Raheem The Dream Haters Need To Look Away
February 15th, 2010
Some pundits snicker at the sinking approval ratings for Obama.
While those approval ratings may not be very good, they pale in comparison to the approval rating many Bucs fans have for Raheem the Dream.
Last year, the Bucs had their worst season since wearing the creamsicles full-time. And fans vented their frustration at rookie head coach Raheem the Dream.
So vile were some of the fans’ comments about Raheem the Dream, they took to blogs, message boards and even sports radio, derogatorily referring to him after a sympathetic lead character in a popular football movie.
Leave it to an intelligent man like Steve White to explain why Raheem the Dream isn’t nearly as bad as some fans would suggest.
White, a former Bucs defensive lineman, who is the proprietor of the blog “Passing on the Game,” and who Joe is humbled to have write a weekly “Bull Rush” column for him, points out that the Bucs were close to being average.
The Bucs were abysmal last year and nobody could deny that, but did you know that they lost 4 games by 7 points or less? In fact did you know that if you added up all the points they lost by in those 4 games you would only come up with 15 points, basically an average of a little over a field goal?
I’m sure you probably wouldn’t because nobody really talks about that. They are too busy trying to convince you that Coach Raheem Morris is “in over his head.”
Imagine what the Bucs would have been had Raheem the Dream also been the defensive coordinator from Week 1?
February 15th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
I don’t buy that crap for one second…not one.
It doesn’t matter that the Bucs lost a few games by a field goal or when they lost by over 20 points. THEY LOST.
This isn’t pee wee league where everyone gets a trophy for a “good try”. This is the NFL.
In those games in which it was close the Bucs lost because Rah went for a field goal instead of the TD, or after kicking 3 field goals then decides to go for it on 4th and 3.
Or what about the game in which the Bucs went for it on 4th down and didn’t make it – only to get a 2nd try because of a time out and with our franchise QB only having to pick up 1 yard decided to have him roll out, naked, for an attempted pass – incomplete.
Are we forgetting about the “smart” decision to fire your OC the week before the season?
There were numerous examples of how Rah was in over his head. He should NEVER have been the Bucs HC but should have remained as the DC for awhile.
February 15th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
I’m more upset with the owners. They are the morons who got the Bucs in the position to start with. To save money they promoted Morris knowing he didn’t have the experience to be head coach. Ultimately, I think Morris will be a good HC, but there have been alot of growing pains (coordinator debacles, QB competition, game decisions, etc). I’m hoping the worst of it is over.
The real problem going forward is that ownership is doing little to help Morris & Co succeed. I don’t see how they can win in 2010 and as a result Morris will probably not survive. It’s a shame because Morris was thrown into a no-win situation and he deserved better than that.
February 15th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Louie,
I have to admit that after thinking longer abot this I agree with you. I don’t dislike Morris personally. I just think that he’s in over his head. Morris didn’t “ask to be the HC” but I dont’ blame him for taking the job – who wouldn’t?
You hit the nail on the head – the problem is going forward and I don’t see much of a change in 2010.
February 15th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
If we had been running Raheem’s D from Day 1, we would have gone 6-10, maybe 7-9.
Last year was horrible, but I think we’re in a position to be a .500 team next year.
It all depends on Freeman.
February 15th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Well the schedule is easier, the Dream will be at the defensive helm from day one, so can we agree no excuses apply to next year for Coach Morris?
Or is the mantra for the Bucs gonna be “we only lost by seven points”, “we only lost by seven points”
Funny, the Bucs lost by seven points or less FIVE times in Gruden’s last year, which would have equated to a 14-2 record under this same convoluted logic. But, of course, the Dream is just soooooooooooo much better.
February 15th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Eric no one is saying Rah is “sooooooo much better” than Gruden. He’s just less of a liar an displays less of his ego. What most of us are saying is he isn’t being helped by owners who are being frugal with the money invested in players, coaches, and front office personnel.
Gruden’s gone. It’s time you move on too.
February 15th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
@Eric
Did you call for Gruden’s head when we went 5-11 and still had Brooks, Simeon, Ronde, Quarles and others on Defense? Oh and remember he used 3 quarterbacks that year too?
