Bull Rush: Woefully Flawed Plan For Kyle Moore
June 2nd, 2010
By STEVE WHITE
JoeBucsFan.com analyst
Former Buccaneers defensive end Steve White (1996-2001) is a devoted student of the game. He’s even authored a coaching guide and coached defensive linemen at the University of South Florida. And after all those years breaking down film with former defensive line coach Rod Marinelli and the other architects and legends of the Bucs’ defense, White shares his knowledge with JoeBucsFan.com readers every week in his must-read Bull Rush column.
I’m confused.
I could swear just a few weeks ago we were being sold a story from the Buccaneers about how important it was that we draft Brian Price in the second round even though we had just used our first round pick on Gerald McCoy who is the exact same type of player.
The story went that having two guys with such high draft grades at the same position to team up with second year player, Roy Miller, a 2009 third round pick, would go a long way towards shoring up the interior of our defense. We were going to go back to how the defense “used to” look we were told.
Isn’t that what we were told?
Well how, exactly, do these quotes on TBO.com fit into that equation?
“We think he’s going to be fine there,” [Todd] Wash said of [Kyle] Moore, who is slated to play first and second down at left end and move inside to tackle on obvious passing downs. “We’re really excited about him.
“He’s a guy who can really give guards some trouble on third down and give us some pass rush from the left end, because he’s got his explosion back. And what we’re seeing from him there is something we haven’t seen here in a while.”
Kyle Moore, as I suspected is being given first dibs at starting at left end, and that’s great. And really, before I go any further, I want to make sure everyone understands that this isn’t a knock against Moore.
But why with McCoy, Price, and Miller on the roster would we need Kyle Moore to move inside on third downs/obvious passing downs???
Let me be clear, that is NOT how we did things back in what most people consider the “glory years” of the Buccaneer defense.
When Brad Culpepper was our starting nosetackle, Culpepper stayed in and rushed on third downs.
When Booger McFarland was our starting nosetackle, Booger McFarland stayed in and rushed on third downs.
Really, that’s one of the upsides of having smaller, quicker nosetackles rather than the big burly two-down run-stoppers, and that is you have a guy who can play all three downs rather than having to waste both a roster spot and a spot on the active list on game day using two guys for one position.
Setting McCoy Up To Be Double-Teamed
And it’s not only that it’s an enormous waste of money to have three guys taken in the top three rounds of the last two drafts at a position and only use one on passing downs. From a practical on the field perspective, it’s a horrible move as well.
Here’s what you need to understand: on any given passing play an interior defensive lineman is going to get double-teamed. The center will either slide to one side or the other, or he will do what we call “M” set and backpedal straight backwards and then, after watching both directions, he will pick one guard to go and help out. But the wonderful thing about film study is that you can usually predict before the snap which way the center will slide or help out based on the formation.
Because of this, you can move your more dominant inside pass rusher to the side away from the center double team most of the time, knowing that the other guy will be double teamed but still have the option to run pass rush games or use bull rush techniques to overcome that.
So being that McCoy as the No. 3 pick in the draft is absolutely going to be in on all passing downs, who between he and Moore would get the single block and who would have to take on the double team?
If we want McCoy to be the second coming of Warren Sapp, that’s going to be awful hard to do rushing against a double team every passing down. If we are expecting to get something out of Moore inside on passing downs that’s going to be awfully hard to do if he is facing double tWeams every time. Especially after he lost weight to be a more effective defensive end.
And speaking of Moore, explain to me how this doesn’t hurt his development as a left end if he is constantly having to move inside to rush on passing downs?
I have made it known that I am not a fan at all of moving starting defensive ends around on third downs anyway. And I hate to say it, but I would venture to guess that if the Bucs indeed go forward with this plan that Moore will end up a lot like Gaines Adams, may he rest in peace, in that because he never gets to rush the guy on third down that he just got done setting up on first and second down; he will never put up the numbers that he should.
I mean seriously, think about the elite 4-3 defensive lines in the NFL right now. How many of them move their starting defensive ends inside on third down?
I can’t think of any.
