Chucky’s Drafts Killed His Days With Bucs
June 25th, 2010
"Hey, Dexter Jackson, long time no see. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about you, brother!"
As Joe is wont to do when he’s not watching the NFL Network, Joe listens to Sirius NFL Radio (in-between bursts of times when Joe’s listening to the King of All Media, Howard Stern).
This morning co-hosting “The Opening Drive” with Bob Papa was Gil Brandt, one of the greatest front office executives and personnel men the NFL has ever had. Somehow, talk wandered upon the NFC South and Brandt, in detailing why the Bucs are struggling of late, pinpointed Chucky’s drafts.
“Tampa Bay over the past three years had eight players who are no longer in the National Football League. I think that tells you something right there.”
Now Joe thinks the world of Brandt, but Joe’s not sure if he was having a senior moment or not. That written, Joe believes he gets the gist of what Brandt was trying to say: Chucky couldn’t draft for s[p]it, which is why he is torturing us currently on BSPN’s Monday Night Football broadcasts.
Joe decided to revisit Chucky’s last three drafts. Here they are:
2006
Players still with Bucs:
Davin Joseph OG, Jeremy Trueblood, OT, Maurice Stovall WR. Notre Dame
Players somewhere else:
Alan Zemaitis CB, Julian Jenkins DE, Bruce Gradkowski QB, T.J. Williams TE, Justin Phinisee CB, Charles Bennett OT, Tim Massaquoi TE
2007
Players still with Bucs:
Sabby Piscitelli S, Quincy Black OLB, Tanard Jackson CB, Adam Hayward LB.
Players somewhere else:
Gaines Adams DE, Arron Sears T, Chris Denman T, Marcus Hamilton CB, Kenneth Darby RB.
2008
Players still with Bucs:
Aqib Talib CB, Jeremy Zuttah G, Josh Johnson QB, Dre Moore DT, Geno Hayes OLB
Players somewhere else:
Dexter Jackson WR, Cory Boyd RB
This doesn’t exactly remind Joe of the drafts the Steelers had in the early 1970s, but it’s a pretty clear example of why Chucky is no longer cursing out Bucs players (to their faces).
June 25th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Joe – To be fair, this type of analysis should be done with a comparison of all other team draft results for the same period. Was Chucky/Allen better than the average, worse than the average or in the bucket with 60% of all teams during the same period? We’re not seeing the whole picture here.
June 25th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Cue the “Dominick was part of those drafts” in 3…..2…..1…..
June 25th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
The draft is on Allen, and you can see it up in D.C. now.
Gruden hitching to Allen’s wagon killed his days with the Bucs.
June 25th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Nick and Nuke, I agree. Funny how out of those remaining-with-the-team draft picks in those years 90% are starters. Not to mention Caddy, Clayton(PFFFT!), Ruud, and Will Allen from other years. While they were not great drafts, they were not horrible. Not counting death and mental issues, some of the players somewhere else are now with other teams, too.
June 25th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
These are two comments I previously posted that pertain to lack of quality draft picks.
Vince Lombardi with Chuck noll and Bill Walsh couldn’t have won with this team (or the schedule) last year. Several coaches over the years have told me that in the Pro’s; it has way more to do with talent or lack of then it does in college. I’m not sticking up for Morris because sometimes I think he might lack the experience and especially the maturity to run this team. All I’m saying is the team is suffering from years of poor drafts. Whether from lack of quality picks or poor judgement; the main reason the organization is in this spot is none of our prime draft picks has worked out. Just think of all the wasted picks in recent years where the player isn’t even servicable enough for special teams. All you have to do is wait and see what the final record is this year. 3-13 he is gone and most of you will be happy; 7-9 he stays and everyone will be pleasantly surprised.
Next post was:
Donnie Abraham, Ronde Barber, John Lynch, Brian Kelly, Dexter Jackson, Warren Sapp, Derrick Brooks, Shelton Quarles, Mike Alstott, Warrick Dunn, Keyshawn Johnson, Karl (the truth) Williams, Randell McDanial, Jeff Christy, Cosey Coleman, Frank Middleton, Mark Royals etc..etc…
There have to be at least 10 Pro Bowlers on this list and I’m not sure I’ve got everyone from that time frame. These players were the backbone of the entire organization for years. A few actually played their entire careers here in Tampa. My whole arguement is the fact that the Bucs have had to start from scratch. Whoever or whatever the reason for all the unsuccessful drafts is not the point. The simple fact is we need the horses to get back in the race.
June 25th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
But wait…. don’t teams usually keep only half their draft pick to begin with? I mean think of all the 6th and 7th rounders who don’t make it.
