Bucs Don’t Want Sacks
November 16th, 2010
Bucs fans have grown so angry over the lack of heat the defensive line has put on opposing quarterbacks, so unnerved they’re ready to toss a warm $7 beer onto the field of the CITS.
The fact the Bucs are dead last in the NFL in sacks from their defensive linemen — last! — may be on purpose.
No, Joe’s not hitting the bourbon this early in the morning. Joe’s completely sober. Joe gets this information from none other than Steve White.
In his recent “Bull Rush” column on his blog, “Passing on the Game,” White, who logged six years with Rod Marinelli as a Bucs defensive end, details how the Bucs are using a 3-3-5 defensive set on third downs and that formation simply cannot produce sacks from the front line.
Joe will let Steve explain:
First its obvious that all the talk about showcasing Gerald McCoy last week was just that, talk. The Bucs didn’t do anything new that could possibly be construed as “showcasing” his talents as far as pass rushing goes and if anything to me they just stayed the course.
Second because we are winning more than we are losing I am willing to accept that the Bucs will continue to feature a 3-3-5 alignment. What I am not willing to accept is the notion that they ALSO care about getting sacks. The two are just about mutually exclusive at this point. If they want to keep running the 3-3-5 that’s fine, but at least admit that the goal in that case is to cover, not pressure the quarterback.
Yesterday out of 14 non two minute 3rd down plays the Bucs used a 3 man line 9 times. That doesn’t mean that they only rushed 3, but it does mean only 3 defensive linemen were in the game. All year they have run the same thing and they had 1 sack to show for it from Quincy Black. Now they have 2 thanks to Ronde Barber. So you do the math, two sacks in 9 games, none by a defensive lineman, but they used it 9 out of 14 times on third down against the Panthers.
And there you have it. There’s the reason why the Bucs are so pitiful in racking up sacks. It’s the formation that Todd Wash (Raheem Morris?) is using. It’s the mentality: cover, not pressure.
Please click on the link above and read Steve’s entire column. Educate yourself!
November 16th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
As always Steve is right on point. I like Rah as the Head Coach, but we may really need a real defensive coordinator in Tampa.
November 16th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
As long as they keep winning, I do not care.
November 16th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Listen, I understand that the Bucs are not getting pressure on the QB and that our sack total is particularly disturbing given that the pass rush has always been the strength of our past defenses.
But people need to understand that the Bucs just don’t have the talent level on the D-Line right now to bring any sort of pressure, regardless of the scheme. Our defensive playmakers are in the secondary, so the coaching staff is simply playing to the strengths of this team. The “Cover, Not Pressure” mentality is a direct attributed to this.
Obviously, if we want to hang with the elite teams in this league we are going to have to establish some sort of consistent QB pressure but it’s just not in the cards for the Bucs, this year at least. The coaching staff has accepted this and is going with what “works” (and I use that term loosely…)
November 16th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
What insightful numbers.
Basically the D-line doesn’t have the opportunity to get sacks because they aren’t in there on passing downs. Buuut they are in on rushing downs and still can’t stop the run.
Wonder if all the substitutions alone are wearing the d line down… always running to and from the sidelines.
November 16th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
hey Joe just heard Baltimore game got flexed to 4 15 and its gonna be nationaly telivised
November 16th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
We are not leading the league in sacks.. Who cares?? We are leading the league in interceptions!! The Bucs are playing a little game I like to call
“MY BALL!!!” Remember, you don’t score on sacks, its a loser stat. For instance, I know we are 2-7 but we lead the league in sacks!?!? I would rather lead the league in takeaways and WINS! GO bucs! How do all you bandwagoners like the Kool-Aid? I love it.
November 16th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
I keep hearing people say we need a DC. We have one in Raheem, and a very good one at that. We must remember what he has to work with on the DL, McCoy and Price(IR)…that’s IT. He’s proven very well in game planning and coaching, but any coach is only going to be as good as the players executing. ALL games start in the trenches, they (OL\DL) make everyone around them better.