What about when we went 4-12 two years later?
I know Gruden won the Superbowl for us and I salute him for that, but how many other coaches have those kinds of seasons with the same team after winning a championship?
I don’t know that anybody has compared Raheem to Gruden at all, but there is evidence that Gruden himself hasn’t always done great coaching jobs, no? Or do you just ASSume that Gruden would have definitely done better with no factual basis to back it up? Hell if you are saying that its an endorsement of Coach Morris honestly, or did you forget that he was going to be the defensive coordinator under Gruden? Lets not forget that Gruden didn’t have our offense rated near the top of the league EVER since he has been here.
Its funny, I thought fans actually supported their team and pulled for them to do better. Silly me.
February 15th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
yeah like if i’m just $7 dollars short for my mortage payment everymonth the finance company is going to say… aww it’s ok we don’t care… they LOST!
February 15th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
I agree Matt. You have to give this guy a few years. So he had a bad season ok, well did you know Gruden had a couple similar seasons after stealing that ring from Dungy(4-11,5-10)? Every coach is going to have a bad year here or there, especially when the team is in transition. Who knows, if we pick up the right people the Bucs may do even better than 500, it is impossible to tell right now.
February 15th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
Oh we have moved on all right, straight to loserville. I only pointed out Gruden’s last year, and the margin of defeat in close games, to point out the double standard. Wasn’t he operating under the same “restrictions” and “frugality” you are using as excuses for Mr. Morris?
Plus, the Dream continually stated we were not in a rebuilding year last season? That was truthful?
I agree with you that the owners have no committment to winning and the scouting department sucks………….so why sugar coat last season with this “close games” crap?
February 15th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
@SGW,
Steve, it seems like you’ve had enough with the Raheem bashing, everyday of it. I like your take, I also like the fact you support your views with evidence instead of some of the stuff we read by fans. I would appreciate more, within your limits of course, of putting some of these fans in their place. Just like you did above. They need someone with your experience telling them.
February 15th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Eric, would you have felt better if he did say “we are rebuilding, we will suck out loud, just so there is no confusion”. Yeah, that would have made it a lot better. How would his players felt about that?
February 15th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
I don’t think you guys see the point. I don’t feel he is saying forgive those losses cause they were soo close in scoring. He is pointing out that the bucs had one of the hardest schedules this year against very good teams. If Raheem was sooo bad.. if this team and coach was sooooo bad then why were they not RAIL ROADED in those games? The scores were close cause OUR BUCS were better then what they appeared and the only thing holding them down at times were rookie mistakes by players and by coaches..
I can only specify a few games where the opposing team destroyed us. One of those teams was undefeated and on the second time playing them (at their stadium too) they fell to the bucs. Oh yes and this team is the superbowl champs this year. was it a bad day for them? dunno but I know this they were not injured maybe not 100% across the board but not injured, and didn’t sit anyone. Was a needed win to gain home field advantage as well.
so overall if the coach is sooooo bad and the team was sooo bad then why were they not destroyed this year. Yes losing by 1 point and losing by 50 is still losing. But losing by 1 point shows that you gave it your all and the game MIGHT have been able to go in a different direction. Unlike the losing by 50.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Well I suppose the game of football is beyond the comprehension of us mere mortals, who didnt play in the NFL.
However, since statistics are the basis of this “Raheem is great” rant, lets compare 2008 and 2009.
2008 Bucs offense 14th, Defense 9th
2009 Bucs offense 28th Defense 27th
Somehow, in Mr. White’s world this means Raheem did a good job and the team is improving.
Dont piss on my leg and tell me it is raining…………………..
February 15th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
According to those standards, Jon Gruden ‘could’ have had several 16-0 seasons as his team hardly ever got beat by more than 7… to inlcude deepr runs into the play-offs.
Come on, give me break with this crap.
Steve, wake up dude. Tampa was last in nearly EVERY category against the run. They gave up a league high of nearly 5 yds per carry, the most rushing yds in the NFL and was last in another category that I can’t think of off the top of my head… this isn’t even worth finding the other LAST in the NFL category for that matter.