Even the Vikings, who have a big beast inside at nosetackle in Pat Williams, keep pretty much their whole defensive line intact on third downs and passing downs. And if they do sub for Pat Williams, it’s to bring in another, lighter, defensive tackle in the game. It’s not to move a defensive end inside to replace him.
I don’t know whose bright idea this is, but I am just as against it as I was when they kept moving Gaines to the left side on passing downs, and when they proposed using Quincy Black as a defensive end on third downs, and when they kept moving Jimmy Wilkerson inside on third downs during the season.
It’s something I think a video gamer might do, but it’s not a serious professional NFL defensive line strategy. And whether anybody else buys it or not, I will guarantee you that I’m going to be vocal about my opposition going forward.
It’s an answer in search of a problem and it makes a helluva lot more sense to just give Price and Miller a chance to rush on third down.
It is what it is.
June 2nd, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Agreed 100%
June 2nd, 2010 at 1:21 pm
I don’t get it. Do they have absolutely no confidence in Miller (or Price)?
June 2nd, 2010 at 1:31 pm
It never ceases to amaze me how so-called fans and assorted malcontents will slag off everything the Buccaneers do to get better. We have had the best drafts in the NFL in 2009 and 2010, a talented coaching staff and front office that is the envy of the league, and we get this sort of rubbish.
Start following the Saints if you’re not willing to support the franchise.
June 2nd, 2010 at 1:53 pm
They, and every team, say alot of things in the offseason about things they MIGHT do. Doesn’t mean they will.
Odds are McCoy and Miller will be in there and when they have obvious passing downs Price will be in there in place of Miller. I also see Price rotating in and replacing Miller and McCoy now and then throughout the game.
Maybe moving Moore inside means they would move Price to DE once in awhile on passing downs. Whatever. it is not that big a deal. It is talk in the offseason and they are simply trying to find the best fit for everyone to allow them to shine. Steve White happens to disagree with this, so be it. I kind of do to, but don’t see it as a big deal.
BUCPOWER: love the optimism, but get a reality check: “the best drafts” and a staff & front offi ce that is the envy of the league? Either you are woefully naive or being sarcastic.
It does appear they have had a couple good drafts in a row, but no one actually knows for a couople more years how they will turn out.
June 2nd, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Great Steve, completely agree!
What happened to those sheep who spouted off after the draft that “Dom is genius” and “we “undeniably had a great draft” etc?
The draft didnt make sense in a lot of ways like: ignore o-line, ignore rb, draft a punter, take 2 guys in the same position twice.
It was not a great draft – sure mccoy was a no brainer after suh was gone – and williams was a risk/reward pick, but everywhere else I say this draft was unimpressive.
Thus, the team can’t be too improved even with a much easier schedule. I will judge this team by division record – 2-4 or worse means rah and dom get the door!
June 2nd, 2010 at 2:07 pm
BucPower only a fool agrees with every thing a team does whether it’s right or wrong. That’s not being a fan, that’s being a sycophant. Have fun with that.
June 2nd, 2010 at 2:10 pm
@Thomas
Price, Benn, Lewis and Watson will probably all be good players for us so I disagree with your take that our draft was unimpressive. It wasn’t the grand slam some made it out to be but it was still pretty good.
June 2nd, 2010 at 2:17 pm
@Dave
Listen I don’t know why Dominik mentioned Price playing end after we drafted him but it’s a pipe dream. He is going to have to bulk up to play nose and he is on the short side at around 6 ft 2 or less. Him playing end will only happen if/when we run a 3-4 in which case Moore definitely wouldn’t fit. It may seem like a small thing to you but it’s not. Getting off the field on 3rd down is a huge part of our defense’s success historically and how much Moore develops as a left end will be a major factor in how much better we play on D this year. It’s will matter a lot.
June 2nd, 2010 at 3:13 pm
@Bucpower
I like this draft class a great deal, and am typically a “glass half full guy”. I did not think Steve was bashing anything with this article, and he is right on if this is the way they will go. Dave makes a great point, teams say all sorts of misleading things in the off season. Also, Steve played on a great D line, so he is approaching it from a profesional point of view, not from a fan point of view. At least that is my take.