November 16th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Idiots! What Raheem Morris is doing, as I’ve been screaming for a month, is using his experienced secondary to cover for his inexperienced D-line. Which ,for the morons that don’t understand that, is friggin genius! Unless you prefer to be running a 4-3-4, and be at 3-6, instead of 6-3!! Every Defensive Co-ordinator in the NFL is requesting Tampa Bay Film. It’s going to change the game. Now you can still win with a poor D-line.! That’s why Raheem will win Coach of the Year! And some of you morons think it’s a bad thing!, like having 12 sacks, and 6 losses is an improvement. I’ve been saying for weeks that this is the reason that McCoy isn’t getting Sacks! He’s playing Nose tackle on a 3 man line! And frequently, White drops into coverage also!
That’s why we lead the league in interceptions!
November 16th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Bucfan66, if your talent is in your secondary then why would you run a 3-3-5?? why have 5 men in coverage if they are so talented? That doesnt make sense… If your secondary is so talented then you should be able to blitz more and leave LESS men in coverage. You play the 3-3-5 when you have talented linebackers and d-line man, make sense? we should be playing the 4-3 on 3rd downs…since our secondary is so talented. The 3-3-5 is garbage. Playing the saints and colts it might be effective but thats it.
November 16th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
“Idiots! What Raheem Morris is doing, as I’ve been screaming for a month, is using his experienced secondary to cover for his inexperienced D-line. Which ,for the morons that don’t understand that, is friggin genius! Unless you prefer to be running a 4-3-4, and be at 3-6, instead of 6-3!! Every Defensive Co-ordinator in the NFL is requesting Tampa Bay Film. It’s going to change the game. Now you can still win with a poor D-line.! That’s why Raheem will win Coach of the Year! And some of you morons think it’s a bad thing!, like having 12 sacks, and 6 losses is an improvement. I’ve been saying for weeks that this is the reason that McCoy isn’t getting Sacks! He’s playing Nose tackle on a 3 man line! And frequently, White drops into coverage also!
That’s why we lead the league in interceptions!”
LMFAO… yeah our offense has nothing to do with us being 6-3? As much as we run the 3-3-5 (5 men in coverage) we better be first in interceptions! unfortunatley, because we have so many men in coverage we cant stop the run…oh and our pass def is ranked 6th because why pass when any third string RB can run the ball on us. raheem is NOT playing to our strengths.
November 16th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Pussy99- don’t worry. You didn’t know a thing about a 3-3-6 defense until right now, cause someone had ta tell you! If you couldn’t look at the field, and tell we were running it, then you reaaaaally don’t knowenough about the game rosebuds what we should, or shouldn’t be doing! Lmao!
November 16th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Captain Tim, what are you talking about? Almost on every 3-3-5 occasion, we rush our OLB, so how many rushers has it become? 4. Steve White has said MANY times, if you are planning to rush 4 defenders, why do it with a LB and 3 linemen, why not go with 4 linemen? Obviously linemen are a LOT better than LBs in shedding their tackles and getting to QBs.
It was only last game that we ran 3-3-5 many times and did not blitz an OLB that many times. Might have to do with the fact that Quincy was not playing as he is usually the guy that rushes QBs in a 3-3-5 alignment.
November 16th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Poser99,
” if your talent is in your secondary then why would you run a 3-3-5?? why have 5 men in coverage if they are so talented”
Let me spell it out for you. You want the most talented guys on the field. If you don’t have linemen who can get pressure then why have them on the field? If your most talented players are in the secondary then you put more of those playmakers on the field at one time.
Five playmakers in the secondary or 3 stiffs and Gerald Mccoy on the line? Sounds like a no brainer to me.
November 16th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Capt. Tim:
So Steve White’s an idiot?
November 16th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Maybe, just maybe Rah realizes that his DEs are horrible and can’t get to the QB, so he goes with the 3-3-5 to improve coverage, keep the QB geussing, and figures he has a better chance of getting pressure with a random blitzing LB than he does with a useless DE that can’t win a one on one match up with anyone.
Just a thought.
The only problem is our LBs are also lousy rushers and can’t shed a block to save thier life. So we still get no pressure and can’t stop anyone on 3rd down. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the 3-3-5, especially when one of the 5 DBs is a guy like Barber or Grimm who can be like a 4th LB just as much as a 5th DB. We just need better LBs that can actually rush the passer. Rah sees this and that’s why he has made some statements lately about how our defense will not be a great defense this year. He knows he needs some new toys to bring his vision to life.