I’d like to see a league average of players kept per draft…
Also, going back more than 4 years to ’06 changes things too… that’s quite a while ago… Bruce Gradkowski QB is the starter in Oakland.
So, has anyone done an analysis of Dungy’s drafts? And Comparing 4 years of draft history in relation to the roster?
Now, Dungy didn’t exactly have free will to sign free agents… as did Gruden… and that is what the Glazers hated the most…. SPENDING MONEY… LMAO!!!
June 25th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
AtlBucsFan:
Joe is assuming the three-year stretch he highlighted was what Gil Brandt was referring to, which was the rationale for the post. Brandt was not specific about which three-year period he was referring to, but he did say it was bad.
June 25th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
RahDomDaBest:
Gotta take exception there. Brad Johnson, Meshawn Johnson and Simeon Rice were all acquired when Father Dungy was here. Those were some big ticket salaries.
June 25th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
Nice, Gil Brandt says it, everyone is all ears! Capt.Tim ‘s been saying it for six months, and nobody pays attention!
Told ya so!! Lol
June 25th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Rahdomdadumbass,
I’d like to go back four years . . .
Hmmm, yer post and points were idiotic
Fast forward ta the present . .
Hmmm, yer post and points are STILL idiotic
I wish the Bucs had that kinda consistency 🙂
June 25th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
DOnt get me wrong Iloved Gruden but this story is very true. Just think if gruden was still hear Marc Bulger or some vetran QB would be are QB. Gruden Personal moves were ate best way below avarage. Investing aging players for a year or two then doing the same thing over and over. Lastly the Dexter Jackson thing wow passed on Deshawn jackson 3 times traded back then took Dexter Jackson
June 25th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Those drafts haven’t been greats, but in all reality, Gruden was severely handicapped by the Keyshawn Johnson and Gruden trades.
Let’s look at the first two rounds from 2000-2004. Those picks should have been solid starters in the post-Super Bowl phase.
2000 First Round: Traded to Jets for Keyshawn
2000 First Round: Traded to Jets for Keyshawn
2000 Second Round: Cosey Coleman
2001 First Round: Kenyatta Walker
2001 Second Round: Traded to Buffalo as part of Kenyatta trade
2002 First Round: Traded to Oakland for Gruden
2002 Second Round: Traded to Oakland for Gruden
2003 First Round: Traded to Oakland for Gruden
2003 Second Round: Dewayne White
2004 First Round: Michael Clayton
2004 Second Round: Traded to Oakland for Gruden
So, to recap: Five years (and eleven picks) of picks in the first two rounds netted Cosey Coleman, Kenyatta Walker, Dewayne White, and Michael Clayton.
I’m not defending Gruden in any way, but he definitely was handicapped in the amount of young talent infused into the team when he got here.
June 25th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
aye aye Captain; I hear ya. Fire them cannon’s…..
June 25th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
CappyTimmy
So, has anyone done an analysis of Dungy’s drafts? And Comparing 4 years of draft history in relation to the roster?
How does that not make sense to you? That’s the analysis… comparing 3 drafts starting from 5 years ago, minus 2 off-seasons and 2 of Raheem’s drafts. And yes, it is technically 5 because Raheem has already had 2 drafts… Raheem has 2 draft classes under his belt and 2 off-seasons… that is turn over for two off-seasons.
But anyway, what about Dungy’s drafts? You scared???
June 25th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
RahDomDaBest:
Now, Dungy didn’t exactly have free will to sign free agents… as did Gruden… and that is what the Glazers hated the most…. SPENDING MONEY… LMAO!!!
Gotta take exception there. Brad Johnson, Meshawn Johnson and Simeon Rice were all acquired when Father Dungy was here. Those were some big ticket salaries.
Not to mention bringing in a new big name Offensive coordinator seemingly every year.
Hardy was brought in under Dungy too.
June 25th, 2010 at 3:18 pm
Like I stated before; there are several reasons why the draft has not been kind to the Buccaneers. We can all agree on one thing though; the cupboard has been bare for long enough. It’s time to restock the shelves! Please; No More Finesse Players!!!!!!!!!
June 25th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
#
“Hardy was brought in under Dungy too.”
Oops no he didn’t ….
June 25th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
why couldnt dominick pick the players raheem coach the defense and gruden coach the offense and the team. You may be able to question some of grudens drafts but noone can question the x’s and o’s and the drive of chucky. We are still paying him anyways.
June 25th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
If Gruden ever had a young QB with anywhere near as Talent laden and having the work ethic of Freeman we would not be having this conversation.
June 25th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Actually Father Dungy did have more free reign.
Name someone on the level of Rice or Meyshawn that came when Chucky was here?
Maybe Jeff Faine. Maybe.
