Raheem Likely Put Brakes On Any Holmes Deal
April 12th, 2010
"Damn, Mike just won't quit texting me about Santonio Holmes. Doesn't he know the Jets got him?"
Joe has been working the phones — more accurately, texts — to those close to the Bucs organization to try to get a feel for why in the world the Bucs didn’t take a gamble on a fifth round pick for pot-loving Santonio Holmes.
Holmes is an elite receiver who has proven to be clutch against some of the toughest defenses in the league during the most crucial of playoff games. Granted, the dude has a well-documented past for smoking left-handed cigarettes, but at least the guy hasn’t been around any shootings (Brandon Marshall) or had to stand in front of a judge in a murder trial (Ray Lewis).
The Bucs have someone on their roster who has done far worse (helmet-wielding, cabbie-loving Aqib Talib) than anything Holmes has done, and also has someone that served a four-game suspension (Tanard Jackson).
Sure, Jackson didn’t test positive, he just forgot to take the test. Feel free to read between the lines on that one.
Yes, Holmes back in 2006 was accused of domestic battery, just like a Bucs free agent safety is accused of (Jermaine Phillips), who is not currently on the Bucs roster.
So Holmes,’ ahem, “baggage” doesn’t fly with Joe. If the Bucs were so concerned about baggage, the aforementioned characters wouldn’t/won’t be on the team.
Joe has learned that Raheem the Dream’s influence on a potential Holmes’trade should not be overlooked. Remember that Raheem the Dream and Steelers coach Mike Tomlin are tight and chat regularly.
It’s not a stretch to consider that Tomlin either talked Raheem the Dream out of any interest in Holmes or, in deference to his friend, Raheem the Dream wasn’t going to take advantage of Tomlin’s misfortune and, by doing so, show up his good friend by dealing for Holmes.
Now trading a second round pick for a troubled guy like Marshall, sure, Joe has to give great pause. But a fifth round pick to a guy who is better than Marshall and more reliable than Marshall who has less brushes with the law? Joe will take that gamble any day.
Joe doesn’t care how deep a draft is, a fifth round pick is still a fifth round pick. You hope the guy just makes the final cut and any productivity is gravy. Joe normally shies away from guys with shady pasts. A fifth round pick is hardly a risk, even on a risky guy.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
My question is, if the Steelers want to get back to smashmouth running offense, why didn’t we send them blocking icon Michael Clayton for Holmes? Surely he’s worth about the same as a fifth-round pick.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
I usually agree with you Joe. And I definitely agree this was a no brainer for the Bucs. But you gotta stop saying Holmes is better than Brandon Marshall. Sure he’s won a superbowl, and had been clutch which can’t be undervalued, but come on. Marshal can put a team on his back. Talent wise Marshall is head and shoulders better.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
“But a fifth round pick to a guy who is better than Marshall and more reliable than Marshall who has less brushes with the law?” – Joebucsfan
I can’t begin to tell you how many inaccuracies are in this statement…
April 12th, 2010 at 12:20 pm
it was reported that they were oing to cut him ,i think they thouht he could be had and not give up a pick.now that makes sense on why the jets got him for a 5th.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Santonio > Marshall is quite a stretch.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
but Joe, Isn’t this the same coach that had to call for permission to make a QB change during a game. I really don’t think that Raheem has the juice to stop a trade.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Marshall or Holmes it doesn’t really matter. If they are not a draftable rookie there is a slim chance they are coming to Tampa. Its stupid but its the Bucs brain trust new way of doing things. As I said before, Peyton Manning could drop out of the sky and Dumnick and Raheem would say he is too old or doesn’t fit their “youth movement.” If those two or someone on the Bucs staff were an ace in the NFL draft I would say great but we know better and know they are going to screw up the Bucs even more than they already have. You would think the Glazers are not so stupid but I guess papa Glazer was the one with the business sense.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Yes and Joe I concur to say Santonio Holmes is better than Brandon Marshall is more than a stretch. If you put their statistics next to each other they are not even on the same planet.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
I agree with the rest of you thus far, Holmes better than Marshall? No way. That begs a question on what Joe’s smoking in addition to his well documented love for Caybrews and the like.
April 12th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Chris from NJ
Come on Chris, put his team on his back to where? He’s never been in a playoff game; never been on a winner.
Where was that back of Marshall’s last year when the team needed one win for a playoff berth? That same back had street clothes on because he was suspended for being an idiot.
