heard or read one thing about the Buc’s changing uniforms, where the hell did that info/misinfo come from? I would like to see a 3rd uniform from the Buc’s in addition to the throwback, I think it would add a nice spark to the sparking fan base. Of course as long as they looked good lol.
March 18th, 2012 at 12:42 am
@lion – I didn’t say they were going to were the black jerseys… I said I wish the would wear them sometime this year (at night, if we had any night games). someone said that on another site and I thought it was a great idea. IMO Black jerseys are pretty sweet and may give this team a new identity.
@have a nice day – FB and TE are worlds apart??? I disagree. in many offenses, TE and FB are interchangeable.
March 18th, 2012 at 1:16 am
First off @Lion Your post about Winslow prompted me to enjoy a fine glass of Glenfiddich 50. Thank you, sir. Not enough to make me touch my Glenfiddich 1920(waiting for my first born) but spot on for a 50.
@K2ngAdroc Look guy, teams may try to turn a DE into a FB/TE, or any other combo, but you can not say with a knowledgeable mind that TE blocking and FB blocking are equal or closely related outside of saying “they both are assigned to block”. A FBs assignment and a TEs assignment are not interchangeable. It is not that simple at all. The approach is entirely different.
A TE, depending on run block or pass block, generally has his man right in front of him or within a few yards. A FB, depending on run block or pass block, has his man at least 5-10 yards away from him and he may never truly know who he is supposed to block until seconds after the snap. This gets extremely technical especially in pass block. Even in zone run blocking a FB never truly knows who is going to roam through his gap since he is trying to see passed the multitudes of giant bodies occluding his visual path: he won’t see them until they are within a second of his vision.
If you are not versed in how to do so,be it C, RG, TE, FB etc… you will be consistently burned. Enter Erik Lorig.
March 18th, 2012 at 1:19 am
Sorry :/ I totally meant “K1ngAdroc”. No disrespect.
March 18th, 2012 at 2:01 am
Guys- here’s what’s really, Really important! If we are planning to build an offense that grinds the ball up and down the field- getting 3 yeads and a cloud of dust- then don’t worry about personnel too much
That offense is getting here Twenty years too late. You won’t win that way in todays NFL. If our new coach plans to win by pounding the ball, then he’s gonna be in deep trouble real quick.
Today’s NFL is a throwing league. All the rules have been changed to create that. It’s what the league, the Fans, and the Networks all want. You have to be able to throw the Ball to win. period. End of story
Now- ideally, you want to be able to force the ball down the Defenses throat- on the ground. That won’t win games( I don’t wanna here any stories about the good a ole days!! Not friggin relevant now!)
It will force the defense to play the run. This is important- only because it helps free up the pass, and control the clock. Not win games
Again- not win games
Twenty years ago- TEs were often just Misplaced tackles or guards. Just big blocking Lummoxes- like some of you mistakenly believe we need here
No. No . No.
Did you watch the playoffs at all. Jermichael Finley.Rob Gronkoski. Tony Gonzales. Vernon Davis. Alex Hernandez. Jimmy Graham.
Not a friggin decent blocker in the bunch
You don’t think they can hurt you?? Lol, over and over
If this team is Gonna win- it will be because Freeman can beat the other team.
That’s the whole story. I think V.Jackson finally got the commitment from a team he has wanted, and not recieved before. We love ya V. Jackson- he has the best, most complete set of gifts in the league.
Think he will dominate here- for 5 years or more.
Wiliams, Benn, Briscoe, and Parker will all be good/ great Wrs with time and Coaching( ugh, can we do better than Fleck??)
We need a Rb that can seamlessly float out and catch passes in the flat. We have a Fullback who looks like he can do it
But you wanna bring in some stiiff stooge to block- that takes away a critical weapon from the only guy that matters- Freeman!
Winslow is Josh’s favorite target. That makes him priceless.
Leading Reciever. Leading reciever
Please! Let’s not have this conversation. It gives other teams fans a chance to make fun of us!
Oh, I like the Black uniform components- by the way
March 18th, 2012 at 2:06 am
Exactly Have a Nice Day. I can’t believe someone could possibly argue that blocking from a 3 point stance with someone inches from you is the same as blocking someone from 5-7 yards of space! Perhaps a physics course would be helpful for them to understand. It’s night and day, and I’m shocked that anyone could argue. If that were the case, why don’t we just put Donald Penn in the backfield and have him block, since it’s the same thing. Then we could put Blount at the guard position, and Lorig at left tackle. I mean, it’s all the same, right?