Jeff Garcia was probably on the same level as Brad Johnson.
June 25th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Hardy Nickerson — as did Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp and John Lynch — came here under Sam Wyche.
June 25th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
I can question his x’s and o’s too. His 5th season with the team, the offense was basically as bad as last year. (You know, the year we fired the OC before game 1, made the QB coach the OC, and everyone was lost all year… yeah that year). The Bucs went 4-12 under Gruden, and his offense was one of the absolute worst in the NFL that year and one of the worst in Bucs history (which doesn’t say much coz we’ve never been known for offense). But it was Gruden… offensive guru… as bad as The Dream.
June 25th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
As for DeSean and Dexter Jackson, the former ran the 40 in 4.35(5’9″, 170) and the latter, who we drafted, ran the 40 with fastest time of the WRs in that draft at 4.27(5’9″, 182). It really is a crap shoot, but it does seem that they looked at his combine numbers. Also DeSean was the 7 WR drafted in that draft, so Im not sure what all the comparison fuss is about.
BTW I don’t remember us trading up and back. We picked Talib 1st rnd and then Dexter in the 2nd at 58 and DeSean was gone to the Eagles at 49. Again 6 other WRs went before him, too.
June 25th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Sam wyche had the best overall drafts because of Brooks, Lynch & Sapp. Three future hall of famers! You have to give him credit for that.
Dungy had Alstott, Donnie Abraham, Warrick Dunn, Ronde Barber, Brian kelly, Dexter Jackson, Cosey Coleman. 2001 could have been the biggest waste of a draft I’ve ever seen though.
Gruden had Jermaine Phillips 3rd round 2002, 2nd rounder in 2003 but no one worth mentioning that year; Michael Clayton 1st round 2004 nothing else; 2005 was probably his best draft with Cadillac, Ruud, Alex Smith, Dan Buening, Donte Nicholson & Chris Colmer; 2006 gave us Joseph, Trueblood and Stovall; 2007 Tanard Jackson & Quincy Black; 2008 Aquib Talib & Geno Hayes was a nice 6th round find.
Just looking at this I would say that the Bucs in general have had problems with the draft since 2001. Some good players in these groups, but notice one thing is missing……Superstars
June 25th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
I respect Gil Brandt knowledge of Players and Player stats. But he Lack the ability to breakdown organizations. Almost any team that is under .500 wins could be labeled as bad drafts. And if it was bad drafts that did Gruden in why did the Glazers interveiw players and Fans? why did they have a meeting with Gruden and told him everthing is fine then fire him 2 weeks later. Why did Bruce Allen was told to fire Gruden only, He refuses and gets fired himself. All i know is that Gruden’s draft did him in, sounds like when they told us that Antonio Bryant was causing interceptions with his route running.
June 25th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
BamBam, Is that “the” fifth season, when we started Rookies Davin, Trueblood, and Gradkowski, had our RB Caddy go down with first knee injury, had Simeon go out mid-season on IR, when Alstott was catering to neck issues and contemplating retiring? Just was wondering.
Actually, if I remember correctly Joey Galloway was the only bright spot. Stepping up and catching 80+ passes(from Simms and Gradkowski), 1200+ yds, 10 tds.
June 25th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
@ Oar you are right made a mistake. I do know that they passsed up on alot of Receviers to get Dexter Jackson but you were right I was wrong
June 25th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
I am shocked. A negative article about Gruden and still no response from Thomas and Eric? Has anyone checked the local emergency rooms? I am sure those guys have blown more than a few gaskets after seeing this article. Yikes!
June 25th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Tj, It’s cool. I can’t remeber as good as I used too, but didn’t seem to recall that. They did pass on a few WRs for sure. His speed at the combine is what sucked (pun intended) them into drafting him, I think.
June 25th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
oops, “TJ”… and “remember”….can’t type worht crap either.
June 25th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Players that Gruden drafted:
Cadillac Williams RB, Barrett Ruud LB
Davin Joseph OG, Jeremy Trueblood, OT, Maurice Stovall WR. Notre Dame
Quincy Black OLB, Tanard Jackson CB, Arron Sears T,
Aqib Talib CB, Jeremy Zuttah G, Geno Hayes OLB
I don’t count Arron Sears as a draft bust as we was a great lineman and just was cut due to personal issues. That’s not Gruden’s fault.
Well it seems like most of those guys are looking good for us and are the guys we are trying to build the team around. So if they turn out to be great and all become the foundation for our future, what will you all be saying about Gruden’s drafts???? Raheem will be winning with “Gruden’s team.”
Who built our offensive line??? Gruden did. And Raheem is currently destroying the offensive line by not giving Penn a contract and making him angry. He also kicked Arron Sears, our 2nd round pick to the curb, not having a plan B in place.
