Enough With The Three Defensive End Sets
October 18th, 2010
There’s all the Bucs analysis on the Internet, and then there’s what former Bucs defensive end Steve White churns out on his blog.
It’s sort of like the difference between eating off the dollar menu Checkers and feasting on the awesome food at Mugs Grill & Bar in Clearwater.
White’s posted his usual intense look at the Bucs’ defensive line and other takes on the Bucs-Saints game. For now, Joe’s going to only post here what White wrote about the ineffective 3-3-5 alignment Raheem Morris has shown a commitment to.
The 3-3-5 may be a useful tool but we are using it too damn much. And Coach Morris can’t keep using the excuse that Quincy Black is a good rusher because he isn’t. As I have said time and again he is a good BLITZER not a good rusher and there is a helluva difference. I went back and looked at my notes and aside from that sack against Carolina, Black has only had two pressures by my count. And those were on plays where he ran a pass rush game with Gerald McCoy. I don’t believe that I have seen him win a single one on one pass rush against an offensive lineman this year. And I doubt I WILL see him win one because he for as strong and as fast as he is, he doesn’t have any moves. Every time he is out there as a rush end that is a play where a true pass rushing defensive end is on the bench, our two rookie defensive tackles aren’t pass rushing from their normal alignments, and there is zero chance to run a pass rush game unless its on his side.
We are cutting off all of that potential pressure just to get Black on the field. Hey, I have a novel idea. Why not just sub him in for Ruud or Hayes? If he is really THAT indispensable then why not allow him to play what he is best at? Hell you can blitz him from those positions too! You can even call Bark and have a FIVE man rush!
But here’s what you CAN’T do. You can’t say you want more pressure on the quarterback if you continue to refuse to use four defensive lineman for a four man rush. You can’t say you want more pressure when you refuse to call overload blitzes to either side. You can’t complain about not getting pressure when you aren’t allowing guys to pass rush from their more natural positions.
You can’t, you simply CAN NOT. Oh you can tell a few beat writers here in Tampa but its not going to fly with me. I SEE what’s happening on the field and what isn’t. McCoy didn’t have a great day but he did make one helluva move when he was rushing from his undertackle spot and got a pressure. I can only wonder how many more times that happens if he gets more opportunities to rush from that position. Or hell maybe he gets to run a true TEX game with a defensive end instead of being a crash test dummy trying to free everything up for Black. Or maybe he can run a TOM game inside with Price where they create pressure up the middle on the quarterback who now can’t step up and gets sacked by our defensive ends coming around the horn.
Or…..maybe we keep running that bullshit 3-3-5 and then complaining after the games about how much time the quarterback had.
Fun stuff.
Personally, Joe was getting ill watching the Bucs continually fake a blitz and drop back into the 3-3-5. It’s not working.
The Bucs got outcoached Sunday, as Cadillac Williams said. And Raheem Morris himself shouldered his share of blame.
Joe expects to see a lot more blitzing on Sunday with rookie Sam Bradford quarterbacking the Rams,and the lack of respect he’ll get versus what the Bucs gave Drew Brees.
Plus, Raheem has to know his treasured secondary is ineffective without the threat of a pass rush. And there’s none of that going on with the status quo.
October 18th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Why aren’t we all calling for Mangurian’s job.Since he took over the line has went to crap!!!Joseph was looking great, Faine was suppose to be great,Zuttah was a rookie standout,Penn was a practice squad player who was really on his way to being an elite pass blocker,Trueblood was a Mauller!!!Now we cant run the ball. This sharp decline all started when Mangurian arrived!
On a better note the Raiders are shopping Asomugha,I know I’m dreaming!!!
October 18th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
I guess it is a good thing that, according to Steve, our guys were not getting manhandled (it looked that way). But, on the negative side it seems like it will be tough for the Bucs to correct their run defense problems given Steve’s analysis. It appears we have a symphony of small errors. Such is life with a young team.
October 18th, 2010 at 8:40 pm
Joe, in light of the poor running game and comments by Olson, do you still stand by your comments that the Bucs O-line players would be picked up immediately if cut? That would make them almost unique as most Bucs cuts never play again. I just don’t see the evidence that any of them are that good and some of the sites that track Oline play show Vincent — a guy off the street — as the most effective.
October 18th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
JimBuc:
Jeff Faine, Jeremy Trueblood, Davin Joseph and Donald Penn? Yup.
