“Price Tag Is The Issue”
January 25th, 2011
So what’s a quality 27-year-old right guard worth when he’s been hurt two of the past three seasons and isn’t much of a zone blocker?
The Bucs are going to find out when Davin Joseph hits the free agent market, believes Stephen Holder of the St. Pete Times.
“They do want him back. Can they afford him? That’s the problem. We don’t know the cost,” Holder told draft guru Justin Pawlowski on WDAE-AM 620 on Saturday. “Price tag is the issue.”
Of course, the Bucs could drop the franchise tag on Joseph, effectively taking him off the market and paying him a massive one-year deal to see if he can stay healthy. But it’s unclear how franchising players will play out with the labor strife. Joe doubts the Bucs would go the franchise route with Joseph anyway, but it wouldn’t be shocking.
This, as Joe has written before, is a brutally tough call for the Bucs: How much do you value a guy that’s missed nine games in three years with foot issues when you have capable Derek Hardman and Jeremy Zuttah behind him on the depth chart?
Maybe it’s better to invest in a more durable dude.
January 25th, 2011 at 11:27 am
Yeah that franchise tag worked so well the last time the Bucs used it on Antonio Bryant – $9.7 million wasted
January 25th, 2011 at 11:30 am
I like Davin Joseph. Think scheme/coaching has hurt him a Lil the last few years. But he was always heavy for his frame. It’s gonna be a tough decission to keep him or not. Glad I don’t have to make it!
January 25th, 2011 at 11:43 am
Keep him, actually, make him a reasonable offer now and see what happens.
January 25th, 2011 at 11:47 am
saw on buccaneers.com that we just hired the former Vikings O-line coach as our O-line guy. Maybe we wait and let him evaluate what he’s got.
January 25th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
He’s a holdover from the Gruden years. I thought he was not worth being picked in the first round and we have seen how many misses Gruden has had in the first round. It’s time to let him go and draft his replacement.
January 25th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
Yea Mike, I’m also thinking Pat Morris will have some say in this even though he is new.
Its obvious Davin will test the market and will get an offer for more than he is worth. Wait to see what that number is and offer something reasonable lower.
If he walks, we would know then we shouldn’t have wanted him anyway. But if he chooses to come back, it will show he is committed to the team and will be worth every penny then.
I know people will say who am I to criticize him leaving for more money, but if a man makes a life changing decision over a 3.5 mil/yr contract vs. a 3.2 mil/yr (you get the point) contract, I say he isn’t worth keeping.
January 25th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
… unless he is going to a championship level team of course. The Bucs are full of potential, and I want to keep Davin if he believes in this team like I do.
January 25th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
I like Joseph and hope they keep him and Faine.
Trueblood is probably gone.
With Hardman and Zuttah and Carter and Joseph the OG position is set. They can focus on drafting an OT in round 3-4.
Just my opinon.
Sure wish they would get this CBA settled…
January 25th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
Price tag is the issue? Joseph is a valuable commodity that we really can’t afford to lose. bucs are 50+ Million under a potential CBA floor…. The Bucs motis is to draft, develop players and keep the players that do develop into good players. Not replace with any cheaper alternatives. Management like that will result in developing players making mistakes, inconsistency and thin depth.
Make is man a fair offer BEFORE the CBA (?) and get it done. Also, repeat when necessary i.e. Ruud, Black, Crowder, Gilmore, Hayward, Spurlock
Who should the Bucs Franchise?
January 25th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
I agree with k1ngAdroc on this one. If they are ALREADY under the salary FLOOR, pay what needs to be paid, bring the good ones back, draft the rest.
January 25th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
I am shocked that anyone would believe that money influences decisions at One Buc Place.
January 25th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
I’m shocked that eric is still beating the same tired old drum after all this time.
January 25th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
I say let Bruce Allen give him the $120 million contract and get it over with already.
January 25th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Sign him. Sign him now.