Outside of the draft, Gruden also brought in some good free agents. Among them were Donald Penn, hidden gem Antonio Bryant, Stylez G. White, and Jimmy Wilkerson. Raheem is got rid of Bryant, Wilkerson, and might just run Penn out of town.
Dungy’s drafts weren’t all that great either people. He probably produced as many good draft picks as Gruden did. Donnie Abraham, Barber, Alstott, Kelly, Jackson, that’s about it. Having Brooks, Sapp, Nickerson, and Lynch here plus the free agents (Brad Johnson, Simeon Rice) plus Keyshawn in a trade were big reasons why Dungy won also.
June 25th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
Roster 2003
3 Year Period 1999, 2000, 2001
47.8% Made it
Anthony McFarland___________ On Roster ___ 2003
Cosey Coleman ___________ On Roster ___ 2003
David Gibson ___________ On Roster ___ 2003
Dwight Smith ___________ On Roster ___ 2003
Ellis Wyms ___________ On Roster ___ 2003
Jameel Cook ___________ On Roster ___ 2003
John Howell ___________ On Roster ___ 2003
Kenyatta Walker ___________ On Roster ___ 2003
Martin Gramatica___________ On Roster ___ 2003
Nate Webster ___________ On Roster ___ 2003
Shaun King ___________ On Roster ___ 2003
Autry Denson ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Darnell McDonald___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Dauntae Finger ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Dexter Jackson ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
James Whalen ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Joe Hamilton ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Joe Tafoya ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
John McLaughlin ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Lamarr Glenn ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Robert Hunt ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Russ Hochstein ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Than Merrill ___________ Not on Roster _ 2003
Roster 2002
3 Year Period 1998, 1999, 2000
42.9% Made it
Anthony McFarland___________ On Roster ___ 2002
Brian Kelly ___________ On Roster ___ 2002
Cosey Coleman ___________ On Roster ___ 2002
David Gibson ___________ On Roster ___ 2002
Dexter Jackson ___________ On Roster ___ 2002
Martin Gramatica___________ On Roster ___ 2002
Nate Webster ___________ On Roster ___ 2002
Shaun King ___________ On Roster ___ 2002
Todd Washington ___________ On Roster ___ 2002
Autry Denson ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
Chance McCarty ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
Darnell McDonald___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
Jacquez Green ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
James Cannida ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
James Whalen ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
Jamie Duncan ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
Joe Hamilton ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
John McLaughlin ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
Lamarr Glenn ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
Robert Hunt ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
Shevin Smith ___________ Not on Roster _ 2002
Roster 2001
3 Year Period 1997, 1998, 1999
50% Made it
Alshermond Singleton___________ On Roster ___ 2001
Anthony McFarland___________ On Roster ___ 2001
Brian Kelly ___________ On Roster ___ 2001
Dexter Jackson ___________ On Roster ___ 2001
Jacquez Green ___________ On Roster ___ 2001
James Cannida ___________ On Roster ___ 2001
Jamie Duncan ___________ On Roster ___ 2001
Jerry Wunsch ___________ On Roster ___ 2001
Martin Gramatica___________ On Roster ___ 2001
Reidel Anthony ___________ On Roster ___ 2001
Al Harris ___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
Anthony DeGrate ___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
Autry Denson ___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
Chance McCarty ___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
Darnell McDonald___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
Frank Middleton ___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
John McLaughlin ___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
Lamarr Glenn ___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
Nigea Carter ___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
Patrick Hape ___________ Not on Roster _ 2001
Roster 2000
3 Year Period 1996, 1997, 1998
57.7% Made it
Alshermond Singleton___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Brian Kelly ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Donnie Abraham ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Frank Middleton ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Jacquez Green ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
James Cannida ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Jamie Duncan ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Jerry Wunsch ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Marcus Jones ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Mike Alstott ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Patrick Hape ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Reidel Anthony ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Ronde Barber ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Todd Washington ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Warrick Dunn ___________ On Roster ___ 2000
Al Harris ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Anthony DeGrate ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Chance McCarty ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Eric Austin ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Jason Maniecki ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Jason Odom ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Nigea Carter ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Nilo Silvan ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Regan Upshaw ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Reggie Rusk ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
Shevin Smith ___________ Not on Roster _ 2000
June 25th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
@ oar
Yeah, that’s the season. Sounds a lot like the season where Sears went AWOL, Bryant was out with injuries (and in with injuries), Faine was gone for a chunk of the season, TJack was suspended for 4 games, and we had first year starters at SS, WLB, SLB, a new O and D that didn’t stick, a rookie head coach, rookie GM, attempted to use Clayton to fill in when AB was hurt and he wasn’t hurt himself, had a RB come back from 2 major knee surgeries (and had a pretty good year, considering), lost our FB to injury again, had to play practice squad WRs when both MC and AB were hurt, etc.