And how exactly are FB and TE interchangeable? You are making no sense to me whatsoever. I’ve never seen Tony Gonzalez line up in the fullback position, have you? What about Antonio Gates? Nope. That’s just like saying wide receiver and running back are interchangeable. Absolutely ridiculous.
March 18th, 2012 at 2:08 am
@Captain Tim,
I think you just ended the argument with that excellent post. Everybody drive home safely, because it is over!
March 18th, 2012 at 2:22 am
@Capt Tim “if we are planning to build an offense that grinds the ball….” Have you listened to any of Schiano’s press conferences? He does not want grinds. He does not want long drives. Hell, in his first press conference(and many after that) he stated that long drives(’10, 11, 12, 13 play drives are hard to do’) are hard to come by in today’s NFL and that scoring quick via deep passing is key. He wants to “take shots down the field….”. Why are you arguing against something that the head coach has already said is not part of the plan?
We will be a pass first team, according to the words of Schiano himself, so why the heck are you creating an argument about what we should or should not do?
March 18th, 2012 at 2:24 am
Two people on oftener refuse to quit last year…Josh Freeman and Kellen Winslow.
Of course K2 was screaming for the ball…especially when Parker kept fumbling and the line couldn’t block for Blount. Especially when Freeman was getting hit so much he couldn’t throw accurately.
Winslow had his bad moments…such as running the wrong routes from a lack of practice (blame coaches) and a few drops, but many of Freeman’s passes were off as well.
You people saying to cut him are the same people that will blame Dominick for doing so in a year, just like you did concerning Ruud. You claim that it’s for the good of the team, but will point fingers when you are wrong.
Are we hurting for cap space???? No. So it makes no sense at all to cut him unless we need that cap money…for example if we need it to get a specific free agent…and you don’t cut him UNTIL AFTER you get that free agent. You know why? Because there really is no cap yet.
Teams are allowed to be over the cap until a certain date. Newsflash…free agency has already started. Some of Winslow’s money is now guaranteed. It hurts nothing to keep him until a replacement is signed…or a trade comes along.
And there has been nothing more mentioned of trade talks, not even of the one rumored to have happened. Don’t be too sure the rumor was true.
Oh, and by the way…when is the last off season that we WERE NOT told we would run the ball more? The Dungy years? How many yards did Eli have passing this year??? Think about it.
March 18th, 2012 at 2:28 am
@Hawaiian It is silly, isn’t it. In that case, our best blockers are Penn, Zuttah, Nicks, Joseph, and Trueblood therfoer they should all block on kick returns because blocking is blocking regardless of position or circumstance.
@Capt Tim I failed to post that I mostly agree with your most recent post on the passing game. I only meant to argue why you found it necessary to argue whether we will run or pass first.
March 18th, 2012 at 2:29 am
I thought it said “how will kellen winslow fit in new orleans” when i first logged in, I thought he had been traded, then I realized waht it really said, guess that’s what i get for staying up so late.
March 18th, 2012 at 2:34 am
A recent thought to myself is, ‘how much is Freeman’s multiple right arm/hand injuries are to blame for his poor throws?”
After watching just the NFL Network highlights of every seasons game, Freeman threw many picks out of desperation from being coupled with poor pass blocking but some of his throws did not look like a healthy NFL QB throw. Not from his stance, but as the ball was released from his hand.
March 18th, 2012 at 2:38 am
That last post was a concrete grammatical failure. Damn you, Glenfiddich!
March 18th, 2012 at 3:18 am
Have a nice day- I didn’t say Coach Schiano plans to build a ” grinder” offense.
Nor do I believe that he plans to.
I stated that if you think that is the plan for the team- then it will fail
I believe he plans to build the team around Freeman
Which is why Winslow is more important than some 290 guard reject at TE.
We have a weapon at TE. That’s what ya want . See the Non blocking TEs I listed in my post. Winslow rates right up there with ’em
No harm- enjoy yer scotch- ya convinced me ta do a slow Wild turkey tumbler myself!
Go Bucs.