Joe saw holes for the backs to run through yesterday. Huggins found them. Cadillac did not. You do the math.
October 18th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Given that the 2010 draft was billed as the best in many years at the DT position, and the bucs expended two premium picks at that position, one would think both the rush defense and pass rush would improve. Neither has.
Statistically anyways both aspects of the defense have declined. And if you compare how they were playing near the end of last year its a large drop off.
Remember the Tampa-2 was considered soft on the rush, the reason Bates was brought in. Now we have come full circle and still can’t stop the run.
If u can’t stop the run, doesnt that spill over to blitz packages for pass rush? If the other team is in second and short all day it limits what is available perhaps.
Very perplexing.
October 18th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Black is Morris project he wants him to be the star in the 3 3 5 but he is not and started to think he is not good at run
October 18th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
Eric — you are too funny. When statistics were presented last year as proof of improvement, you and your ilk said the team’s record was all that mattered. This year the Bucs have as many wins in 5 games as all last season and all you want to talk about are statistics.
A “hater” to the core. Your hatred for Morris, which is born out of a near deviant love for Gruden, is overflowing and sour. You reappear after losses and clog up these boards with anti-Morris (pro-Gruden) mutterings that are reminiscent of Golem of Lord of the Rings (Precious . .my precious Gruden . . . prescious). Strange dude.
October 18th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
I like the 3-3-5, but I think we don’t have the players to pull it off.
Imagine if we had Price and McCoy on the line with DE/OLB hybrid guy that could stand up or put his hand in the dirt.
The next three guys are Black, a bigger better MLB, and Merrimen…who can also stand up or put his hand in the dirt.
The back five are Talib and Biggers as the true CBs, Myron Lewis as the free safety/CB, and then Grimm and Hayes both floating as SS/LBs.
Something like this would give us SO much ability to disguise what we are doing. We could stay in the 3-3-5, switch to the 3-4 with Grimm dropping back as SS and Hayes coming up as a 4th LB. We could have Merrimen put his hand in the dirt and play 4-3…all without changing personel.
Merrimen doesn’t have to be part of the equation, but basicly we need a couple DE/OLB hybrid guys and a bigger MLB. I think it could be very effective against the run and pass. I think Grimm and Hayes can both play this SS/LB hybrid role, which could be huge if used right.
October 18th, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Jimbuc,
I didn’t discover JBF.com till after last year. However, you raise a good point.
I always took the position that the so called improvement last year was skewed because it was mop up time against teams that were playing out the string.
I think this start this year, with pretty identical stats to last year defensively, vindicates my position.
As usual u bring up Gruden when I haven’t said a word about him……………..which is what is really funny. That and your previous position that we would have to look at the “shades of grey” beyond the won/loss record to determine improvement.
I guess that doesn’t apply if there are a couple of wins in the mix.
October 18th, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Right now our DEs can’t stand up and play OLB, Ruud sucks, and Hayes is just too damn small to be an effective starting LB. Fix these problems and the 3-3-5 could be dynamic. It could be our new “Tampa 2”
October 18th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
They still have some winable games left on the Scedule who said they were going to go undefeated. Yeah they can’t stop the run yet and everyone becomes a keyboard genious they are plain out not executing not tackling and not shedding blocks all that comes with gametime experience there’s 11 games left to make up for mistakes if not we get a shot at the best passrusher in the draft or get someone in here who can get at the quaterback frequently Price and Mccoy are getting plenty of snaps and will improve with time
October 18th, 2010 at 9:29 pm
Steve White should be the defensive line coach!
October 18th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Eric — every post you make SCREAMS Gruden, no need for the actual name. By the way, what can we discern from the fact that you only reappear when the team loses?
October 18th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
I really don’t think that the problem is as much with scheme as personnel. We’ve tried every formation, stunt, blitz you can think of but nothing seems to work. I do think it’s likely that Raheem is over-scheming due to the fact that he knows he doesn’t have the personnel to stop anyone without some creativity. We just don’t have the horses right now, hopefully that will change as they gain experience. I’d be shocked if Ruud or Stylez will be back next year, because they have experience (and they are both in contract years) but they are just not cutting it.
October 18th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
Is it just me or is anyone else really getting tired of these ‘exotic’ defenses? 3-3-5 vs. 4-3 vs. 3-4.
DAMMIT STICK TO THE FREAKING BASICS FIRST.
Yeah this is a young team. Yes I understand McCoy & Price are rookies so why, oh WHY, is Raheem doing all this change? Just keep it simple, smashmouth football.
