Bucs Not Among Next Wave Of Pro Bowlers
July 21st, 2010
Cobbling together a list of 13 guys with a good shot of making their first Pro Bowl appearance after the 2010 season, John Clayton, “The Professor,” of BSPN.com, doesn’t have one Bucs player in the mix.
Not even Aqib Talib or Tanard Jackson, who are Ronde Barber’s “can’t miss” stars.
Clayton preferred the Bengals cornerbacks Johnathan Joseph and Leon Hall as his favorite emerging stars in the secondary.
This is the best cornerback combo that doesn’t get enough recognition leaguewide. Under coordinator Mike Zimmer, the Bengals have turned their defense around over the past two seasons; the shutdown abilities of Joseph and Hall have been key to that improvement. Joseph ended up being a second alternate last season while Hall was a fourth alternate. Sure, it’s hard to crack the AFC cornerback Pro Bowl list with the trio of Nnamdi Asomugha, Darrelle Revis and Champ Bailey at the top, but Joseph and Hall are knocking on the door.
Joe thinks Talib is knocking on that same door and could easily be in the same class as all the top corners this season.
Speaking of the Bengals, looking ahead at the Bucs schedule Joe is most intrigued by the Bucs-Bengals game in Week 5, which comes right after an early bye week. The Bucs likely will be sitting at 1-2 or 0-3 with their season all but on the line against a playoff team on the road.
The young Bucs receivers, with their feet already wet, will get an extreme test from those corners, and Antonio Bryant will be lined up on the other side of the ball.
Ahh, Joe can’t wait for some football.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Bucs vs. old, worn out, undisciplined, crybaby and bad influence Antonio Bryant.
Bucs should shut him down totally, right?
July 21st, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Lets let week 5 actually be here before we say who will get shut down, might not be that hard to shut down a WR if he is not on the field… IR, or other reasons.
Again with the foretelling of the future Eric…….?
July 21st, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Well, if Antonio is playing, the bucs should shut him right down right?
I hope nobody is wishing him ill-will to the injured reserve list.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:27 pm
Oh, that’s right AB won’t play because of that bad knee!
Losing teams don’t field too many Pro Bowl players. You have to play 10 times better than anyone else to be considered for such an honor on a losing team — and the Bucs are (in ONE short year) synonymous with losing.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Quite the opposite Eric. I hope he is on the field and WILL get shut down.
July 21st, 2010 at 12:38 pm
I am not wanting ANY player ill-will!!
It is just putting the cart before the horse to even be saying who will and who wont be playing in week 5, how many weeks from now? I am hopping AB has a great year, and that when we do square off we play against him. We play well..
July 21st, 2010 at 12:54 pm
So the IR reference was just a general one, not directed to AB? Along with the “other reasons” shot?
yea right.
July 21st, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Biggest mistake we made is letting Antonio Bryant go! All the reasons for letting him leave were LAME.
July 21st, 2010 at 1:14 pm
Joe, I think you meant 2-1 or 3-0 coming out of the bye.
Yes, really.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Really? Talib and Jackson won’t make the Pro Bowl because the Bengals have 2 corners that are better? THEY’RE IN THE AFC!!!! Who cares about the Bengals DBs other than in the one game we play against them. They won’t beat out any of our players for Pro Bowl spots because they’re in the OTHER conference. Besides that, Jackson is a Safety, not a Cornerback…. so how are two corners gonna take his spot if he plays well????
Other than the reference to the game we’ll play against them this season, this was the absolute most ridiculous article I’ve seen here. Joe, I understand he didn’t slate any Bucs players for the Pro Bowl, but at least use analysis of NFC DBs as fodder for discussion. That was just stupid.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Joe here,
BamBamBuc – If you read Clayton’s story, he doesn’t break down anything by conference specifically. And Joe’s not making the point that you’re imagining. …
July 21st, 2010 at 2:34 pm
The Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. No Bucs make that list, regardless of talent, until the Bucs are competitive. Simple.