Holmes was the best receiver on one of the NFL’s best teams. He stretched the field. He was/is clutch. Look at the numbers he put up the last three years against the NFL’s best defense, Baltimore. He ripped them apart. Holmes not only knows how to get open, he does so against the best defenses in the NFL.
Rex Ryan even said — before the trade — Holmes was the most dangerous wide receiver he had to defend against.
Holmes’ posse never got into gunfights like Marshall’s has. Holmes’ problem is he can’t put down the bong.
Marshall is a good, perhaps very good receiver on an average team. Holmes is an elite receiver on a Super Bowl winner.
April 12th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
I know the reasoning behind this trade not going through. Joe hit on I a little bit. Rah didn’t want to show up his friend and…..FUTURE EMPLOYER!!!! See, Rah knows that his ass is grass sooner rather than later and is hoping to be brought on by the Steelers to coach with his buddy after his time is done in Tampa. Can’t blame the guy…he is planning ahead which shows he is smart.
This is ridiculous to know that we turned down a player of his caliber when it is arguably the biggest hole on the team.
Blacked out games?!?!? Who cares?!?! You mean to tell me I’m not going to be able to watch Clayton drop more passes? Or Stovall not living up to his potential? Oh whatever shall I do?
My biggest regret will be missing Rah’s mid air arm lock with the players. Now that is truly inspiring.
April 12th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
If you put their statistics next to each other they are not even on the same planet.
True. Holmes’ numbers are better.
April 12th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
The Glazers would have put a stop to it anyway…
They dont want any player that they are going to have pay any serious money to for the next several years.
April 12th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
LOL!!!
Interesting point: Rah takes over for Dick LeBeau when he retires.
April 12th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
Holmes is in the last year of his contract and is facing a 4 game suspension by the league. You potentially only get him for 3/4s of a season and also risk him doing some other knucklehead maneuver to end up suspended again.
Risk verses reward as always. Who really knows? I guess we will see.
April 12th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
Brandon Marshall called. He wants an apology.
How do you figure that Santonio is even in the same conversation as Marshall?
I’m curious to hear who you think are the top 5 wrs in the league.
Cuz clearly you would include Santonio there, somewhere he definitely doesn’t belong.
April 12th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
I would absolutely love to see the Bucs take either McCoy or Suh in the first and then back to back WRs in the second to upgrade a consistently poor WR corp. Demaryous Thomas and Arrelius Benn both in the second would be outstanding. Then go back to defense after.
Give Freeman, Stroughter, Thomas and Benn the chance to mature as a cohesive unit together.
April 12th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Raheem and Clayton are best buds. Remember how he challenged the media on Clayton’s behalf after the Dallas game last year?
So, if the Dream did nix the trade. which i would have thought was Dom’s decision anyhow, it may be to protect his friend.
I am also not expecting the bucs to go wideout in round two. They will wait until later in the draft, thinking they can get another Stroughter, and once again make sure Clayton is on this roster.
I just don’t think they view wide-out as a big need and are prepared to go with what they have. Hard to comprehend, but I would not be shocked.
April 12th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Tell Marshall football fans in Denver want an apology for him being in street clothes when the team needed a win.
Elite receivers don’t get suspended for insubordination in a playoff drive.
April 12th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
[QUOTE] Elite receivers don’t get suspended for insubordination in a playoff drive. [\QUOTE]
That’s maturity, not talent.
April 12th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Not sure what world that you are comparing statistics Joe unless you live in some bizarro world but last time I checked
6’4″ > 5’11”
327 career recepts> 235
25 career tds > 20
4019 career yds> 3835
101 recepts last year > 79
10 TDs last year > 5
and the list goes on and on.
Rothlesberger>Orton and Cutler
The only stats I can find where Holmes is better would be yds per catch and yds last season and less career fumbles (fumbles was pretty significant as Marshall has twice as many as Holmes)
April 12th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Joe- Please leave the pot smoking to Holmes. How can you say Holmes stats are better. For comparisons sake Marshall has had three straight seasons with 100+ receptions and 1,000+receiving yards including this past season in which he caught 10 touchdowns. O yeah and that was in 13 games started. Holmes on the other hand has never had a season with 100+ receptions (season-high this past season with 79, next highest is 55) and only one year with 1,000+ receiving yards (again this year 1,248). He’s also never caught 10 TD passes in a season. In 2007 and 2008 he combined for 107 catches. Marshall had 104 in 2008 alone. BTW, can I be in your fantasy league in which you take Holmes in the first leaving marshall for the rest of us.