Yep, other than Superstar HC and DC vs Rookie HC and GM, it sounds pretty much the same. Even the results.
June 25th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
Patrick said:
Who built our offensive line??? Gruden did.
You make that sound like it is a good thing??? All I’m hearing is how bad our O-line is, how little depth we have at O-line. I hear how Trueblood has too many false starts and drive killing PFs. I hear how putting Zuttah back in this year with Sears gone may be more dangerous than losing Penn.
Seems to me the only strengths of the O-line are Faine and Joseph, with nobody next to them or behind them.
June 25th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Besides, I thought Kenyatta Walker was supposed to be the great LT that would be around for the next 10 years when we got him. He couldn’t even play LT, moved to RT, and where is he now? Who brought him in?
June 25th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Rahdomdadumbass,
Jesus, that’s the longest post in history!! What did ya do, track the Bucs to the dinosaur days!!
I’m sorry, I didn’t waste an hour ta analyze it.
Cause I knew it was another idiotic attempt to prove your point. Which is also idiotic
June 25th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
BamBam, Dungy drafted Kenyatta Walker in 2001. Dwight Smith and Jamel Cook were the only good picks in that year.
June 25th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
Also the zone-blocking fiasco hampered the O-line, I think, and took a year or at least 3/4 of a year away from more development. Sears’ issue was not a forseeable problem.
June 25th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Winning records three out of the last four years, with two Division Titles.
Previous Super Bowl Champs. Best record in Bucs History.
All the rest is mindless bitching, and running this excellent coach out of town has directly led to the current total debacle. Congratulations you idiots.
More evidence of the above to coming soon to a Gridiron near you. However, you may have to drive to Fort Myers to see the home regular season debacles.
June 25th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Meanwhile, 46% of Gruden’s drafted players are on the current roster.
While Dungy’s averages were 47.8%, 42.9%, 50% and 57.7%…. the last 2 percentages were wehn the team sucked and needed to add players.
But on average, when looking back at a 3 year draft average from a roster 5 drafts later (as in this article’s case) the average is around 50%.
June 25th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
The offensive line has crumbled since Bill Muir was fired.
June 25th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
@ CaptBlindMan
Those were Dungy’s drafting comparions using the same methodolgy that this article is written.
When biased individuals make biased assumptions without facts to back it up, they spew hate on Gruden, while love Dungy to no end. Most of the Dungy lover’s bias is based on their LOVE for Dungy and Hatred for Gruden… and the above numbers prove it.
There is no significant basis to the arguement of Gruden’s drafting history when compared to Dungy.
Sam Wyche had the best draft of all… he wins the Super Bowl… hell, put HIM in the ring of honor.
June 25th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
I now wonder if this 50% average is across the NFL as a whole.
June 25th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
@BamBamBuc
The offensive line IS a strength, but Raheem is making it worse.
Faine and Joseph ARE strengths. If Sears was still here he would be a strength too. Penn is a strength, but Raheem and Dominik don’t seem to care that Freeman will be getting dropped 100 times next year.
Jeremy Zuttah was drafted more for depth if you recall, not really for being a starter. By 2008, the year he was drafted, Sears and Joseph were already the sure starters on the line and he was supposed to just back up one of them and provide depth.
I agree that Trueblood has too many penalties, but other than that he’s a pretty good lineman. If he could just work on the penalty problem, that would be very big.
Gruden did build us a good O-line. If our offensive line plummets in 2010, you can thank Raheem and Dominik. They got rid of Sears, and didn’t have a sure Plan B replacement for him. That’s one hole. If Donald Penn doesn’t play and we have Dotson the basketball player starting, that’s gonna definitely doom our offense. It’s not Gruden’s fault that Sears later on had mental problems and that Raheem just released him. It’s not his fault that Dominik is treating Penn like crap and that he won’t lock him up.
Raheem does not have a plan at all. Look at the Sears thing for example. The situation had been going on for a while long before the draft and FA happened, and other than Sears, our only option is Zuttah who struggled last year filling in for him. After not drafting an offensive lineman in the 2010 draft, you have to think that Sears is gonna come back of course. All of a sudden, he’s jettisoned by Raheem and BOOM, we have no replacement for him and it’s gonna be the same guy as last year. Zuttah. We could’ve gotten a guy in free agency or the draft, but like I just said, Raheem didn’t have a plan, didn’t think ahead of time, and didn’t know what he was doing of course.
June 25th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
A division title sure would go down good about now…………..
nahhhhhhhhhhhhh that would suck accoring to the Gruden bashers.