June 2nd, 2010 at 3:41 pm
I think when all the dust settles, Price, McCoy, and Miller rotate on the inside with White, Moore and Crowder on the outside. You can also probably throw in the occassional WTF formations that Raheem will do to confuse the offense.
June 2nd, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Most of the dumb asses on this board blasted Eric and I for saying Price was a stupid pick . Now Steve White says it , and everyone agrees.
LOL, ass-kissers….
As far as moving Moore inside to tackle on passing downs…..please, he hasn’t even proven he can edge rush yet , much less provide inside push. This is the stupidest coaching staff of all time, bar none.
June 2nd, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Steve: I appreciate your comments and largely disagree.
I do believe it is too early to tell re: Benn, Lewis and Watson as they all have real questions and as we know many rooks pan out. Being a FSU fan I must say that I did like Watson. But Benn whas productivity questions, Lewis is a tweener (and I recall hearing the same comments re Zemaitis a few years ago) and Watson is small and was more impressive as a pass rusher with his hand in the ground which I believe that he is too small to do at the NFL level.
Those 3 are far from locks to succeed, but believe me I hope they do.
June 2nd, 2010 at 4:13 pm
justin tuck is the only one i can think of but i do gree with you steve 100%. There actually was somethig else i disgreed with, gaines rip would of been bad regardless of switching positions.
June 2nd, 2010 at 4:29 pm
@Thomas
Well the truth is nobody knows how any rookie on any team will work out right now, all the any of us can do is go by what we have seen and make a prediction off that. Benn in my opinion WAS productive at Illinois in an offense that wasn’t very good in the passing game and with an inconsistent QB. He had over 50 catches his first year and over 60 the second. The fact that he only had 38 last year had more to do with factors other than his own ability and he definitely didn’t have many drops. As for Lewis I don’t know whose calling him a tweener but he has pretty much prototypical size for a cover 2 corner these days and he has good speed for the position. He bears no resemblence to Zematis to me so I don’t konw where that comparison comes from. He held up well in the SEC and that’s saying something. I like Watson as a regular linebacker and didn’t really see him as a hand in the ground pass rusher to be honest with you. I think he will be a decent Will LB who may not start for us but should be productive on special teams and fill in when necessary. Along with McCoy, Price and Williams that’s a pretty good draft to me. And it can get better if the punter and the safety work contribute.
June 2nd, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Another great post , Mr.White
Moving the late Gaines Adams around probably cost him some Sacks. As you said, you set tackles up for your moves, switching him around didn’t allow him to do so.
The Bucs so they are really high on Kyle Moore, then why move him away from the tackle he’s been working on all Game. You’re right, never remember ANY NFL team doing that before! Sounds like a rediculous idea for all the lineman involved! Moore, Price/Miller, and McCoy need to master one posistion, get to know the guys they’ll play against year after year, and start learning how to beat them. Flopping them all over the line isn’t gonna help them accomplish any of the above!!
I think we have had two great drafts, but time will tell. But I definately like the type of players we’ve drafted. Seem to be high character, hard working, TEAM players
Radio Mushhead- didn’t see anywhere in that article where he called Price a wasted pick. Again, you’re delusional! If you really hate the team and the Coaching staff that bad, then cowboy and drive to OneBucPlace and tell’em all about it! Don’t hide behind the safety of anonomous post,go get yer moneys worth! Call’em all the names you call them here! I heard they need a new tackling dummy.
Finally, we would have found a use for you!
June 2nd, 2010 at 4:35 pm
@jarrett
Tuck played inside before he was a starter. After he became the starter he stayed outside at end. As for Gaines we will never know how it would have panned out but considering his production with all of the moving around I do believe he would have at least performed better whether he turned into a world beater or not.
June 2nd, 2010 at 4:37 pm
@mushmouth…Not sure people said anyting about Price being a bad pick, they agreed with Steve on the rotation of the LDE to the DT position on 3rd / passing downs. I could be wrong though, that is how I read it.
June 2nd, 2010 at 4:52 pm
I agree too.
I think the 2 BIGGEST Question Marks on this team are:::::: Greg Olson & Todd Wash. It really makes you wonder, WTF?