January 25th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
If the Bucs won’t re-sign an ‘in house’ developed 1st round pick, Pro Bowl guard, who is young only 27, then there is a f—ing hope from the Glazerhouses.
Same with Barrett Ruud. Unless we have a replacement, how do you let that experience walk with NO viable replacement? No different than Donald Penn. No alternative. The only way for the Bucs to gain leverage would be to bring in guys that could eventually replace the veterans… and the Bucs vets are YOUNG. If you want to replace Ruud, Joseph et al, then those guys should have already been drafted. Now, they should re-sign to an evasive deal disguised as long term, and then draft the replacement.
With our needs being LB and DE, it’s pretty easy decision to re-sign Joseph.
January 25th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
no hope is what it should have been. Damn it Joe, when are you gonna let us edit our comments?
January 25th, 2011 at 2:51 pm
aravind,
Zuttah’s a “holdover” from the old regime, let’s get rid of him then too! 60% of the old regime’s 1st round draft picks are still on the team(Caddy, Davin, Talib). Should we get rid of Talib, cause he was an old regime pick? Hayes? Black? What about our back-up QB?
January 25th, 2011 at 2:55 pm
Previously, you sheep were arguing in defense of the glazer’s that “they are not being cheap they are just saving up for future free agent’s like Davin Joseph.” Now, since it appears that the Glazerhouses may allow this pro-bowl left guard to leave because the price tag is too high, you sheep now shift gears and say “oh, he is injury probem, or he is a little heavy for hs frame or blah blah blah.”
You sheep are SO STOCKHOLM SYNDROMED. The odds of finding an upgrade, or equivalent, is very slim. This would clearly ONLY be a cost-savings move.
SHAKE LOOSE OF THE MENTAL CONTROL THAT THIS ORG HAS OVER YOU.
You arent writing the check. They should re-sign all quality free agents and add both draft picks and UFA’s / trades whatever to improve the roster.
This team is 32nd in payroll and tens of millions UNDER the old cap floor.
January 25th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
or right guard . .
January 25th, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Davin Joseph is seriously OVERRATED by the Bucs fans and the media. He gets little to no push in running game, gives up pressures to scrubs like Geno Atkins and over the hill Fred Robbins. He has been doing that for last two seasons and Zone Blocking scheme is an excuse I heard (not sure what it has to do with pass protection).
January 25th, 2011 at 3:57 pm
I dont care when he was drafted, or by whom. What is important to me is- is he a great player? Is he injury prone? Was there a fall off when he was put of the line up? We played the Saints twice. Once with Joseph, once without. Our line played the Saints much better the second time, when Joseph didn’t play. Hardman is Bigger, will mature into a larger, Stronger player. I thought the line played it’s best with Penn and Lee at tackle, Larsen and Hardman at guard, and Zuttah at center. The injury prone thing is a big issue, as a guard who plays 8 games a season prevents continuity in the line play. The concern with Joseph out of college was that he was 313#, on a 6’2″ smallish frame. Overbuilt bodies tend to develop base problems.so the question becomes- how much is a 8 game a season, smallish guard worth? Especially when the player who took his place is probably a better guard! Another huge advantage to Freeman is his height. It allows us to use larger Guards and centers, as he can still see/throw over them. I think hardman and Carter will end up being our Guards, and Penn/ Dotson the tackles. Larsen will fight it out with Zuttah at center, with the loser being the backup at both Guard and center
January 25th, 2011 at 4:12 pm
I also don’t consider money to often, as spending someone else’s Money is not my job. But if you have a question about the low payroll, consider this. Half the Veterans on the Team are free agents. Who would you hang the franchise tag on? I can’t think of any one of them who is even CLOSE to being top ten in the league- not one repeat probowler. None of them probowlers this year, on a 10-6 team. Raheem doesn’t get enough credit for turning this team around. He truly didn’t have much to work with!!