June 25th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
Not sure why everyone is debating Dungy and Gruden still? I mean neither are coaching the team right now.
This is now Raheem’s team. He and ownership said that they are going to build perrinial division champions that will run deep into the play offs. That’s what they said and thats what I believe.
This year, Raheem gets another pass…. why? Because he is still learning, he is young, we have to give him a chance. You guys need to lower your expectations for Raheem until he is ready to lead. I mean Rome wasn’t built in a day, and it’s appearent that Raheem is building the Persian Empire here.
Look, we all have to be patient, give Raheem time, let him have 5 more drafts and then look back and judge him. Let’s give him the opportunity to grow into his position. Buy tickets, show your support, buy a Josh Freeman jersey, sit back and enjoy the ride. Sure we will have more loses than wins now, but eventually we will be hovering around .500 on the verge of competing for the wild card. After the wild card comes the division. Then the next year deep play off run. Then onto the Super Bowl. Gve Raheem 5 years and we will be in the Bowl by then.
June 25th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
With Chucky at the Helm, we always had a chance to win.
I miss Chucky.
I love you Brother.
Thanks for everything.
June 26th, 2010 at 12:02 am
04 and 06 we did not always have a chance to win. I liked Gruden, but I’m not gonna give him a pass on those seasons, and not gonna give him a pass on the talent level being so thinned out when he left.
Sears was not Raheem’s fault. He had personal issues, they gave him time to deal with them. Before the draft he was in working out and they figured he’d be there this season. Now, none of us know what transpired to cause his release, but I think a good bet is that he’s not entirely in control of whatever situation he’s dealing with and it wasn’t clear before the draft. Penn is a known issue, and they still expect him to play this year. The O-line is not a strength of our team. Over the last 3 years, average per carry was 4.0 under Raheem (Absolutely HORRIBLE) and 4.1 and 4.2 the last 2 years of Gruden (Awesome!!! We were great back then!!!). This supposed great O-line has never had us at the top of the league in rushing. None of the RB’s (Caddy, Graham or Ward) have had near the top of the league. I don’t really care what the league standings were, the average was pretty much the same. Of course, if I’d go back one more year to 06, we had a 3.8 ypc average. Caddy didn’t get hurt til week 4 of 07.
June 26th, 2010 at 12:15 am
Back on topic…
2006
Players still with Bucs:
Davin Joseph OG, Jeremy Trueblood, OT, Maurice Stovall WR. Notre Dame
Joseph – Pro Bowl
Trueblood – all I hear are complaints about drive killing penalties
Stovall – Special teams stud, non-starter
2007
Players still with Bucs:
Sabby Piscitelli S, Quincy Black OLB, Tanard Jackson CB, Adam Hayward LB.
Sabby – Has anyone heard him called “The Goat”?
Black – Never started for Gruden, possible flashes last year under Raheem
TJack – Good pick, starter, off field issues (suspension)
Hayward – Non-starter, special teams
2008
Players still with Bucs:
Aqib Talib CB, Jeremy Zuttah G, Josh Johnson QB, Dre Moore DT, Geno Hayes OLB
Talib – Stud, possible Pro Bowl caliber
Zuttah – starter, but we’re hearing that may be the weak spot on the line
JJ – backup QB and possible “wildcat” threat
Moore – Who? Practice squad first year, never able to start over Sims?
Hayes – Started for Raheem, too early to tell how good or bad
Basically, I see two or three guys in 3 years that are any more than below average to average players. That would be Talib and Joseph with TJack thrown in if he doesn’t get suspended.
June 26th, 2010 at 1:45 am
OK, if Gruden doesn’t get a pass, then The Dream doesn’t deserve one. Sucks for him that he was hired with NO experience. That’s life!
Gruden was at the Storm game tonight. It was great to see him and he received a warm reception with countless fans requesting pictures with him.
I’ve said this before, Gruden will be a head coach again soon. I just hope it’s not in the NFC South because the Bucs will be paying regularly for letting him get away. If the only problem with him was his drafts, you’d think that would have been something that could have been corrected — because he is undeniably a hell of a coach. Every game was winable when he was the coach. Everyone expected the Bucs to make the playoffs when Gruden was running things and most of the time they were. Now expectations are so low, many will be estatic with a 5 win season. What joke!
June 26th, 2010 at 4:14 am
Yeah, thanks chucky, your lousy drafting, along with you horrible coaching skills with young players, have left this team with lame starters and absolutely no depth. We will be stuck rebuilding for several more years, because you ate up this teams talent like a cancer.
Just like you did to the Raiders- exactly the same
But strangely, you still have dummies here defending you. Arguing “players still on roster”, instead of ” why is that loser playing!!”