June 2nd, 2010 at 6:25 pm
watson did rush the passer a lot at fsu, see jimbo’s comments re him recently.
my opinion re benn seems supported by stroud’s comments posted here today.
the bucs havve drafted: zemaitis, biggers, fulton and hamilton in the last 3-4 years – all were sold as prototypical cover 2 corners, none materialized. That is why i have come to reserve juddgment when the org bills somebody as the next ronde or ronde’s successor before they have played.
June 2nd, 2010 at 6:28 pm
The second coming of sapp!we can only hope and pray especially with this coaching staff
June 2nd, 2010 at 6:51 pm
Now Marcus Jones…..at times he flat out trampled people of the way to the QB……bull rush
June 2nd, 2010 at 7:00 pm
@Bucpower
Talented coaching staff?? How is our coaching staff talented at all?? We have a bunch of cheap, low paid, unqualified, no names on our staff. Envy of the league? What are you smoking? How many teams would be begging for Raheem to be their head coach?? Greg Olsen? Hell, even some of the bad teams (Lions, Rams, Seahawks) have pretty good coaches. Pete Carroll and Jim Schwartz are both pretty good hires. Being honest, I can’t think of a head coach in the NFL that’s worse than Raheem. Tom Cable is probably the only one that comes close. Raheem, along with the rest of the coaching staff hasn’t proven anything and didn’t even earn their positions to begin with. Envy of the league? How funny. I’m sure the Redskins and Shanahan envy our staff. Maybe a few of the coaches I just mentioned haven’t proven themselves in the NFL yet, but at least they’ve proven themselves in other things. They’re at least qualified and have a decent resume to show. The highlight of Raheem’s resume: 2 years DB coach.
I’m real excited about the talent we have on our roster heading into next year, but our coaching staff is a joke. It really bothers me that we have players with loads of potential coming here and they’re going to be coached by the people i just mentioned. Raheem is a good DC, but not head coaching material.
June 2nd, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Im not sure i know what White is talking about, but it sure sounds like somebody is screwing up!
June 2nd, 2010 at 7:38 pm
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! LOL! Dave is spot on with his assessment of this story. For those who forgot, it is JUNE. Every team in the league is brainstorming about how to maximize the talent on their rosters. This is all this is. To hang on one sentence from a beat writer in JUNE is laughable. From what I’ve heard from this very site in the past, this is a hybrid defense that employs aspects of 3-4 and cover 2 formations. This is not Kiffin’s D anymore. We are weak at DE and need to be very creative in producing an effective pass rush. Rah and Dom have their jobs on the line this year and will play whoever they think will help the team win. If they are wrong then they will be fired. It’s as simple as that. Let’s at least wait until TC before we go into hysterics!
June 2nd, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Steve do you think it hurt Raheem to be thrust into a head coaching position without being a defensive or offensive coordinator first. He seems like he is a good coach but inexperienced. Seems like throwing a rookie QB into the fire before he is ready. Also good article.
June 2nd, 2010 at 8:05 pm
Let’s read the TBO.com exert again shall we?
“We think he’s going to be fine there,” [Todd] Wash said of [Kyle] Moore, who is slated to play first and second down at left end and move inside to tackle on obvious passing downs. “We’re really excited about him.
“He’s a guy who can really give guards some trouble on third down and give us some pass rush from the left end, because he’s got his explosion back. And what we’re seeing from him there is something we haven’t seen here in a while.”
[Todd] Wash said of [Kyle] Moore, who is slated to play first and second down at left end and move inside to tackle on obvious passing downs….this part isn’t in quotations, meaning Walsh didn’t say it. It’s just fat head Roy Cummings adding in his own nonsense to the article. It means nothing. Show me an actual quote where any member of the Bucs coaching staff says they expect Moore to move inside on a regular basis and then I’ll buy into your argument. Untill then this entire article is 100% hot air all based of a sentence that Roy Cummings threw in the middle of a quote.
June 2nd, 2010 at 8:08 pm
He does say “give gaurds fits”, but I’m still not buying it. I think if we need a 4th DT for the rotation to play on passing downs, Moore might be used before Sims…but I’ll eat crow if we see Moore on the inside consistantly. If there is no injury, Miller, Price, and McCoy will be able to handle the middle just fine.