As for AB, why should the Bucs shut him down? He is a good receiver, right. He had a rough year last year, but a ggod one before. The Bucs did not let him go because he was a BAD receiver, so I would think the would play and play well, if healthy.
Eric, you and the rest of you criers need to get your heads out of Gruden’s butt and look around for a while. In the real world, good players are cut all the time. You have to be more than just talented, you have to be healthy, productive, a good teammate, you have to fit the current plan of the team, you have to fit within the teams salary plans etc. If that were not the case then there would be no games in the NFL. The two coaches would just meet inthe middle of the field with the rosters and the team with the most “talented” roster would win. That’s obviously not how it works, right? Yet, you and the rest of the criers always call out guys by their stats as if nothing else ($$, draft picks needed in trade, turd factor) even matters.
July 21st, 2010 at 2:46 pm
You mean like Clayton?
Apparenltly the bucs didn’t think they needed a good receiver like AB. He was given a dose of crap by the bucs, and many fans on here. He was called a bad receiver, running undiscliplined routes and whatnot. also referred to as too old, head case, bad team mate, etc.
How can we judge whether the bucs made the right call until antonio plays this year. If he has a great year like 08, they blew it. Same is true if BM catches his usual 100 passes. Then it will be proven that they blew that one also. Well see.
Is there any scenario where the bucs can be criticized in any manner? Or do we all have to lockstep with the plan and every personnel decision?
July 21st, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Eric — no offense, but I am going to guess by your comments that you have never played a team sport at any meaningful level. This comment illustrates my point:
“If he has a great year like 08, they blew it. Same is true if BM catches his usual 100 passes. Then it will be proven that they blew that one also. Well see.”
Anyone who played a team sport at at a competitve level would see your comment as silly. Let me give you a couple reasons, Mr. Stats: First, if AB does very well this year, it does not mean he would have done very well for the Bucs. The Bengals have Palmer and Ocho. Right now, we have Freeman in his first full year and a bunch of young guys. AB should play better with the Bengals. Same with BM as he should be playing on a better team. Second, what difference do the stats mean if a guy is a team wrecker. TO has great stats but he is toxic to most teams. Why? Because it is a TEAM. Third, teams like the Bengals and the Dolphins are at different places than the Bucs so they might be willing to give up picks and have potential malcontents and turds, where the Bucs might not because they have a new young QB etc.
Both AB and BM can have great years this year and that does not mean the Bucs “blew it.” It is that kind of extreme short-term, “must win it all this year” philosophy that got the Bucs to where they are today.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Joseph and Hall is the best CB duo in the NFL and it’s not even close.
Plus they’re on a good team.
Talib will make one eventually.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Eric said:
“Is there any scenario where the bucs can be criticized in any manner? Or do we all have to lockstep with the plan and every personnel decision?”
Let’s turn the question around so you can see how foolish you sound. Here we go: Is there any scenario where the Bucs GET CREDIT in any manner? Yesterday there was a story about the Bucs signing Price early. Joe only mentioned — in one sentence — that the early signing put a “dent” in the “glazers are cheap” theory. The “hater” crew could not get to the board quick enought to type stupidity like: the Bucs only drafted Price because the knew they could take advantage of Price and his agent to get a cheap contract. SERIOUSLY? Go look at the board. You will see that your pal Thomas made that assinine comment.
So, are you really complaining about not being able to complain enough about the Bucs? Really? If the Price signing can somehow be a negative, well . . .at a minimum you and the hater crowd have no ground to stand on.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Joe, I read his column. You’re right, it doesn’t separate AFC/NFC, just a generalization of players possibly hitting the Pro Bowl this year. 13 of them. And he does show Dunta Robinson on that list (an NFC corner which could keep Talib out this year). It was more about your commentary on the article.
“Clayton preferred the Bengals cornerbacks Johnathan Joseph and Leon Hall as his favorite emerges stars in the secondary.”
You make it sound as though Clayton is picking those two guys to go over the two guys you mentioned. He never mentioned any of our guys in his column, you did. By bringing up Talib and Jackson, you made the comparison to the Cincy guys. That’s ridiculous, and from the sounds of it unintentional. If you would have connected to the part about Dunta it would have made more sense.