Ain’t that funny. Some people are clueless
June 26th, 2010 at 8:51 am
Chucky did an outstanding job with both the Raiders and the Bucs.
Several winning seasons, Division Titles, playoff appearances, and one Super Bowl Campionship.
Idiots who support Raheem Morris as Head coach and attempt to manipulate the data through the prism of their stupidity, notwithstanding.
Once the Disastrous season unfolds write your Chucky apology to:
PO BOX “I’m sorry Chucky I dont know jack about football and never will”
Tampa, FL USA
June 26th, 2010 at 9:25 am
Proving conclusively that “man crushes” cause blindness and brain damage
June 26th, 2010 at 11:13 am
thomas:
“Everyone expected the Bucs to make the playoffs when Gruden was running things and most of the time they were. ”
Once again.. fuzzy math. Gruden coached 7 years and made 3 playoff appearances. That’s less than 50%, which would not be “most of the time”. And one of those 3 division titles was by default, as the entire NFC South sucked and we took it with a 9-7 record… barely a winning record. Even the #6 seed Redskins had a 9-7 record, so if any other NFC South team had done anything, we may not have gotten a wild card spot. Thank the other 3 division teams for tanking that year to give us “Division title #3 under Gruden”.
June 26th, 2010 at 11:36 am
@BamBam, is that the same NFC South you expect to lay down this year so the Bucs can go from worst to first?
By the way Einstein, that was me who said, ““Everyone expected the Bucs to make the playoffs when Gruden was running things and most of the time they were.”
You’re all big talk, but I bet if you ran into Gruden in person, you’d be first in line to get his autograph and your picture with him.
June 26th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
Dungy’s drafts were about the same as Gruden’s.
Did you see the results I posted?
Don’t want to face the music do you Timmy and BamBamm… don’t want to face the music. I have always known Dungy fans to be liberal p*ssys who only see things their way. LOL!!!
June 26th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
@ RahDom
Don’t presume to know my political affiliation. You have no clue.
@ Louie
Sorry to mistake that it was you (and not thomas) who doesn’t understand math and thinks 3 of 7 is “most of the time”.
And yes, I liked Gruden, even though he didn’t do much of anything past his first year. He never won another playoff game after that season. Six years with no playoff wins, I was ready to move on and see if we could maybe get back to at least making the NFC Championship if not the Super Bowl. I would get an autograph or a picture with him, he coached my favorite team. I would also get a picture and autograph from Dungy, Wyche, and most any of the previous coaches or players.
June 26th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Hell Yeah! i would be the first in line to get Gruden’s autograph. why not he took us to the Super Bowl. Id be snapping photos of us making snarling faces. hahaha it would be fun! I was and am a fan of Gruden.
That being said was it time for him to go from Tampa yeah it was…
June 26th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Cpl Tim, what’s up?
You call people haters for bashing Raheem and Dom, but yet when people talk about their admiration of Chucky, you spew the same venom. I would call that a double standard on the hypocritical side. I happen to like Raheem and Chucky, and today Raheem isn’t yet a pimple on Chucky’s A$$. In a couple more years he may be there. That doesn’t make Rah a bad coach. He just isn’t in the same class as Chucky, not even close. And no one works harder than Gruden. Gru/Allen had some bad draft picks for sure, but what team hasn’t. The mere fact you called Chucky a horrible coach, shows how little you know about the Game. Horrible Coaches don’t win Superbowls under any circumstances. How many championship rings does Cpl Tim have???
June 26th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
By using the same comparison method as the article, Dungy wasn’t much more successful at drafting either. The roster in the 5th season, post the drafts from season 1,2, and 3… the same amount of players remained on roster from those 3 draft classes… about 50%.
And it is probably like that across the NFL too. All draft picks don’t stay on the team… heck 50% don’t stay on the team, 5 drafts later. It’s called turn over. It’s a bogus analysis.
The funniest thing, there are probably 2 guys in this world that wishes these silly comparisons of Dungy and Gruden would just go away once and for all…. and those two people are Dungy and Gruden.
June 26th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
This is madness.
Using the coaches in any capacity when talking about the Bucs drafting is just not sensible. From Dungy , to Gruden and now Morris none of those coaches had final say over who was drafted. That is the job of the GM, since the Glazers have taken over it has been that way.
The names McKay, Allen and Dominik have been grossly under-used in this thread.
Perennial contenders have; 1) a Franchise QB, and 2) good drafts or very good drafts.
And McKay and Allen (or any GM) should be fired if making those two things happen proves too difficult for them.
June 26th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
BigMac,
You , of all people, pulling a jimbuc!