June 2nd, 2010 at 8:19 pm
sgw94 ,
Price needs to bulk up to be our nose tackle?
Price is 6’1″ 305lbs.
Miller is 6’2″ 310.
McFarland was 6ft 300lbs.
Culpepper was 6’1″ 275lbs.
I think he is just fine.
June 2nd, 2010 at 9:18 pm
@topdoggie
I think obviously that how the hiring of Coach Morris went down last year that he was at somewhat of a disadvantage but I think he made strides as the season went on and now we just have to hope that he carries those lessons learned forward
June 2nd, 2010 at 9:23 pm
@outside1
So just so I understand you, at first when you misread the article and don’t see Wash quoted about Moore rushing inside then it must have just been something made up by Cummings. But then after you notice Wash did in fact reference him rushing inside you still “aren’t buying it”? So why did you bring up whether he said it or not in the first place? You do realize that if it does happen it will only be exactly the same thing they did with Wilkerson last year don’t you?
June 2nd, 2010 at 9:25 pm
@outside1
Price doesn’t have the speed of Booger nor the technique of Culpepper to get away with being less than 320 or so. At least not if he wants to be able to anchor in at the point.
June 2nd, 2010 at 10:40 pm
Whatever anyone thinks, it makes no sense to have drafted these PRice and McCoy and still plan to rush Moore inside. That’s just beyond ridiculous to have your second and third round DTs off the field on third down. I think that’s what STeve White is saying in an nutshell and wheatver you think about the front office, positive or negative, you can’t argue against it. Do we really need this kind of depth?
June 3rd, 2010 at 7:56 am
Yeah, we need this kind of depth. We finished at the bottom in run defense!! That all starts( and hopefully ends) at the DT spot. Hovan was getting old, after a lot of good years. Ryan Sims played Horrible last, and shouldn’t be on an NFL roster!! With the way the Bucs rotate D limeman, you gotta have 3 GOOD Dt’s. De is still a concern. Even if Moore pans out( I think he will), you need depth behind him and White. Hopefully Crowder and Someone else step up. The articles point was, why would you slide Moore inside, put Price and Miller on the side lines, and put someone else at LE?? The alignment that makes sense on 3rd down is – Moore,Price, McCoy, and White!! Anything else puts one of your Best linemen on the sidelines
And that doesn’t make any sense!
June 3rd, 2010 at 8:09 am
@Patrick
“I’m sure the Redskins and Shanahan envy our staff. Maybe a few of the coaches I just mentioned haven’t proven themselves in the NFL yet, but at least they’ve proven themselves in other things. They’re at least qualified and have a decent resume to show. The highlight of Raheem’s resume: 2 years DB coach…”
Ditto! THis is the very reason we will be 4-12 this year!
June 3rd, 2010 at 11:03 am
before we worry about depth, how about we have someone tackle one of the Panthers running backs?
All of bucdom would be delighted to se that!
June 3rd, 2010 at 11:22 am
Hey Thomas congrats on the sweetest dumbass post on this page
the bucs havve drafted: zemaitis, biggers, fulton and hamilton in the last 3-4 years – all were sold as prototypical cover 2 corners, none materialized.
LoL .. Zemaitis was considered a risk after being thrown threw a windshield a year prior to being drafted in a bad accident .. Hamilton was a 7th rounder or undrafted .. Fulton ? ? You talkin about Xavier Fulton ?? the team backup LT .. Hahaaa … He would need to lose some weight .. EJ Biggers was considered to be a cover 2 corner ?? Really .. Last I checked he was considered a prototype Man Corner for Bates scheme.
June 3rd, 2010 at 3:15 pm
Steve
Thanks for writing an article of critique… I for one am not confident at all with this coaching staff… as for the players, I love them. Hopefully it all works out… but it’s real cool that a guy who has been there can talk about details that even some coaches can’t seem to grasp… which makes you question why some guys are even coaches in the NFL to begin with if they have never really played… just sayin.
June 4th, 2010 at 1:27 am
Thanks RahDom I appreciate the compliments.