And thanks Hawaiian! You remain the class of the site
March 18th, 2012 at 3:37 am
@Capt Tim Yeah, I went overboard. My apologies.
I did like your ideas on Winslow BTW.
Cheers to the Turkey! Hopefully this one is a bit faster 😉
March 18th, 2012 at 4:05 am
One thing I have to admit, this site is a lot more fun when we get to argue with each other. Tomorrow, perhaps Joe should do another Talib article, so me and Captain Tim can duke it out again, lol. Then on Monday, I’m thinking he should discuss GMC. Then he could spend Tuesday discussing us drafting Trent Richardson. And then maybe for old time’s sake, we could talk about Barrett Ruud coming back to Tampa. Sounds like a great start to a week, don’t you think?
March 18th, 2012 at 7:39 am
Today’s NFL is no different than the NFL when teams won with a tandem of good running and good passing. Emmitt Smith, Troy Aikman, Michael Irvin for the Cowboys….etc. It’s all about ball control. Ball control wins games. Eating up the clock and scoring points wins games. Good defense wins games. Mark my words…Winslow is gone. I’ll be shocked if he’s not.
March 18th, 2012 at 8:41 am
@Bobby
You would think that’s the case but it’s not. Jimmy Johnson, Joe Gibbs, etc thought so, and turtle failed when they tried coaching again. Why? Because the “run first” mentality of old cannot keep up with the passing league of today’s NFL.
We have QBs throwing for 5,000 yards…three in one year. That’s unprecedented. And the reasons are the new rules protecting GBs & WRs. When the numbers were closer, having a good running game would keep the ball out of opposing defenses hands…but that does no good if QBs are scoring on nearly possession.
That’s why many teams end up playing catchup.
I think running certainly has its place, but not like it use to. Simply put…big passing plays sell tickets. That’s why the league is making it harder on defenses.
March 18th, 2012 at 8:49 am
@Hawaiian – what’s there to ‘argue’ about nowadays?
Josh Freeman is a ‘mini’ Tom Brady, JVackson is the next Andre Johnson and the Bucs are going to score 60 points a game now right?
Just enjoy this brief respite when all teams in the NFL are “equal” because until and unless the Bucs do something about their anemic defense they are still poised to reign in the NFC South Cellar.
Sure the Bucs may score more but right now Cam Newton, Drew Brees and Matty Ice are still going to carve up the Bucs LB corp. Sorry but counting on ANOTHER rookie to work with Mason Foster doesn’t excite me.
Oh for the days of Dungy, when defensive players were highly sought after and fans appreciated it….sigh!
March 18th, 2012 at 8:52 am
@Pete – sure, some of the rules have made it more difficult on the defenses to cover the WR’s and TE’s but I believe that the main reason for 3 QB’s passing for 5,000 yards is this – all teams spend more and more emphesis on offense and pay lip service to the defense.
March 18th, 2012 at 8:53 am
Dominik on not yet addressing the linebacker position in free agency:
“Again, I think we’re at the tail end of what we’re doing in free agency already. Certainly we have some players who will have the opportunity to see what they can do at certain positions. I know we’re talking to the team about Mason Foster being the Mike linebacker of this team. And I think the coaching staff that has been in here evaluating that tape feels like he has a great opportunity to keep the green dot and stay as the middle linebacker.”
Wonder what it feels like being wrong…
March 18th, 2012 at 8:55 am
Demar Dotson can block and play tight end. He was a basketball player, which you can’t play without good hands, so he can probably catch too. The problem is that Greg Olson is an idiot.
March 18th, 2012 at 8:56 am
Would have said was, but sure he still is, and will always be……. an idiot.
March 18th, 2012 at 9:16 am
@BigMac
Quit while you’re ahead buddy lol
March 18th, 2012 at 9:21 am
@Pete
At best that’s just posturing by Dom leaving a deal to be made with Tulloch/Lofton/Hawthorne. Everything is still fluid this point. If push comes to shove Dom could bring in Erin Henderson to play Will and keep Foster at Mike.
March 18th, 2012 at 9:40 am
Gentlemen, I joined this debate last night and it’s continued into today. There have many good comments about the pros and cons of Winslow’s continued contribution to the Bucs. But there is only one real issue here – Did the Bucs attempt to trade Winslow or not?