You want Eric Berry, and claim our defensive line is just fine… well you might have been part of the same group that said 9-7 and 1 and done in the playoffs isn’t exceptable either. Now look where we are at. Dead last in stopping the run = at the bottom of the entire NFL.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Nick
“Eric, would you have felt better if he did say “we are rebuilding, we will suck out loud, just so there is no confusion”. Yeah, that would have made it a lot better. How would his players felt about that?”
Well said and quite funny.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
A lot of the running issues had to due with the 2-gap system Bates was running with undersized tackles. If you look at the last four games of the season, our entire defense improved. It just goes to show that scheme matching the players is important.
Dominik and Morris made rookie mistakes in hiring Jags and Bates. But hell, it’s their first year. Promoted by owners way ahead of their time. This year will be better, if only because young players have had a chance to grow.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Eric, you seem to follow the Gruden mindset. Always thinking about the current year. Ya, last year sucked. However, we were rebuilding. We had young players replace pro bowl quality veterans. Not because they were better now, but because they’d be better in 2011 or maybe in 2010. You’ve got to think more than a year ahead unless you’ve got a team on the cusp of a super bowl push.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
Joe,
When we went into the season with a rookie QB, no one thought we were going to have a winning season. Lets build on that, get some great draft picks and move on. We are 9-7 next season…
Quick question…..if the Steve Deumig crowd thinks that Gruden won the Super Bowl with Dungy’s team, then it is logical to say that Caldwell lost the Super Bowl with Dungy’s team..cant have it both ways. Gruden won the Super Bowl.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
Ok Charlie, so it looks like were gonna suck again next year, but maybe not as badly, then in 2011 it all falls in place………………..well see how that plan works out for you. I can’t wait to pay big money watching the Tampa Bay Developmental Squad.
Ill have to agree, I do have Gruden’s mindset. Guilty as charged. I kinda prefer contending.
February 15th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
BucFan South Tampa:
Joe has gone on record several times that Chucky did not win with Father Dungy’s players. It’s an absurd premise.
February 15th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
I’m of the opinion that you can rebuild without going 3-13. I’m sorry 3-13 is unacceptable.
February 15th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
@Eric
At this point its apparent you’re a dumbass so I won’t spend much more time with you. I will say this though, if you check my record I have criticized Coach Morris on substance more than anybody else in this area. You can go to my blog or go to my Bull Rush posts here and its all laid out for you. When every other pundit was saying we sucked against the run I was pointing out WHY we sucked against the run. I don’t begrudge you your opinion, hell we all have em just like assholes. But here is my thing, you are basically banking on the Bucs sucking next year. I don’t know many actual fans who do that. I know you will probably give that weaksauce “Well I hope I’m wrong” bullshit, but I don’t know very many people who are sincere when they say that. Am I and everybody else to believe that after talking shit all off season about how bad the Bucs will be that you are going to be pulling hard for them come next September in hopes that you have to come back to this same blog and Im sure others and eat crow?
Sorry, not buying it.
I picked the Bucs to lose most of the games they lost this year and I also picked them to lose at least one game that they won. But you know what? When those games came on there wasn’t anybody pulling harder or more frustrated after the losses than I was. And its not just cuz I played there. Im the same way with the team I grew up being a fan of, the Dallas Cowboys. Hell I picked them to lose to the Vikings and pretty much spelled out exactly what ended up happening. But once the ball was kicked off I was 100% behind them regardless.
Again I guess my view of what a fan is might be a lot different from what others are at this point. So be it.
February 15th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
B From O Town
You are basically talking out your ass and anybody who has visited this site more than once knows it. Feel free to keep spouting your ass hatery but I won’t be engaging someone who can’t get even the most basic facts about what I have said, repeatedly, right.
Have fun with that.
February 15th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
By the way, let me reference the very first line of the exerpt from my blog that Joe put up again since evidently some folks have problems with reading comprehension.
The Bucs were abysmal last year and nobody could deny that,
February 15th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Steve,
Ill be the first one back to eat crow. I assume you will also should the future prove my position correct, and your’s wrong?