January 25th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
Guest#27:
LOL. No way man! This place would turn into a total zoo if Joe allowed that. 🙂
January 25th, 2011 at 4:29 pm
You dont use the franchise tag only if someone is a top 10 player. You use it to keep a player that you haven’t given up on an additional year so that he doesn’t leave via free agency.
I doubt that many would say that Antonio Bryant was a top 10 receiver when the bucs franchised him. They just weren’t sure what to do with him so they tagged him and waited a year (then he got hurt, the team went 3-13, the Bengals paid him a bunch) etc.
Davin Joseph is a top 10 Guard. Ruud is a top 10 MLB. Dont have the rest of the FA list in front of me: Trueblood is obviously not, Talib certainly is but I don’t think that he is a FA. None of our linemen are any good at this point, Crowder and Bennett are decent.
Jeff Faine is a top 10 ceneter but for injuries. Winslow is a top 10 WR but I know that he has team options which may not be exercised.
Actually, they have more top 10 players than I originally thought.
January 25th, 2011 at 4:43 pm
I know this isn’t high level football but I played LG in HS, so I tend to single out the OLine sometimes when I’m watching the game instead of watching the ball. Anyone posting anything contrary to signing Davin Joseph must not be paying attention to what he does for this team. Yes, Zuttah and Hardman played well, but there was definitely a dropoff when Joseph got hurt. And what happens if Zuttah or Hardman end up on the DL? The next man up routine won’t work forever.
By the way, I think Joseph’s mom had an affair with a Rhino. I have no other way to explain that man-beast.
January 25th, 2011 at 5:30 pm
Thomas,
When did Davin Joseph make the pro-bowl?
January 25th, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Never mind i see now it was 08.
January 25th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
Baaaaa
January 25th, 2011 at 5:49 pm
Its already a zoo!
January 25th, 2011 at 5:59 pm
Spot on Capt. Tim.
@Thomas: Receivers like Antonio Bryant (0f 2008 performance) are hard to come by. True, Ruud is a top 10 MLB in a 4-3 scheme, but like Bryant, Ruud is not a 1 season wonder. Our staff knows what they will be getting from Ruud, that is why he will not be franchise tagged. He will either be offered a contract or let go.
Davin Joseph is a name with some star value, thanks to our fan base that just look at him as a 1st round pick and a probowl caliber player, but in reality, he is not even a solid starter. He is one of the most expendable guys among our FAs if you ask me. The only way he stays is if he agrees for a cheaper contract (which might not happen).
January 25th, 2011 at 6:20 pm
The Glazers are not going to break the bank. I think everyone, including us “sheep” know that. However, they will pay the players if they feel they are worth it. Donald Penn, Kellen Winslow, and Jeff Faine are a few examples. However, they are not going to overpay for players. No matter if you like it or not, that is a good business decision.
As for Joseph, it’s funny how Thomas already assumes we are going to let him go. So I’m assuming if we do end up paying him, you are going to come back on the site and admit you were wrong? Yeah right, right after it snows in Hawaii. And I like Ruud, but he is not a top 10 LB, not even close. I will grant you that he is a top 10 Tampa 2 MLB. If it was your money, would you pay him a ton of money? I wouldn’t.
January 25th, 2011 at 7:21 pm
Exactly- that’s what the franchise tag does, it ties Up a player, by guaranting him a top salary for his position. All the guys worthy of that are first year players or rookies. Not many(any? Talib and??) vets worth high dollar, and that’s just pathetic. We ought to tar and feather that Lil Gruden Ass for deleting this team of talent the way he did!!!
January 25th, 2011 at 7:45 pm
There’s nothing wrong with Davin Joseph for crying out loud. The guy isn’t great but he’s good enough. Come on. Does anyone think “Derek Hardman” is really the answer?
Let Joseph go and we have yet another huge hole to fill when we already have enough holes as it is on our team. We don’t need to let a solid veteran starter go only to be replaced by another unproven rookie who would be granted the starting job immediately. Aren’t we trying to make a playoff push next year? If we are, then we need to keep the good players that we currently have on our team and then of course add to the talent in FA (yes the evil free agency) and the draft.