Doesn’t matter anyway, we’re not even in preseason yet. All this is speculation. Nobody knows who’ll make the Pro Bowl, the Super Bowl, the playoffs or anything else at this point. It’s simply filler until the season begins. Clayton and Randy Cross and others can predict all they want and when the season comes around, most of those prognosticators will look foolish for one thing or another.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:14 pm
JImbuc,
Played plenty. Not at the pro level, but pretty high.
Will there ever be any way of measuring whether the bucs blew anything?
Were the bucs “right” in trading Steve Young? Releasing Doug Williams? Drafting Adams? Were the Chargers right in taking Ryan Leaf?
We don’t have a labratory here Jimbuc, all the teams are different. But it is one league, and if AB plays lights out for Cinci, no reason he couldn’t have here.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:16 pm
BamBamBuc:
Indeed!
July 21st, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Eric — I just gave you a very simple reason why AB playing “lights out” at Cincy does not mean he plays “light out” here. Not sure I buy your playing “pretty high.” You realize, for example, that all star teams are routinely trashed by club teams, right? Why would that be? All star teams are more talented right?
If you ahev to go back to Steve Young and Doug Williams, how weak is your argument? Yikes.
July 21st, 2010 at 3:35 pm
Ok Jimbuc,
Obviously the bucs are insulated from all criticism in your la-la land, and any decision is good because they perceive it as possibly helping their team, whether it ultimately does or not.
additionally, if a player they release, or chose not to sign, or trade for, plays great elsewhere that is completely meaningless info.
All makes perfect sense!
July 21st, 2010 at 3:44 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc2Cf2HMaL0
EVERYBODY WATCH THIS VIDEO. These are Josh Freeman’s highlights from the last season. In this video, you’ll see many great plays and amazing, impossible catches by Antonio Bryant. The AB in 2009 was the same AB from 2008. You’ll notice that AB, other than K2, takes up most of the plays on here. Watch the video, but at the end, remember to subtract Bryant from video of Freeman’s highlights!
July 21st, 2010 at 3:48 pm
Eric — the weakest response of all, as you would know given your profession, is to try to turn something that someone says into absolutes. To exagerate the other sides argument to the point of turning it into farce. I never said the Bucs were “insulated from all criticism.” (I have criticized them myself) I just responded to your criticism. I never said “any decision is good.” I just point out the weakness in your argument. I never said that how a released player performs is “completely meaningless.” I just pointed out that it is not as simple as this nonesense:
““If he has a great year like 08, they blew it. Same is true if BM catches his usual 100 passes. Then it will be proven that they blew that one also. Well see.”
You must be having an off day . . .
July 21st, 2010 at 3:54 pm
The AB in 2009 was the same AB from 2008??????
2009 stats:
13 games played 39 receptions for 600 yds and 4 TDs
2008 stats:
16 games played 83 reception for 1,248 yards and 7 TDS
And those are just the stats (for my man Eric). Boy, mention AB and put up a simple picture of the guy sitting at a desk and people off the deep end!
July 21st, 2010 at 3:55 pm
@JimBuc
How bout you watch the video I posted??
July 21st, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Patrick — I did. AB is a good receiver. What’s your point, other than that the 2009 AB was the same as the 2008 AB, which I think we all know to not be true?
July 21st, 2010 at 4:21 pm
Now wait a minute JImbuc, how can you use the 2009 stats against him?
You said that if he played on a different team his good play wouldnt mean anything. Why wouldn’t he get the benefit of having played on a different roster from 08, to 09?
Who is to say he would have had a poor year in 09 if the coaching staff had remained, if you apply your “different team” concept.
Your a bit hypocritical sir.
My position is clear, if Ab playes great this year the bucs made a stupid move in not signing him. I think most clear thinking folks would agree.
July 21st, 2010 at 4:28 pm
@JimBuc
I know that as far as stats go, AB wasn’t the same as he was in 2008. But ability wise he was.