April 12th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
Tada! Those are the numbers Joe looks for in a receiver.
Joe doesn’t know what to tell you guys. Joe has seen Holmes light up playoff teams, stretching the field often, and is the No.1 receiver on Super Bowl winner. Holmes also torched the best defense in the league (Baltimore) not once, but multiple times (as in last seven games against the Ravens). That’s not an accident. That’s elite to Joe. Rex Ryan even said as much — before the trade.
Joe sees this Marshall character dodge bullets in a gunfight, resulting from trash Marshall’s posse started, get suspended for insubordination when his teams needed him the most, is a very good receiver on a team that has never posted a winning record while he is on the roster.
Joe will take Holmes over Marshall, to quote Warren Sapp, every day including Sundays.
April 12th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
Joe is right. Holmes has ben there and Marshall got benched because he is a moron when the team needed him most. Holmes had an MVP Super Bowl winning catch… Marshal got his friend killed talking smack to gang bangers… yes, Marshal was the one running his mouth.
Either way, we didn’t trade a 5th for him… our 5th is > than the Jets… so it makes no sense… I bet Glazers/Dominick’s greedy a$$es were trying to trade a 6th or a 7th for him… DUMMIES!!!
April 12th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
[quote]If you put their statistics next to each other they are not even on the same planet.
True. Holmes’ numbers are better.[\quote]
FYI Joe: Both Holmes and Marshall entered the league the same year. Holmes has played in 60 games, Marshall 61.
Holmes: 235 catches, 3,835 yds, 20 TD
Marshall: 327 catches, 4,019 yds, 25 TD
So, after four years in the league, Marshall has 92 more catches. Thats a PRO BOWL SEASONS WORTH OF CATCHES more.
If you throw out their rookie seasons and just take the last 3, this is what it looks like:
Holmes: 186 catches, 3011 yds, 18 TD
Marshall: 307 catches, 3710 yds, 23 TD
While I don’t disagree the Bucs should have pulled the trigger on Holmes, suggesting that Holmes is on the same level as Marshall, let alone BETTER than Marshall, makes me think you’re smoking left-handed cigarettes with Holmes (and much like Trent Dilfer and Colt McCoy, may be on Holmes payroll).
April 12th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
Look, Joe is thinking playoffs…. just like the Glazers were when they fired Gruden and Allen in such a genius move, only a few years after trading all their draft picks for Jon.
April 12th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
9-7 isn’t good enough. We want Super Bowls…. as if Jon Gruden was trying to JUST go 9-7… as if Jon purposely lost his final 4 games to GO 9-7.
9-7 isn’t good enough, so hire Raheem Morris and Mark Dominick to rebuild the team?????????????????????????
Lets all be totally honest and transparent, Gruden cussed out the Glazer boys and THEN was fired.
April 12th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
“Tell Marshall football fans in Denver want an apology for him being in street clothes when the team needed a win.
Elite receivers don’t get suspended for insubordination in a playoff drive.”
Um being suspended has nothing to do with talent. If Andre Johnson or Larry Fitz were to murder somebody today, they wouldn’t be referred to as “not-elite”. According to your logic, would you then call AJ or Fitz worse than Santonio Holmes?
April 12th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
BRB:
Joe doesn’t give the damn if Marshall is the second coming of Jerry Rice. How valuable was he wearing street clothes? Elite players answer the bell.
You guys are firing at Joe don’t seem to understand. Holmes produces. Marshall is nothing more than a fantasy football stud, a wide receiver version of Marc Bulger, only Bulger never had to dodge bullets in a gunfight.
Look, Rex Ryan — former defensive coordinator of the Ravens — said Holmes was the most dangerous receiver he had to defend. These are not Joe’s words.
Joe’s guessing Ryan doesn’t play fantasy football though. 🙁
April 12th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
“Joe doesn’t give the damn if Marshall is the second coming of Jerry Rice. How valuable was he wearing street clothes? Elite players answer the bell. ” – Joe
So, by your definition, Marshall will be considered to have a superior 2010 campaign, than Holmes, since Holmes will inevitably miss the first four games of the season.
April 12th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
DH:
Joe will have to wait to see how the two perform in the playoffs. 🙂 Fortunately for Holmes (and the Jets) it’s the first four games of the 2010 season, not the last four games.