Jiminy Christmass people!!!!
October 18th, 2010 at 10:05 pm
Greg White just plain SUCKS…That great work ethic of his is really paying off isn’t it? Hey Greg I hear there’s an opening for the Tuskers that has your name on it…
October 18th, 2010 at 10:40 pm
Coaching is almost always at the root of any equation either bad or good. If Raheem will continue to be stubborn then it is what it is, ulimately it will be his job that he loses. Monte Kiffen was successfull for many reasons and we are seeing why he did not like to gamble with coverages. This is a tough reality but if it doesn’t get better fast someone will fall on the Glazers sword. And its not me or #5…
October 18th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
Jimbuc,
Not true Mr. Jimbuc.
Very complimentary after the Browns and Panthers wins.
What are we to make of 69-19 last two home games? Oh, I know already, growing pains with a young rebuilding team on the rise………………..ill save you the trouble.
October 18th, 2010 at 11:14 pm
Youngest team in the NFL… Wait I’ve got a great idea! Let’s run a 3-3-5 and a bunch of other mumbo jumbo like playing guys at DE that should be working in the positions they were drafted to play getting used to the speed and developing moves and learning the damn system. Raheem is REALLY starting to piss me off.
October 18th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Im starting to believe the problems with the lack of pass rush are twofold for this team.
Problem 1) Todd Wash. Look, Steve’s right, when you’re five weeks into the season and you don’t know how to properly get in your set, you got problems. All these guys look slow on there get offs, and have for some time. This is basic drilling Rod Marinelli ingrained every practice. McCoy should be mastering a basic rip move by now. And if you watch Roy Miller, his hand movement and placement needs a hell of a lot of work.
And it’s as if the whole line is trying to master multiple stunts without first learning the basics. You’ll never learn that way! Which leads me to the second problem.
Problem 2) Why is Morris making multiple formation changes when these guys appear to have no clue what gap they are suppose to be in in the first place? Now I understand they are under trial-by-fire, being thrown out there so young, but GMC has no business playing end right now. None!
Look, part of being a good coach is understanding what you have to work with, and using guys attributes to your advantage. I see Morris doing that with the secondary (using Talib’s man coverage skills, bringing Jones in the box) but quite honestly..the d-Line looks overwhelmed most of the time. I believe it’s partly due to a lack of fundamentals from Todd Wash, and part being moved around so much they don’t ever get basics ingrained before moving on.
As much as I hate to say it..I believe the Todd Wash experiment is over. In some ways these guys are regressing from last year! And Raheem…stop trying to out-coach yourself! Stick with a plan your players actually understand before getting fancy with the chalkboard! Just my opinion.
October 18th, 2010 at 11:35 pm
@Eric
You also said that if we beat the Bengals you would be very impressed, and that you were halfway on the bandwagon. Then we won and you disappeared, only to reemerge after we lost, so I know you are not stupid enough to not see where we are coming from. Not even one post for a week! Then we lose a game and you’re posting like a mad man. It was a bad loss, as was the Steelers, but losing to two teams that are much better than us is not the end of the world. Could we have played better, sure. Could we have been coached better, sure. But that doesn’t mean the sky is falling. You, as well as many others, need to be more patient. No matter how much you bitch and complain, they are not getting rid of Raheem this year. I hate losing just as much as you (it ruins my whole week), but I know we don’t currently have the talent to win consistently.
October 18th, 2010 at 11:54 pm
Well Hawaiian,
I cling to the hope that the previous Glazer boys that so boldly moved heaven and earth to hire Gruden will re-emerge. Remember they assured everyone Sam Wych would stay. And they canned Tony Dungy and Jon Gruden.
So, although the Bengals game was won the manner of victory was pretty shaky.
Its kinda like a bandaid. When it comes time to pull it off you can either do it real slow and endure the pain a long time (current plan), or you can rip that sucker off and move on (my plan).
The worse thing IMO is for them to play just good enough for the Glazer boys to have the perfect excuse to keep on a-going with no real hope well ever get back to playoffs and real winning.
I only want what you want, and what everyone wants on here – good bucs football. just have differing opinion as how to get there. Rah aint it, IMO.