I really don’t know how you or others judge Antonio Bryant just on that one season last year, considering all the circumstances and the huge mess this team was in. We had the offensive cordinator fiasco, the 3 different QB’s, and there was no stability what so ever! AB was also injured for a good part of the season. K2 also became our #1 go to receiver. Look at the pathetic coaching staff he had. Raheem’s nurmerous screw ups affected the team last year. There are many reasons, and as a whole the whole team was bad and it was a disaster season. You don’t think any of this played a role?? Any player would’ve been impacted by such a mess of a football team.
Also, this “attitude problem” that everyone brings up is really just total BS. Bryant didn’t “complain.” He made one or two little comments that were nothing. He didn’t call out his coach, his GM, Josh Freeman, or any of his other teammates. I believe he was being asked about his role in the offense. He talked about how K2 was his the new go to guy, and how he was fine with it and accepting it. Maybe I’m a little off, but if he would’ve publicly said something that was so bad, I would’ve remembered it. Just show me exactly where he was SUCH a cancer in the locker room and where he really hurt the team. When free agency was going on in the spring, AB was one of the hottest players available. Did you ever hear anyone on ESPN or NFL Network talk about his “behavior problems”?? No, because everyone in Tampa only makes such a big deal of it.
I’m certain that if they brought AB back, which they should’ve, he would’ve had a much better season in 2010 and continued to help this football team.
July 21st, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Those two Bengal CBs are gross beyond belief. The only real competition for best tandem this year may be Revis and Cromartie if Cromartie can get it together.
July 21st, 2010 at 5:05 pm
I pretty much just focus on the Bucs, and will admit I don’t know the two CBs for the Bengals. That said, on the surface of the quote, Clayton is saying that Alternates stand a better chance than Talib of making the Pro Bowl this year?
The only way that would make sense is if his off the field attitude issues are the reason they don’t vote him in, or if he ends up injured for some reason. Otherwise, he should be considered among the tops for the NFC by the end of this season.
This is the year Talib turns it up a notch to prove he’s as good as he wants to be.
I suspect Clayton, along with most espn media guys, are still doing their best to make sure the Bucs don’t get any good press. Ever since the Glazers fired Dungy, it’s been this way. The image of Dungy loading his SUV in the rain at night influences anything they say about us.
July 21st, 2010 at 5:35 pm
I’m tired of hearing about Antonio Bryant! He’ll make a great #2 receiver and nothing more. The Bucs paid him 2.4 Million for each touchdown he scored last year. He was the number 2 paid WR in the entire league last year. More than Moss, Andre Johnson, Chad Ochocinco, Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith so on and so on. He made 2 Million more than Andre Johnson and 3 Million more than Reggie Wayne. If anyone got screwed it was the Bucs.
Easy example:
Chad Ochocinco
Career avg TD’s 9
Career avg Yardage 1250
Antonio Bryant
Career avg TD’s 4
Career avg Yardage 700
Paid like a Superstar; performs like a #2 receiver!
July 21st, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Eric — you don’t know many “clear thinking folks”
July 21st, 2010 at 6:37 pm
I think AB still has knee issues. We’ll soon hear how much he practices in Camp, and then we’ll see if he can play. Either way, I’m sure it will be pretty painful for him.
I never disliked AB, he was great when Gruden was here, but I agree with his release. It seems like they could have signed him and then traded him. Cinci was sure hot to sign him. I think his best years are behind him, but I could be wrong. All the Prognosticators bash our WR corps but I can’t wait to see them take the field. I’m stoked and think they will shine, just not Clayton. He’s useless and keeping Clayton while releasing AB just made no sense. So I am unable to talk about AB without mentioning that Clayton Sucks, Big Time. A first round pick no less.
July 21st, 2010 at 6:55 pm
Patrick:
First, I think AB is a good receiver. But, I still agree with the Bucs decision to let him go.
Second, curious that you ask how some judge Bryant on one year when you are doing the same thing. You are just choosing 2008. If you want to look over his career, which might be the fairest indicator, his career numbers are more like 2009 than 2008, maybe only slightly better. But, that is only part of why the Bucs let him go.