Guys, we have a much tougher schedule next year. Much tougher! We’re not going to be bailed out by another easy schedule again.
How can the Glazers possibly go cheap this offseason? Other than giving Penn a contract that he fought for, they’ve literally spent no money the past several years on talent. They’re just lucky they have Raheem and Dom, because most teams would have losing records with the amount of rookies we had this year. Raheem and Dom know how to develop youngsters so that’s why we were able to have a nice season this year. This team is capable of going a long way next year if they decide to open their wallets and bring in some free agents to push us over the top. We already have a great, young foundation in place.
January 25th, 2011 at 9:23 pm
That great young nucleas thing can be very fleating.
Everyone thought that in 79.
January 25th, 2011 at 10:32 pm
I say sign him. The last thing we need is a problem on the O-Line. With a new coach in that room, it could make all the difference. Davin is a beast that we should stick with.
January 25th, 2011 at 11:18 pm
8 games a year is a beast? Not quite. Penn is a beast, Joseph is a high draft pick, who has underachieved, and now is proven to be injury prone. Keep him , but with the knowledge that he probably will be a backup! He’s had his chances. Time to move foward. That group of starters has had enough chances, and let us down to long!! “Lindy sports” listed them as a the single most underachieving unit in the NFL!” in their Draft magazine. Time to play the best O-line, not the highest Drafted linemen.
January 26th, 2011 at 1:00 am
It’s really simple…. The line blocked better because a certain running back was makin a cut and hitting the hole like a friggin sledgehammer!!! Watch the tape. Buc’s Oline got WAY more aggressive when LGB ran the rock….
I love Caddie, but that’s the TRUTH
Joesph is a great player and will be a pro-bowler again. His best years are ahead of him. Hardman is a backup. A good one, but a backup.
Anyone who questions Zuttah’s worth.. well, that would make me question them. He can play every position on the line well enough to start. what’s that i hear? ((but he lost his job to Vincent)) you see how that worked out. that was one too many ego’s
The offense got a real smashmouth, nasty disposition about them during the 2nd half of the season, AND we could make plays over the top! We should all hope they keep as many OL players as possible, develop the guys, work a hybrid system and run OVER people next year.
We need to be able to get that final yard when it counts. We couldn’t with our replacements and that’s why we are talking about the draft right now.
Just like Ra’s blueprint…. the Stillers
January 26th, 2011 at 7:14 am
“the offense got a real smashmouth, nasty disposition about them in the second half of the season!” . Yes, once TrueBlood,Joseph, And Faine were done, our line was very effective AND Physical ! You see my point. Blount had his best averages with that line. Our offense managed to out Rush the opposition in those games. Freeman had high QB ratings. Unless you guys think all those numbers are lies, and all the experts who say our vets are under achievers are wrong, then all of that tells you that our Vet O-lineman haven’t lived up to their draft spots, salaries, or starting job. When an undrafted rookie, who has been on the practice squad less than a season, out performs you- you need to be replaced!
January 26th, 2011 at 9:23 am
CapTim,
How do you get 8 games a year? Last time I checked, when you play in 68 games for 5 years, it comes out to 13+ ga,es a year! I don’t mind opinions, but lets try and keep facts….actually facts!
January 26th, 2011 at 9:24 am
Funny, how “the stats are for losers” goes out the window in the off-season! LOL!
January 26th, 2011 at 11:56 am
running the ball is a true team effort and a mentality Tim. Everyone has a job to do to be successful. The running back’s job is to hit the hole and run through arm tackles here, make a cut and make someone miss there.
I think the line played better with a better running back behind them. The groups mentality changed, and it wasn’t b/c of the newbies upfront. It’s my opinion the line will have even more success with the better athletes back in there respectful positions. Getting PT is invaluable though and now the Bucs have experienced depth at that position (except for TE, although i like Purvis)