Or maybe you believe you are above being proven wrong by a mere “dumbass” fan?
My opinion on Mr. Morris is based upon my passion for the Bucs to do well, not poorly. IMO the only way that will happen is to eventually fire him and the GM, which should have already been done. I simply am unwilling to sit back, as you seem to be, and allow this ownership to perpetrate this fraud and farce on the good fans of Tampa Bay, who deserve better for their hard earned $. This community paid for a big fancy stadium for these chumps(under threat to move the team), who are putting up, to use your term, a very “weak ass” effort at a competitive team.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:10 pm
What?
You wrote the worst article of your career today trying to shove your Raheem agenda down everyone’s throat based on what? Margin of loss? Again, go look at Gruden’s losses… almost all of them were within 7.
Another fact I stated: Tampa was last in the NFL in Rushing YPG 4.8, Last in the NFL in rushing yads surrendered and (I dug it up for you) last in attempts surrendered 529 AND I almost forgot, last in yds surrendered per game 158.2. That’s 4 last place categories in the ENTIRE NFL.
And the excuse is… that’s right Jim Bates.
Well the last 6 games the Bucs went 2-4, played against 3 back up QBs in a row, got tourched on the ground by the Jets and the Falcons (Carolina also ran for 158 had a 120 yd rusher) and since you like to play ifs and buts, if the Barth makes the FG at the end of the game, Tampa loses that one too.
The only thing you have going for you is that Tampa has an easier schedule next year. My question for you… when will Tampa contend for the playoffs again? Because based on the current regime’s track record, THERE IS NO PLAN!
(btw, I like your Bull Rush articles, but i won’t stand for this non-sense)
February 15th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
@Eric
Here is the funny thing. I haven’t made any predictions about the Bucs season yet. I actually want to have more, you know, evidence of what the team will look lilke before I do so. We still have free agency, the draft and off season workouts to go through before any body could possibly have a reasonable viewpoint on how good or bad the team will be. Its you that are making predictions based on…nothing as far as I can tell, not me. But understand this, Im very easily found. I have never ducked out when I was wrong on this blog and I never will, same with my own blog.
Your unwillingness to actually let the moves play themselves out don’t prove your fandom to me. It proves that you are reactionary. I don’t know of many reasonable people who looked at our talent and injuries before the first game last year and thought we would do much better than what we ended up as, regardless of coaching. But before we have signed one player, or not signed them, and before we have drafted one player, or not drafted them, you have deeemed a season months and months away a failure. And yes that makes you a dumbass in my book.
It is what it is.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:21 pm
@B From O Town
Again, reading is fundamental. I don’t really care what you will or won’t stand for, your comment was straight bullshit. You attributed quotes to me that I have never ever said. You attributed thoughts to me that I have never expressed. When you can point out to me where I ever said:
1. Our defensive line is “just fine”.
2. 9-7 and 1 and done isn’t acceptable.
3. Where I brought up Jon Gruden FIRST when he had nothing to do with my blog post.
4. When I said the defense was great.
Then maybe we can talk
Otherwise find someone else to shovel your bullshit at because I’m not your guy. Making up shit doesn’t help you in an argument with me, it just makes you look damn silly.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
BUC FAN SOUTH TAMPA
JOE
Yeah Gruden did win the superbowl thats right, with the team Dungy built. Just like Caldwell lost the superbowl this year, with the team Dungy built. The Colts, that was Dungy’s team out there. Just like he built our team before 2002. No one said he can “have it both ways”. Watch this upcoming year the Colts will be a half-good, half-bad team, and the year after they will suck. Mark my words down on paper.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
The superbowl was just played. How can people be predicting what kind of team we will be next year? The draft hasn’t happened, OTA’s havent happened, preseason hasn’t happened. We wont know what kind of team we have until week 1, then we will have a slight idea. Ev erybody thinks we suck already, for all you know we could be the Bengals of 2010. Its just to early to tell.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Alright Steve, Fair enough. It is a bit early for predictions. I think our opinions are different because you blame last year on simply lack of talent, and injuries, or the youth movement. (I hope I summarized that accurately). I believe it was due to coaching and personnel decisons made last year. I will be interested in your predictions as the season approaches as well as your draft analysis.