November 16th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Eh, sorry, that should have been posey, and decide.
November 16th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Also, why does everyone seem to think Geno Hayes is so good? We are talking about a LB that is so small, he’s actually smaller than our SS Sean Jones. A guy that gets run over every game and lead all OLBs last year in broken tackles. A guy that still looks like a highschool kid in his 3rd year in the NFL. A 6th round pick that was handed the job when Brooks was let go.
He makes some great plays now and then, but not consistantly. I see him being a liability much more often than I seem him making big game changing plays. I think Black is fine on the other side, but I hope we don’t stop at replacing Ruud at MLB. I hope we sign or draft some real competition for Hayes as well. We need a play maker at that spot and this kid just ain’t gettin it done.
November 16th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
JDouble, much like you, I never understand the Geno Hayes love. Might have to do with FSU/Florida state homerism, I don’t know.
November 16th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
No Joe, damn it! Steve White is saying exactly what I’ve been saying for a month! Everytime there is a post about how McCoy isn’t getting Sacks! I’ve posted that it’s because we are running a 3–3-6. and really, even that isn’t accurate! Because White and Hayes frequently drop into coverage too! I’ve said for over a month! Everytime somebody starts crying that McCoy isn’t producing! How the F.%#k can he, when he’s basically a two man rush!! And there are still people here that don’t get it! And other ones who think we are doing it by mistake! Instead of brilliantly compensating for a rookie D-line! So how do you get from there, to saying I’m calling Steve white an idiot?!? Ain’t no bridge between those two! I’m glad he’s pointing out that McCoy is doing just fine, and helping the team. He isn’t getting Sacks because of the scheme- which Is fine! Wins are waaay better than stats- which we all know are for LOSERS! I’m glad Steve said, because everyone will believe it now, and meybe- MEYBE-Get off McCoys case!! No one listened when I said it. Thus the “Idiots” comment!
November 16th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
I think that has something to do with it Jonny, but if we have to fall in love with an FSU LB, I’d rather give Dekoda Watson a shot.
With Hayes you get some splash plays now and then, but most of the time he is invisible, get ran over or blocked out of the play. I’d rather have a LB that is consistantly good…then a guy like Hayes that looks amazing 10% or the time, and Mediocre at best the other 90%. What good is a pick six every blue moon if you’re getting blown up every other play and can’t stop a RB?
November 16th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
Tim what is a 3-3-6? Can only be 11 guys on the field buddy.
November 16th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
“Everytime there is a post about how McCoy isn’t getting Sacks! I’ve posted that it’s because we are running a 3–3-6. and really, even that isn’t accurate!” You complete kill any merit you might drum up with your “3-3-6” talk. No such thing unless you like ‘too many men’ penalties. Once is an accident, you’ve written it twice. Don’t think for a second there isn’t a DC that would prefer pressure with the DL. So while your idea has some merit, I don’t think that is what Raheem is trying to do (masking the DL short comings).
November 16th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
You know guys, if Raheem would just fix this, we could all stop arguing.
Why? Why? Oh God please tell me Whyyyyyyyyy????
Does anyone remember the show “The Real McCoys”? Garsh Darnit!!!
November 16th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
..and I might add, it’s very rare 3 DL get any pressure worth talking about, especially our DL. So why not try a 2-4-5 and really F with the other team? Better yet, have the 2 rush the passer on the QB’s throwing arm forcing him to run the opposite way and have one of the ‘4’ be a QB spy?
November 16th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
I kid of course…
November 16th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Jdouble,
Maybe CaptTimLaPue is from Montreal or Ontario, eh! They play with 12 players up there, eh!
November 16th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
JDouble- what Raheem is doing is this. He is telling offenses that you can run on us all day long. But you can not pass. If you can run the ball 12-14 times, without a penalty or fumble – go ahead! Everyone thought Hayes would be Brooks- he isn’t
November 16th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
I heard the University of Tennessee runs a 3-3-7, but only in Goal Line defense.