October 18th, 2010 at 11:55 pm
I saw that the saints kept runnig at price hate to second guess the draft move but maybe we should have drafted a De instesad of another DT cause dont look like they are letting price get equal reps with Miller who is being pushed around like a pillow but agree with Jdouble are DE’s are not good enough to stand up did anybody see styles trying to cover the Wr in the saints game I mean come on
October 18th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
oops meant runnig at miller
October 19th, 2010 at 12:32 am
@Eric,
I guess that’s what I don’t understand. Why are you hoping for him to get fired, when he obviously doesn’t have enough talent to win consistently. Remember now it was Gruden that hired him as a DC, so even King Jon thought he was a good defensive coach. Fact is, neither one of us really know squat about how good of a coach he is, and it’s not our decision regardless. I just want to see him with a little more talent, and with our organization’s (new) philosophy of building through the draft, that’s going to take some time. Besides, no big time coach (which is I’m assuming what you want) is coming to Tampa until this team’s talent has developed. Why would they? Big time coaches are not going to tarnish their legacy to take on a rebuilding team (especially in a small market like Tampa). So all you are going to get is another coach you’ve never heard of, and we will be having this same conversation all over again.
As for the band aid theory, the same could be said while Gruden was the coach. We were bringing in older veterans every year and maintaining a decent team. However, we were not even close to being a championship caliber team. Very similar to this team, we beat the teams we were supposed to. At least now we have youth, which should get better. For myself, I was sick and damn tired of seeing Jeff Garcia, and even more sick of Brian Griese.
October 19th, 2010 at 8:31 am
Jimbuc
A “Kool-aider” to the core. Your hatred for Gruden, which is born out of a near deviant love for Raheem the Dream, is overflowing and sour. You reappear only after “handed to you wins” and clog up these boards with anti-Gruden (pro-Morris) mutterings that are reminiscent of Golem of Lord of the Rings (Precious . .my precious Raheem . . . prescious). Strange dude.
October 19th, 2010 at 8:58 am
Hawaiian Buc
Has it ever occurred to you that Gruden “had” to bring in older veterans, as well as troubled players, because the Glazers would not allow him to go after quality players? After the Superbowl and Malcoms Strokes the 3 stooges took over and did not spend money. Yes, Gruden brought those players here on the cheap. And Gruden won with them too! Do you think “any” veteran players would come in here and play for Morris? Lol Just before he was fired, Gruden was trying to bring in old man Brett Farve too. In fact, Gruden said that he went to bed that night thinking that the deal was done and then woke up to find Farve had signed with the Jets! When the funds were cut off, which they obviously were, Gruden did what he had to do to win. And he did win with those “older & troubled” players! Gruden was 9-3 in 08′ when Kiffin pulled the rug out from under him by announcing he was leaving the night before the Carolina game. We lost the remaining games because the defense was simply deflated by Kiffin’s announcement. At least under Gruden we fans knew we had a chance to win “any” game. We didn’t look forward to having a 6 win season! We wanted it all! And the stands were full for each and every game. And we damned sure weren’t praying that a team would hand us a game like Cincy did! Morris is no coach. Every game we play he proves that. Our defense is giving up 367 yards per game average.
You can blame the line coach. You can blame the fans. But the ultimate blame has to fall on the DC, which happens to be named HC too. And that coach should be dismissed.
October 19th, 2010 at 9:08 am
Tampa2…actually Jimbuc was here after wins and loses, unlike like you. Go back under your rock.
October 19th, 2010 at 10:36 am
Joe” there where big holes to run thru, Huggins found them, caddy didn’t!” that’s totally a fictitious account of Huggins performance . Let me say this slowly- huggins- 3 rushing attempts, 7 yards, out for season. All hail the hole finder?? 2 yds a carry is finding the hole? He also didn’t find the hole,cause there aren’t any. Go watch the game again! The line is good at pass protection. Vincent is good, Penn is decent at run blocking. The rest suck at run blocking! And they always have. Under achievers. Needreplaced next year.
October 19th, 2010 at 10:44 am
Bulls(p)it!
Go check replay of Joe’s chat from the game Sunday. The next game Joe goes to he will specifically document the down and distance and time of the plays that Cadillac doesn’t run through holes that Joe can run through.
Huggins specifically had a nice little gain on an exact run through a hole on the right side that when Caddy ran the ball, he instead tried to run through a nose tackle instead of moving three feet to his right that for whatever reason Caddy either didn’t see or chose not to run through.
Either Caddy has no vision or he has zero lateral movement. Or perhaps both.