“Dumbass”
February 15th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
@Eric
To correct you, I think it was all of the above. I know we didn’t have the talent to contend in the division let alone do well with the schedule we had. And some of that is due to personnell decisions. Ididn’t agree with cutting our kicker Matt Bryant and I also thought we should have kept McCown over Leftwich among other things. The coaching was also a factor and even though we haven’t talked about it that includes the offensive staff as well. And while on defense I definitely give Jim Bates a ton of responsibility for how bad we sucked, Coach Morris wasn’t exactly perfect when he took over the defense either. And again if you go to my blog you will see me criticizing some of the crucial decisions he made like calling the timeout at the end of the game against the Falcons then running the exact same defense as what he had shown before the timeout. I think injuries were also a major factor as I think Jermaine Phillips is a major upgrade over Sabby Piscitelli although and I also think having to play rookies at corner who we signed off other folks practice squad was not the best way to be successful. Antonio Bryant’s knee injury also severely handcuffed us most of the year in my opinion. As a matter of fact Im highly concerned about Geno Hayes’ injury because he is a guy who needs all the reps he can get. As man splash plays as he made last year, he killed us at times on regular every day play by either free lancing or not knowing what to do. If we are going to have success he is going to have to have a more consistent year next year.
See its not all black and white. Just because I don’t think Coach Morris is “in over his head” or is the only reason we lost, doesn’t mean I think its going to be sunshine and blue skies next year. I did see improvement at the end of the year and I don’t happen to believe that we will screw up our personel as bad this off season as we did last. But I have been wrong before so I reserve judgement. That is really the main difference. I see what we could be next season, while other folks are focused on what they perceive we were this year. I don’t have a vested interest in whether Coach Morris stays or goes and while I hope he does well because that means our team will be doing well, if he doesn’t I’ll be one of the first to say so. That’s who I am and that’s what I do. I pull for the Bucs when they do things I don’t like and I pull for them when they do things I do like. Period.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
For the record, I think 9-7 and 1 and done sucks a fat one. Especially when we had a 40 year old QB and nothing to look forward to as far as a young, developing team. I always said I would suffer through some tough years with some hope this team can put a 10 year run together.
February 15th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
LMAO!!! You fans crack me up!!!! WTF is wrong with you??? Oh my god you spend money at the game and that means the Glazers owe you something? Were a few years removed from a super bowl team and its all their fault huh? Did’nt they own this team then?
I have never heard more whining and bitching than here in florida. Sad thing is half of you losers are’nt even from here!!!!!! Just one year It would be nice to see this city actually stand behind our team no matter what? With these kind of fans Tampa WILL be just like Jacksonville before too long, a decent team with sorry ass fans and on the verge of the team movin gto another city! Wake up people we are lucky to have our own team here. Atleast for a few more years………
February 15th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Marc:
Here’s some homework for you. Tell Joe who the Bucs coach was when these 2002 starters and key players were acquired:
John Lynch
Warren Sapp
Derrick Brooks
Keenan McCardell
Michael Pittman
Ken Dilger
Joe Jurevicius
Ricky Dudley
Tom Tupa
Kerry Jenkins
Roman Oben
February 15th, 2010 at 6:24 pm
Lets see, let me take a stab. Marc probably can’t read. The first three Sam Wyche, and the rest Mr. John Gruden?
Wow, and I thought it was Dungy’s team.
Did you forget the A – Train?
February 15th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
@Eric
Dungy drafted A train.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
Eric:
Mike Alstott was drafted in Father Dungy’s first year with the Bucs, 1996.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
I thought it was Wyche, are you sure?
February 15th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
Steve, great points as always man. Keep up the good work both in articles and comments.
Eric: Dude, do you realize who you are blaming for the losses? Raheem was a rookie and Dominik was a rookie, who hired them? Glazers. For every new rookie coach hired in the league, there is an experienced GM, President (Polian, Parcells) or an owner that commits himself to football. So don’t blame wrong people to begin with.