On the cancer issue, who knows the truth but we do know that he vented his frustration in the press. One would think he vented more privately, right?
Has anyone considered that he might not have been worth the long-term deal he was seeking? Remember, the deal he got with the Bengals does not mean that he was asking for the same deal from the Bucs. And, even if it did, don’t you think there is at least a reasonable argument that he was not worth it?
That, again, is the problem. We all judge players in a vaccum. We just look at the stats and say, “yes, we want him” without any cosideration for the COST. How many tims have you heard Eric cry about not getting Brandon Marshall without mentioning the 2 premium picks that he COST? Same thing with 30 year old Boldin. Who would notwnat to have Boldin? Well, how about if Bolding costs 2 picks? Well, maybe not as much interest in Boldin — at age 30 — when you factor in COST.
I don’t think AB was worth what he was likely asking for. Not for a soon to be 30 year old wide receiver (on a young rebuilding team) with average to slightly better than average career stats and a troublesome knee that caused him to miss a few games and be ineffective in a few others. That does not sound worth it to me. Different perhaps for the bengals, right? They are in a different place with Palmer and Ocho, so he may make more sense there than here.
July 21st, 2010 at 7:00 pm
BMA — I think your analysis is spot on except for the Clayton to AB comparison. The difference was Clayton had a contract, but I agree that on talent it makes no sense.
July 21st, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Jimbuc,
K-2 had a cost, but you never said boo.
AB would have cost nuttin but $$$$$$$$$$.
I understand BM cost, but like Bill Parcells I think he was well worth it, probably the most talented wideout in bucs history if he were here.
What you fail to recognize is the situation we now have on the team. No viable wideout for our young QB, who we are counting on so heavily. You think rookies can step right in. I think your dead wrong, and so is DOM.
Disastrous situation, IMO which could have been easliy addressed and given the man half a chance. Didn’t happen. Not gonna have a happy ending.
July 21st, 2010 at 7:11 pm
I agree with getting rid of AB also….the guy has a piss poor attitude, and always has.
He got 9 million dollars to play last year , and all he did was pout about it. When he actually bothered to play last season ,he went in the tank and didn’t even run his routs if things weren’t going well.
Good Riddance. He’ll make a perfect Bengal , being that he’s a total douche
July 21st, 2010 at 7:22 pm
@JimBuc
You put pretty good analysis behind your argument. However, I still disagree. I would feel a lot better about the team’s chances next year if he was still here.
Speaking of Clayton, it still makes me mad how he got that ridiculous contract. Maybe Bryant didn’t have the best season last year, but he should’ve gotten that contract and was definitely more deserving of it. If we had just given Bryant Clayton’s contract after the 08 season and let Clayton WALK, we would’ve saved a lot of money actually. Keeping one receiver instead of signing both and investing heavily on the wrong one. Instead both of them are gone (Clayton is still here but he’s gonna be gone soon).
July 21st, 2010 at 7:58 pm
I agree with you on Clayton, although not sure that AB takes Clayton’s money. I also agree that on paper the Bucs would be better this year with AB, but we would have been better on paper in 09 with Brooks, Garcia etc. Doesn’t mean we should have kept them.
I hope AB does well this year and I hope the Bucs improve. That will make the AB departure good for everyone. And the Bucs will probably get a 3rd round next year for AB, which would be nice.
July 21st, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Eric, you must sincerely think that each season is the last season ever in the NFL. There will never be another season after 2010.
July 21st, 2010 at 8:43 pm
No Jimbuc,
But I do strongly believe that leaving Mr. Freeman in this situation could ruin him, so the 2010 season could be very critical.
July 21st, 2010 at 8:57 pm
Brandon Marshall is another one, like AB in that we’ll see real soon if Miami made the right move. I think a healthy AB is better than BM, but AB is banged up probably worse than the Bengals know. I personally think Marvin Lewis just has a WR fetish. I think for them to sign AB was a reach when the money could have been spent on a real need. Just my opinion.