November 16th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
Damn it! Ok, but it’s really a 3-2-6! Because Hayes is ALWAYS in coverage! BucFanJeff- did ya read the dang article at all? It says that is exactly what Raheem is doing! My gifts are truly wasted here. It’s like explaining nuclear physics to a fence post! Lol
November 16th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Yes I read it, but it’s not fact – it’s a blog opinion. Raheem has been running the 3-3-5 all season. You can’t tell me he knew then how bad our pass rush would suck. I would be willing to bet he thought it would be better than average, getting pressure with 3 and forcing mistakes into our 3-5 part of 3-3-5. Instead, we get no pressure and the 3-3-5 hasn’t been all it’s designed up to be. I’m not knocking you…just playful ribbing…for your pleasure.
November 16th, 2010 at 5:29 pm
How about a 1-5-5. GMC rushing with 5 LB’s and 5 DB’s in coverage. Its going to revolutionize the NFL.
November 16th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
@Capt Tim
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Im not foosball savvy but i know we are kicking ass in interceptions.
To be where we are now with the D we have is fantastic DC job. We have very little talent and our D line is not performing, yet were doing pretty damn good.
Go RAH!!
Next year[?] players will want to come back to tampa and play for our offense AND defense. its going to be like the good ‘ol days when players wanted to be here.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:17 pm
Booty trap- thank you, thank you,thank you! It’s actually something I have never seen in the NFL. Human nature is to try and fortify your weaknesses. Raheem has actually taken a weakness, and made it worse! He did so in order to strengthen a strength! And it’s working. We’ve seen in several of our wins. Teams rush for 5 yards every time, marching down the field. Then, an offside or holding call, and we either stop them, or they try to throw. Either one works for me. Teams just don’t have the patience or ability to sustain a 12-14 play drive on the ground. They just can’t. It’s really funny. We will have terrible stats against the run- we would have anyway! We won’t get Sacks- not many with this line anyway!, but now, we Win! It’s really becoming the talk of DC’s around the league! Raheem said in preseason that this line would struggle, and that this defense was a year away. He said it again recently! He said our stats would suck, but we would play “bend but don’t Break”. It’s just like he called it. At 6-3, I couldn’t be happier. We can fix the Defense in the offseason
November 16th, 2010 at 6:25 pm
You can call it a 4-3 or a 3-3-5 or a 3-4….but it’s all of those things. He has Crowder and Bennett stand up like a linebacker and role out to the flat in coverage sometimes. So even though it looks like a 4-3 at the snap, it is actually a 3-4.
Sometimes he has the 3-3-5 look, but Barber or Grimm play in the box like a LB, so that is also a 3-4.
Sometimes we look like a 3-3-5, but Black rushes off the end like a DE and Grimm takes his place as the 3rd LB…which is a 4-3.
Rah has a vision of his own defense where guys can play multiple roles. Move around at will and confuse the opposing team. We don’t have the guys to make it happen effectively right now, but this year is basicly a live try out for next year. He’ll know exactly what he needs this off season and hopefully make the right moves to make his vision a reality.
November 16th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
I have only read the header….
BULL SHIiT
November 16th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
You can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or you can call me Ray Jay, but you don’t have to call me Mr. Johnson.
It’s like explaining nuclear physics to a fence post! Lol
haha. smokem if you got em.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:02 pm
Bucs don’t want losses.
Couldn’t care less about sacks, but it’s great if we get them. I’d rather have INTs anyday, or forced fumbles, or even better a sack with a forced fumble. Then it means something.
Lead the turnover ration and win games. Give a QB too much time and no matter how good your secondary is, you’re gonna get burned. They’ve done just enough to keep the secondary in position to get turnovers. Look at the losses. Pittsburgh game Grimm is in position, but doesn’t turn around, possible INT turns into TD. Talib is in position, gets hands on ball, tips into a TD. Missed turnover opportunities lead to a loss. We also did not win the TO battle against the Saints and lost it to the Falcons.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:02 pm
Capt.Tim Says:
November 16th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Pussy99- don’t worry. You didn’t know a thing about a 3-3-6 defense until right now, cause someone had ta tell you! If you couldn’t look at the field, and tell we were running it, then you reaaaaally don’t knowenough about the game rosebuds what we should, or shouldn’t be doing! Lmao!
Yeah your absolutely right… I know nothing about the 3-3-6. Please tell me more?