I’m all in and I believe that they did. Capt. Tim is all in and he believes that they didn’t. Time will tell. If they did, he’s a dead man walking. They have already made up their minds. They weren’t waiting to get a replacement. They weren’t waiting until the draft to decide. They either pulled that trigger or they didn’t.
You can’t have it both ways. There have been no denials from Chicago, Winslow, the Bucs or anybody reporting on the Bucs. So all of the comments for or against are moot. The Bucs get the last word and I think they have spoken! Stay tuned!
March 18th, 2012 at 9:46 am
Hawaiian- lol
March 18th, 2012 at 10:34 am
I too happen to believe that they did try to trade Winslow and that tells me that they are going a different direction. I know a lot of people believe this isn’t going to happen but then a lot of people didn’t believe the Bucs were going to spend money in FA either….
As far as the LB situation….after all the moves that Dom has made do you actually believe that he isn’t aware of our LB situation?? C’mon man! It will be addressed. Just give it time. It’s another 5 weeks till the draft. I believe they still have their eye of Lofton. He just needs to realize that he isn’t going to get paid any more than the Bucs have already offered him. Personally, I’d rather have Tulloch.
March 18th, 2012 at 10:57 am
Next morning responses:
@Captain Tim
Are you just making things up?
You said “Jermichael Finley.Rob Gronkoski. Tony Gonzales. Vernon Davis. Alex Hernandez. Jimmy Graham.
Not a friggin decent blocker in the bunch”
Since when did Rob Gronkoski, Tony Gonzales, & Vernon Davis become poor blocking TE’s?
You’re just making up pure absolute nonsense.
@Sensible
Jacob Tamme is not an H-back, he was asked to play FB due to injury because of his excellent blocking skills. He’s a top notch special teams player that is capable of practicing for many years ahead.
March 19th, 2012 at 4:48 am
It Think we will keep Winslow possibly one more year if we can’t trade him. And I would like to reiterate that freeman forced passes to Winslow because he had no dump off receiver after Grahm went down. Had we a dump off receiver for Freeman when all our receivers were covered he wouldn’t have forced so many passes to Winslow. And the Int to touchdown ratio would be a lot better. The Vincent Jackson signing will help all the receivers be better and maybe Freeman won’t have to use the dump off guy as much.
March 19th, 2012 at 9:37 am
As the NFL has became the PASS only league. Why not just cut all of the RB’s on our roster? That way we can just pass the d@mn ball to all of our receivers. We won’t need to run the ball ever …. Then we can have lots of three and outs, if we don’t have catches on every pass…
That said, I think we will be a pound the rock play action pass to the deep half of the field team. Will that be successful, time always tells. We now have a pair of mauling guards and a stout fluid center, with a WR who should be able to go deep and open up underneath for other WR and TE, with us pounding the rock behind the interior of our line we can work the play action pass to our advantage. But only if we run the d@mn ball effectively. Does that mean we will have 35-40 run plays a game, I doubt it, but 25-30 runs a game YES! Will we see more games with us running 10-15 times in a game or less NO!
I like the comment about Dotson, he can block and should have good hands being a basketball player. Tackle Eligible on every play?
March 19th, 2012 at 10:18 am
Hey guys I am glad to see so many people into football already. I am the one who wrote to Pat about this and for the people saying that Winlsow didn’t show an attitude problem are crazy. He was yelling in the hudles, he tried to fight every single person who tackled him, he argued with the refs after every dropped pass and tackle. They guy isn’t a good blocker and dropped a lot of passes. Yeah some were forced and that happens but he did still drop a lot that hit him in the hands. He also couldn’t stay on the field enough. After he would make a catch or go on a deep route he would come to the sidelines to catch his breath. Yeah Galloway took practices off but he was still running and working out. He was never out of shape and still is in shape now. Stocker is a heck of a TE. I am a Vols fan so I have seen him play for a few years now when he was with UT and I loved it when the Bucs picked him. The injuries were terrible and hope they don’t cause issues but he was a solid TE who can catch and block better than K2. Plus if K2 is talking that much and complaining that much on the field and in the hudles I find it hard to believe he is a great teammate in the locker room. I would much rather see Tamme come in and he and Stocker take over and save the money we owe on him and get him out before he is a bigger hassle. I am not a Winslow hater. Hell I have a Winslow authentic jersey but if you can’t see he is a problem you can’t be watching the games very close.