Now onto the real deal. Benn & Williams could become a crazy good tandem with Stroughter & K2. I really like the Vincent signing, but it keeps coming back to Penn for me. If Penn holds out then we could go from being a decent team, possibly good, to a beat up QB run for your life team, that contends for the top pick. I have good days and bad days about the Penn issue, but ultimately they need him regardless of who has the leverage. If he doesn’t play, he’s screwed, but so could be the Bucs and their master plan of improvement. Somehow there needs to be a compromise, but I would prefer to see the 1800+ member Union get busted so every team is free to negotiate as they see fit, and let the owners set the rules they all have to live by, not the Employees (players).
July 21st, 2010 at 9:11 pm
BMA — did you know that Penn said this week that he was eager to get back? Praised the organization for the drafting? Said it was going to be an exciting year? Did you know he said all that this week?
Penn knows the score
July 21st, 2010 at 9:11 pm
I love AB, but Marshall is miles better, IMO.
As you said, we will find out if Miami made the right move.
Less than 10% chance that either Williams or Benn ever plays at BM’s level, which has been spectacular.
And at 26, has a long career ahead.
July 21st, 2010 at 9:21 pm
And he cost Price and another premium player next year, right? A Wide receiver with a HORRIFIC record of conflicts and an undisclosed hip surgery. Thank goodness you are not th GM:
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/12032/broncos-had-no-choice-but-to-deal-marshall
July 21st, 2010 at 9:23 pm
The Buccaneers need to make sure Penn is in uniform in week 1. Without him, Freeman is screwed, and he’ll be that much closer to being a bust when he’s getting slammed to the ground.
July 21st, 2010 at 9:23 pm
The Buccaneers need to make sure Penn is in uniform in week 1. Without him, Freeman is screwed, and he’ll be that much closer to being a bust when he’s getting slammed to the ground.
July 21st, 2010 at 9:31 pm
Penn will not give up a $250K check and the chance to play and prove is worth. If he were going to sit out why would he be down 40 lbs?
July 21st, 2010 at 9:33 pm
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/06/brandon-marshall-returns-to-miami-dolphins-ota-workouts/1
Hips fine:
http://www.miamidolphins.com/news/dolphins-wide-receiver-brandon-marshall-host-free-camp-saturday-june-26
So is Brandon’s attitude.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:23 pm
JB, I hope you’re right about Penn.
Eric, where did you come up with 10%? Is there some sort of BSPN Gestapo Formula involving Stats fed into a Permutation Matrix that brings it to 10%??? And if so was that same formula used on Marshall in his rookie season. I would say that Marshall had a 90% chance of becoming an @$$hole, but I can’t prove it with the matrix, only from his performance on and off the field. I think BM is as good as a WR may be, but I hate cancer, it eats up everything around it, and that boy is as Malignant as it gets.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:26 pm
I still think it would be nice if the Bucs through a little Bonus Money Penn’s way just to show some appreciation, which employers do for high-steppers in high earning companies. The Bucs still have to be a Cash Cow even with low ticket sales.
July 21st, 2010 at 10:26 pm
“threw” oops haha.
July 22nd, 2010 at 2:10 pm
@Eric…What makes you so sure BM had a chance of landing in TB anyway?
July 22nd, 2010 at 2:11 pm
In other words, how can it be a mistake if he has a great year? Did discussions break down and the Bucs refuse to sign him at the last moment? Not that I can remember. So, how can his performance matter to the Bucs as far as mistakes go?
July 22nd, 2010 at 2:23 pm
@Eric
“Less than 10% chance that either Williams or Benn ever plays at BM’s level, which has been spectacular.”
Really, you can not even be excited about the future of these two outstanding college players? They may outshine BM for all you know. Just when I think you might start cheering up, you go all crazy again. Benn and Williams have untapped potential, so no one knows if they will be great NFL receivers, serviceable receivers, or complete busts. 10%, what a freaking crock.
July 22nd, 2010 at 5:36 pm
Mcbuc,
Statistics would bear out my opinion. How many guys have marshall’s stats? He is on a Jerry Rice pace.
How many high Wideout draft choices pan out?