D-money, please tell me about these “playmakers” in our secondary, I would like to hear who these two extra playmakers in coverage are aside from the guys who would be on the field in a 4-3-4 or a 3-4-4? What Morris is trying to do is called reverse pressure- Heavy coverage to get the quartback to hesitate and give the lineman more time to get to the quarterback, but the reality is quarterbacks in the NFL make their reads and if there is nothing there the ball is gone or they check down. Bottom line, are defense sucks and I’m sure you would agree with that. Something needs to get adjusted and McCoy and the rest of our young lineman need to get developed properly… Not in some 3-3-5 that no one is familiar with.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
I’d try and get use to the 3-3-5. I think it’s Rah’s defense just as Dungy’s was the cover two. I think folks will warm up to it quickly if we get the players this offseason to make it work.
You see teams like the Steelers, Eagles, Ravens, and even the Bengals line up in all kinds of looks. 3-4, 4-3, 3-3-5, 2-4-5 ect. Hell they occasionally will come out with not one single defensive linemen with his hand in the dirt, but instead have everyone stand up like LBs. It’s to confuse the offense and disguise your blitzes. It works. It’s where Rah is trying to go.
The big difference is those teams all have the guys to make it work. They can change from any look to any look presnap without changing personal. The biggest thing we lack to make this work is a thumper MLB that can take on RBs one on one…and a couple pass rushers than can line up at DE or stand up as an OLB.
I guess this is just theory, but I guess we’ll find out soon enough. Who we go after in FA and the draft will tell alot about what Rah is trying to do with this defense.
November 16th, 2010 at 8:47 pm
Capt.Tim Says:
November 16th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
JDouble- what Raheem is doing is this. He is telling offenses that you can run on us all day long. But you can not pass. If you can run the ball 12-14 times, without a penalty or fumble – go ahead! Everyone thought Hayes would be Brooks- he isn’t
You honestly think it’s the right decision to tell teams to go ahead and run on us? Running the football takes up more clock, wears out the defense and is a safer way to move the football without turning it over than risking a pass. Yeah let’s keep our defense on field… While Freeman sits on the bench.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Obviously, with our sad D-line, they were gonna run on us anyway! Nothing coulda stopped that.the intelligent and innovative decision was to ONLY let them Run. As we lead the league in interceptions, obviously youvthrow on us at your own risk! How many teams have we beaten that “ran the Ball down our throat!”. 6! Because they can’t maintain a 12-14 play drive. They self destruct with a holding or off side penalty. Or, they get impatient, and try to force throws. I am probably wasting time explaining this, but meybe one person will understand why we aren’t getting sacks, or pressures, and are winning anyway. It’s because, as Steve White was trying to get everyone to understand, in a much more articulate and Credible way, is that we aren’t trying. We are so confident in our corners and cover packages, that we actually want the QB to throw the Ball! And , despite how crazy it sounds, or how contrary to conventional thinking it is, it’s WORKING! All right, I’m done. If you don’t get it, or don’t believe us, or think it’s some accident that makes Raheem look bad- go ahead. I give up explaining this one. Just believe me- this defense is Making Raheem Famous!
November 16th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
JDouble- exactly!
November 17th, 2010 at 10:22 am
Posey99- as we are 6-3, I would think it’s obviously the right thing to say. I was posting about us playing a 3-2-6 defense in week two! We’ve ran it all year long! The real question- every body who is knowledgable about football knew this. Yet they choose to trash McCoy, instead of saying that the scheme prevents sacks- why didn’t the talking heads on local sport radio, or the newspapers, tell the fans?? Because they’d rather trash McCoy, than tell us the truth! – that’s one of a hundred times. This town will lose this team soon. The udiots lying about it will be the reason!
November 17th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Thanks i like posey99 better than pussy99…well whats makes you think i just found out about this? tampa has been running this since last year. every since raheem has been here we have played more 3 man fronts. 3 man fronts are for teams with talented lineman and LB’s (steelers, ravens, jets, eagles) that can rush- we have neither of those. I like McCoy, Im an OU fan. when we rush 3 that means that 2 of 3 our inexperienced lineman will face a double team and they will possibly rush a LB,S or a corner. You only run a 3-4, 3-3 or a 3-2 if your line can hold there ground against doubles and you have talent at LB. its all about personel, but if you dont have the personel your not going to be sucessful on dfense. If you use a scheme that you dont have the personel then why use it?