Clearly firing the OC and DC in the same season was a foolish move, but it was also a bold move. It shows that Raheem and Morris grew professionally as the season went on, realized their mistakes and took necessary actions to correct them KNOWING they would be laughing stock among media and fans. They could have just held on to veterans and have us win 7 or 8 games and satisfy you, but they had the guts to purge the veterans and rebuild, something Gruden never did in his eight year tenure despite having job security.
Ultimately things worked out (defensively for sure) and that is all matters.
They have drafted a franchise QB who looks like one for the first time in Buccaneers history, drafted Miller, Moore and Stroughter who have shown more promise for rookies than players drafted at their positions usually do.
I don’t see a reason to be pessimistic about next season at all, this is how rebuilding is done and I am happy we have a players coach that can get everyone rolling on all cylinders.
Bottom line is, players wanted to give their 100% for Morris, they never wanted to do that for Gruden. Morris could turn out to be worse than Gruden, I certainly hope not, but I am happy Gruden was fired.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Eric:
Mike Alstott’s rookie year was 1996.
http://sandbox.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlstMi00.htm
February 15th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
whoops i stand corrected, Dungy was responsible for the A-Train.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
@Eric
Yes, we came in together although I was initially drafted by Philly. I take Joe’s point and it wasn’t Dungy’s team that won the Superbowl but there is no doubt that he left behind some horses too. Just sayin.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Gruden brought in 26 (including Jeramine Phillips) new players to that SuperBowl team, more than half the roster. Some didn’t start, but most did. Now whose team was it?
February 15th, 2010 at 6:35 pm
More than half of the playing roster, sorry.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
@OAR, on which side of the ball specifically? I am sure some dinosaurs did come to Tampa, I am quite sure it was mostly on offensive side though, yet what did offense do? Barely outscore opposition’s offense that faced league’s best defense.
Anyways, Gruden was certainly one of the key factors responsible for Bucs SB victory, but he could have been fired next season and still Bucs would have the same playoff record at worst at this point.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:51 pm
I just can’t understand why Jon Gruden gets such a bad rap in this town. Super Bowl winner, plus a couple of division titles after. No, they didnt advance in the playoffs, but the games against the Skins and Giants were close, if you remember that non-catch in the endzone in the Skins game in particular. Plus, they were within an eyelash of playoffs in 08. What did Gruden do? Sleep with everyone’s wives or something? Geez give the man a little credit. His tenure was a hell of a lot better than most coaches we have had (and ill say Dungy was just as good and did an outstanding job of turning the team around when they had sucked for many, many years).
February 15th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
@Jonny: “Morris could turn out to be worse than Gruden…”
What????? Morris is worse than Gruden are kidding? Morris has 3 wins. Gruden has 60, 3 division titles, 1 NFC Title and 1 Super Bowl. No other coach has done that with Tampa… not even the Great Dungy.
Dungy got all his playoff wins with Peyton Manning at the helm. Dungy even said himself, “Peyton Manning would make ANY coach look good.”
And I fully recognize Tony Dungy as the first good and successful coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. (I think he should run for president… he’d be much better than Obama, and far less polarized.) But lets not forget Dungy couldn’t beat Philly and couldn’t pick a good OC with Tampa.
Facts are facts.
February 15th, 2010 at 6:55 pm
@OAR
Not saying you’re wrong but Id like to see your source on that. I ask because Im counting and literally all of the starters on defense were already there as were most of their backups and the roster is made up of only 53 guys. You factor in Brad Johnson, A train, Christy, Key, aaron stecker, Cook, King, Yoder, Walker, and Karl the Truth on offense and Im trying to find those 26. Again, not saying you’re wrong, just wanna see the source.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
Steve,
Did you play in the NFC Championship Game against the Rams? What was the name of the receiver who let the ball slip through when the Bucs were driving for the winning score? He caught the ball, hit the ground and it came out. I think the refs reviewed it on replay. Might never have been a Coach Gruden in Tampa if that play had been different, assuming the offense could have punched it in after. Amazing how things work out.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
@Eric
That was Bert Emmanuel and the ball actually didn’t come all the way out, it just moved. Should have been a catch and they changed the rule after that. To answer your first question yeah I started in that game.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Wow, I have always thought holding the greatest show on turf to 11 points was one of the best defensive efforts ever in the playoffs. I think they were racking up offensive records all year, until that game. The touchdown they did score was a bit flukie.