October 19th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Tampa2, No, but it occurred to me that you are a loser, who hides in his slime pit until we lose a game, then crawls out, wringing his hands, crying that the sky is falling! Grow up, and act you you got some DAMN SENSE! We are rebuilding. We lost to the two best teams in the NFL. No surprise there, unless you are a total idiot like Tampa2! BACK to slime pit, town fool. We have no time for your nonsense! Back to to your slime
October 19th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
Ahh Joe, Williams 10-18 yards, Huggins 3-7, Benn 1-4, Freeman, 3-2. That was against the saints. Against the Bengals Williams 11-33, Huggins ” the hole finder”. 1-4, Blount 4-3, Graham had one for 63 yds. Other than that 2-2 yds. Damn, keep going? Guess we should hand out those canes with the red tips! All of our running backs are just stubbling around blind, missing all these BIG holes!! Been doing it for years too! Damn asses. . . Are you sure you are seeing big holes
October 19th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Capt.Tim:
Were you at the game?
Joe doesn’t appreciate being called a liar, doesn’t matter how long someone has been commenting.
October 19th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Joe, what kinda shape are you in? Do ya think we could train ya, Rocky style, and get ya to One Buc by week 8? all the fellas on JoeBuc will help ya , you know, jogging, weightlifting, carrying around the speakers for your theme music, etc! Cause if you see holes that our line made, you are a special talent! And the team needs ya! No other back we’ve had for 5 years has seen any holes, so it’s obvious- YOU are da Man! Ok, 5:00 am. Drink 6 raw eggs, then meet me and the boys down by the Docks! We gotta get yer 6 mile run in, before we start the power lifting! Dadadadada da da da, da dada, dada da, dada da, dot dada, de dada, dadadadada da da da! This should be the headline story on bspn – poster turned RB! Wow!
October 19th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
I didn’t call you a liar. I listed the stats for the last two games! NO back has had any success running the ball. No one all season has had a decent average who has carried the ball more than 6 times in the game . You disagree?
October 19th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
I thought that I pointed out a failure by ALL of our Backs pretty respectfully there, Joe! If you are right about the line, then it’s every back that’s failing! None of them are averaging over 3 yds a carry. Perhaps some would improve with more reps, but typically that’s not true. If m right, and it’s the line play, then meybe the backs are good. Either way. We both agree something isn’t working right.
October 19th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Tampa2…The money was not “pulled out” from under the Favre deal. Favre did not choose to go to the Jets…He was traded to the Jets. If he refused he would have looked crazier than he does now. He has stated this himself. Go back to your rock and crawl under it.
October 19th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Tampa 2,
That’s something none of us will ever know for sure. Everything is all rumors. There has also been tons of rumors that free agents didn’t want to play for Gruden, because the current players (at the time) always spoke negatively about him. I’m not saying it’s true, but again, none of us will ever know the truth. I know they drafted horribly, that can’t be denied. And actually, the stands were not full for every game. I flew in for a game Gruden’s last year, and even the damn flight attendant was trying to give away her tickets. It was not a full stadium, so give that argument up.
As for the veteran players not wanting to play for Morris, I totally disagree with that theory, although again there’s no way for any of us to know for sure. First of all, even with Gruden, players will play for Satan if there is enough money involved. That is no fault of either coach. Also, players want to come to play for coaches that are likable. So many criticize Raheem for being too friendly with the players (which again is an argument that none of us really know). So do you think that “quality” players don’t want that? If you do, then you truly don’t understand professional athletes. I have a couple friends that play professional sports, and they have told me they wan ta coach that they can get along with. It is a job to them, so just like us you don’t want to work for someone who is an ass hole. All that motivation crap doesn’t do jack for them, they are grown men who’ve seen and heard it all. The team has chosen to go away from free agency (hopefully just for now), but to say that players wouldn’t want to play for Raheem is just a baseless argument.
October 19th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
im just wondering, what the big deal is gruden ran his course dungy ran his course,was every one upset ,yes was it for the better of the team yes gruden will be fine how long can you keep crying about it hes not coming back.i put up with leeman bennett ,richard williamsn,sam wyche,and he finally drafted brooks and sapp,three years later we finally saw improve ment,8years later a superbowl,who was the big freeagent the first three years,hardy nickerson,who else?ive been through mckay and all of them so all of you whos upset with the glazers never knew culverhouse.and if chucky drafted better like cohwer since his name comes we would not have to open up th wallet so much,tampa 2 can u explain this .
October 19th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
the 3-3-5 alignment. Sucks in Madden games and sucks in real life too. lol