What I said was- horrible coaching of young players. Which he absolutely sucks at. As far as coaching to an experienced( coached by others) NFL team, he’s the best. Fantastic X and O guy. But again, cannot teach young players, and won’t try. Problem is, his attitude turns off vets, which is why they layed down on him the last games of his last year, and deliberately got his ass fired
June 26th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
@Capt. Tim: Where did all that crap come from that Gruden didn’t develop young players?
When looking at the drafts above, does anyone notice most of those players are defenders? They didn’t draft too many offensive players during that period of time because the defense was aging and had to be rebuilt. Prior to that, the Buc didn’t have a whole hell of a lot of high picks due to the compensation paid to Oakland. However, during that time they were able to get the OLine rebuilt. Before that, they got Caddy and Clayton who are still on the team. So, just what the hell is Gruden suppose to do for offensive players when you’re drafting for defense???
Maybe you’re talking about not developing a young QB. OK, McKay forced Simms on Gruden. He tried to make it work, but it didn’t. What the hell has Simms done since leaving the Bucs? NOTHING. How about Gradkowski, a 6th round pick? Grads was forced into duty as a rookie and it wasn’t pretty — much like last year with Freeman. Grads is the starter by default in Oakland right now — not bad for him, but I think Gruden decided to go with McCown as his young stud until he was fired. Next we have JJ. JJ was raw, but has potential. JJ just happens to be our 2nd string QB right now. Not too bad for a 5th round pick.
So, just how is Gruden suppose to use a high draft pick on a QB, when at the same time the Bucs are rebuilding their defense? Oh, that’s right, they did that last year and look what happened — the defense ended up last in the league and the DLine was a wet paper bag. It looks to me Gruden did a pretty good job holding things together and still fielding a competitive team.
Would Gruden have been allowed to gut the team and go 3-13 last year like The Dream? Would he have been allowed a second losing season in 2010 like The Dream is going to have? I think not. Gruden did what he had to do.
June 26th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
Louie, agree with most of your comments except this:
“Would Gruden have been allowed to gut the team and go 3-13 last year like The Dream? Would he have been allowed a second losing season in 2010 like The Dream is going to have? I think not. Gruden did what he had to do.”
It’s a none issue because all of the things you mention happended because of Gruden (and Allen). Gruden managed to pull out a few winning seasons, but his approach (and the lack of picks) kept the team in neutral.
June 26th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
Capt Tim,
You , of all people, pulling a jimbuc!
LOL!
I did that all the way.
Now, I’m the man. Move it on over JimBuc.
June 26th, 2010 at 10:02 pm
If Gruden put us in neutral, what are we in now?
Quadruple reverse?
June 26th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
do we get 7 years to answer that question eric? wouldn’t that be fair? Morris (or whomever) would only have to end up a few games over .500 to match Gruden, right?
June 27th, 2010 at 8:34 am
These drafts are on our pathetic scouting department ( most of who are still here , by the way).
Gruden didn’t go out and watch film on every player in college. No head coach does. They don’t have time.
They rely on thier scouting department to bring them a list of players they believe to be most talented and best suited for thier system , and the coach and GM make the final decision based on those suggestions.
I’m willing to bet Gruden never even watched a Appalachian State game before they picked Dexter Jackson , but one of our scouts raved about his speed and the deep threat he could provide us , and suprise , you have a bust.
June 27th, 2010 at 8:38 am
2008 draft is shaping up to be pretty good , BTW.
June 27th, 2010 at 10:04 am
@jimbuc
Sure, if year one of the Morris regime was a Super Bowl Championship.
June 27th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Louie,
Oh yeah, Gruden rocked at young talent. That’s why I’m tripping over all pros everytime I go to the game. Plus I’m getting shoved around by all those great young players, dying to upstage those all pros and take there jobs away. Oh yeah, Canton oughta just send guys here and make bust of everybody ! Whole frikkin team of hall of famers! Glazers petitioning the hall to induct entire 2010 squad! All at once!! That Gruden, what a guy! The Raiders are writing that same petition. Nuthin but AllStars
BigMac! Alas, tis a sad day for the Good Capt! A fellow fine poster has fallen by the wayside, swayed into servitude by ” the comment Nazi”. Truely sad, but I must hereby dub thee ” BigMacBuc”. But I do so with sad heart,lol
June 27th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
Eric — you raise an interesting point. We know what type of team Dungy left Gruden. What type of team did Gruden leave behind?
June 28th, 2010 at 8:14 am
Who the hell said I was a Dungy fan!
While he did a great job coaching the team, his extremely conservative play calling in the playoffs might have cost us a chance at another SuperBowl. He played ” not to lose” in the playoffs, which never works. No, I thought it was his time to go also