I guess Mr. Dungy did know a little about football.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:18 pm
@Eric
Here is the thing folks forget about that game too. While Mike Shula would never be mistaken for Mike Martz, he finally had our offense playing relatively well. Honestly he pulled off somewhat of a miracle because we went through 3 qbs that year too. But then after we lost the Glazers wanted Coach Dungy to fire the whole offensive staff. It was the craziest thing I think I have ever seen in my whole career because the coaches had just gotten to Hawaii to coach the Pro Bowl. So Tony took a stand and the Glazers said at the least he had to fire Shula. As much as folks hated Shula, the next two guys at OC were a lot worse though and that ultimately became the beginning of the end for Tony down here. Even to this day he will say he made a mistake in allowing that to go down. Some of the offensive assistants probably should have been let go but I really believe that had Shula stayed at OC we would have been contending for a title again the next year. Just my opinion of course.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
@ Steve
I think you are batting 0-for-today man.
Shula was b-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d.
He was Mr. Vanilla.
And Shula didn’t pull off a miracle, the defense pulled off the miracle despite Shula’s lackluster offense. (i don’t think Shaun King replacing Dilfer was the wisest of moves either the next season)
But it was the defense. That defense you started on was unbelievable… I will never forget Hardy Nickerson trying to pump everyone up on the sidelines in the closing minutes… we almost had a Super Bowl appearance… thanks to the defense, thanks to you and the rest of the guys.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:48 pm
I think we have identified a problem. When the Glazers get involved bad things can happen………………………like in the case of Shula, I recall everyone(meaning fans) were complaining about him and his “conservative” play calling. Then they sack the guy over Dungy’s objection. Perhaps a parallel as to the recent decisions as to who should coach the team? Bowing to fan complaints in replacing JG? Thats what they said in the paper anyhow…………….
February 15th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
@Eric
But then wouldn’t firing Dungy and bringing in Gruden also fall into that category? That one seemed to work out at least in the short term. Just sayin.
February 15th, 2010 at 9:28 pm
True enough, particularly giving up two number one and two number two draft choices, which I think contributed mightily to the decline everybody blamed Gruden for. Almost any team is going to lose ground in this league if you lose that many high draft choices. But, the Glazers wanted their Super Bowl, got it, then wondered why the team didn’t maintain a high level of excellence with limited draft choices. The irony is now they fired the guy, because he failed to “build through the draft”. which is now their “plan”. Next they will fire Morris because he didnt get experienced free agents. These folks are all over the lot, and never seem to look in the mirror for problems THEY have caused.
February 15th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
Hey Joe I think we have a new most responses thread… 🙂
February 15th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
Steve,
My problem with this blog entry is that it is really a pollyanna look at the team. Lets face it the 2009 season was a wash – it was terrible for so many reasons that I really don’t want to rehash them. Saying that the Bucs only narrowly lost a few doesn’t ease the pain and it doesn’t improve their current situation.
I mean why not say this instead:
The future looks bright for the 2010 Bucs because it seems that the Bucs were the only team in the NFC South to stop the Super Bowl Champion Saints, in their house nontheless! If the 2010 season begins with the Bucs playing like they did that December day in the Superdome the upcoming season looks bright!
We both know that would be full of crap.
Right now the Bucs need to be realistic and find out:
1. What free agents on the team are the Bucs going to resign
2. What free agents are the Bucs going to persue before the draft
3. What “needs” do the Bucs feel they will address in the draft; and I’m not talking about Round 1 but Rounds 4-7.
I’ll get off my soapbox now….
February 15th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
I truly have to shake my head at this argument. Wow. Like another poster said, Gruden lost 4 games by 4 or less last season. Let’s take a look at the ’86 Bucs shall we. They lost 4 games by 7 or less. Damn it. We should have kept Leeman Bennett!!!