April 12th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Marshall v. Holmes is a good argument. Id take Holmes cause he showed up and won them the big game. Plus the price is lower so much less risk involved than coughing up a number two.
However, the bucs look at Holmes v. Marshall and apparently say “neither”.
The gap between Holmes and Marshall is small, but its HUGE between either one and the bucs best receiver.
When is everyone going to wake up and see these arent football decisions, but financial decisions?
April 12th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
First of all, I agree with you 100% that we should have looked really hard at making this trade, and I for one wish we would have. However, you are really reaching on a few things. First of all, saying he is better than Brandon Marshall, even comparable, is absolutely insane. Obviously you haven’t seen Marshall play very much, he is an absolute stud. He is the complete package, and he is very consistent. Santonio had a great playoff run, and a very good year last year, but he is nowhere near the talent of Marshall. What exactly are you basing your stats off of, last year? He started the season in the dog house, and ended it there too. He caught more passes, doubled Holmes in TD’s, and he had Kyle Orton as his QB (are you going to say that he is better than Horny Ben?). It’s just ridiculous, and if it were anywhere near true then Holmes would have been had for better than a 5th round pick. Do you think Marshall will be had for a 5th rounder? That tells you all you need to know, even though Holmes is a much better person than Marshall, right?
I really think you are dead wrong on saying Talib has done much worse than Holmes. I don’t know your beliefs, but I believe assaulting your baby’s mama is worse than punching a cab driver and swinging a helmet at a teammate. Also, there’s a big difference between it happening AFTER you draft a player with a high pick (Talib), and knowingly bringing in a player who has already committed a crime (who has a history of off the field problems). Jermaine Phillips had a similar (isolated) issue, and even if he is on the roster now, I doubt he will be. Again, I believe we probably should have pulled the trigger on this deal, but you are reaching too much on your reasons why.
April 12th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
heheheh..Joe got busted on the stat’s…Joe got busted on the stats.
But seriously folks Marshall has the better #’s but they want a Round 2 pick vs. a round 5 pick for holmes.
Personally I’d take either over Clayton.
April 12th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
Joe you should have not used stats and compared pothead holmes to cry-baby Marshall.
Then compared them to cabbie punching Talib
April 12th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
@Hawaiian Buc
“knowingly bringing in a player who has already committed a crime”
What crime did he commit and how do you know he assaulted his baby’s momma?
Are you relying on the witness who later dropped the charge? Were you there? have you heard his side of that story?
Im really troubled by how people convert allegations into reality.
April 12th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
I’m with Lucky. Either deal should’ve been done long ago. And Joe got busted on the stats.
April 12th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
@Eric
First of all, committing a crime and being convicted of a crime are two entirely different things. He was also arrested on disorderly conduct. He has also been suspended for drugs, so I think we can make the assumption he’s not a stand-up guy. If he was not the person he is off the field, he would not have been dumped by the Steelers for a cheeseburger and fries. Besides, my point was to say that Talib is not worse than him, like Joe said. I’d be happy if we did get him, but I can’t blame the organization for not.
April 12th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
:::wonders why his earlier post was disallowed:::
April 12th, 2010 at 6:17 pm
@Hawaiian Buc
Failing the drug policy of the NFL is a red flag to be considered.
But the Disorderly conduct and Domestic violence chages were dropped, which means they were never established as true in court. I think considering them against his character is unfair.
Same thing applies IMO to the Steelers QB concerning the rape allegations.
April 12th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
How much worse can it get for Bucs fans? Seriously!!! WE COULDN’T GIVE UP A DAMN FIFTH ROUND PICK?!!!??? Yeah maybe he did have some off the field issues. But a fifth round pick for Holmes is a great deal no matter what the circumstances are!
April 12th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
Id rather have a guy with some off the field issues than a guy with clearly demonstrated ON the field issues, like the inability to catch when your a receiver!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Geez.
April 12th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
@Eric
[Gulp] Wadda youse talkin ’bout? [Gulp, gulp]
Da Bucs dont need no Holmes [gulp, gulp]
We got the best blocking WR in the league. [gulp, gulp]
Holmes would have just hindered the great team chemistry [gulp, gulp]
Besides with all the hard work Freeman has done with Van de kamp I bet Freeman will be able to toss the ball into every nook and cranny out there [gulp]
Man this kool-aid is REALLY good – or maybe it’s the Grey Goose in the kool-aid.