Morris was in over his head. Most experts agree on that. The guy made errors that prevented the Bucs from winning more games. Let’s stop sugar coating this. What about the other losses? They were all by double digits.
I personally didn’t expect the Bucs to contend last season. I did expect them to win about 6 games. They didn’t come close to that. Morris blew the hire of both coordinators. The team look lost in many games. Heck they even messed up simple things like what personnel is supposed to be in the game. The Bucs didn’t want to lose Morris, so they promoted him to head coach a few years too early. Read comments by Mark D and the Glazers. Even they said this was a “learning” experience for Morris. Translation-Morris was in over his head this season.
February 15th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Pollyannaish is an understatement for this crowd.
February 15th, 2010 at 10:19 pm
I think it is fitting that this thread has grown this many responses deep… especially considering Warren Sapp’s article above that has a whopping 2!!! LMAO.
Looks like the great Steve White has more pull than ole Warren Sapp these days… and for good reason.
I couldn’t even imagine Warren even trying to engage the fans… well, maybe I could, he’d probably start talking about how great he was and how nobody else can top his career performance in sacks.
One time when I went to see the Buc’s training camp, the team was sprawled out on the field stretching before practice. Stadium was packed in Orlando, and Warren could be heard throughout all of the land, just yapping away. The crowd was quiet, listening to what he had to say. He was an intimidating guy for sure. But it was overkill. Warren was absolutely a great football player… but I doubt he was and has always been over the top and outrageous just to get a reaction.
And now, look, he has fallen off his pedastal. But with him, not too many people are sad, or care. As is the case here today. People would rather argue or agree with Steve White… and really have not a thing to say about Warren the Great.
February 15th, 2010 at 10:34 pm
Five dumbest moves in Bucs History
5. Trading Steve Young for second round pick
4. Trading number one pick in draft for “Throwin Samoan” Jack Thompson
3. Using number one Pick in draft on Bo Jackson
2. Allowing Doug Williams to join Oklahoma Outlaws
1. Hiring the “Dream”…………..
February 15th, 2010 at 10:36 pm
@MrLucky
I can appreciate that you didn’t like the way I wrote a post on my own blog. So I have an idea for you. Maybe YOU can write a post on YOUR blog about the Bucs. I mean it doesn’t take much and its free. Just set you up a blogpost account which takes like 5 minutes and then have at it hoss.
As for me I’ll continue writing on my blog the way I want to though. Some folks will like it, some folks won’t. It is what it is.
February 16th, 2010 at 5:26 am
EVERYONE COMPARING MORRIS TO GRUDEN NEEDS TO PIPE DOWN AT THIS POINT….BECASUE MORRIS IS YET TO DEVELOP HIS OWN STYLE, COME INTO HIS OWN, SORT OF COME OUT OF HIS SHELL…HE WAS IN OVER HIS HEAD AND WAS THROWN TO THE WOLVES IN A SENSE LAST YEAR….YOU WILL SEE RAHEEM DEVELOP HIMSELF THIS YEAR….WATCH WHAT HE SAYS IN PRESS CONFERENCES, ETC….HE WAS A ROOKIE LAST YEAR AS WELL, AND MADE MANY ROOKIE BLUNDERS…HE NEEDS TO COME INTO HIS OWN THIS YEAR….STAND UP RAHEEM AND BE A HEAD FRIGGIN COACH…AS FOR GRUDEN HE IS DEEPLY ETCHED IN HIS EGOTISTICAL, NEOPOLEANIC, DOMINANT, LYING STYLE AND THATS GRUDEN….BUT HE ALREADY IS WHO HE IS…AND IS A VERY GOOD COACH TO BOOT….IN A SENSE RAHEEM WASNT YET THE MAN HE NEEDS TO BE IN ALL DUE RESPECT TO RAHEEM…ADAM FROM NY
February 16th, 2010 at 9:25 am
Mr. White, No sourcve but the rosters from year 2001 and 2002 show these players were new to Bucs.
Well let’s see on offense there was Pittman, Jurvious, McCardell, Dilger, Dudley, Charles Lee, Travis Stephens, Battaglia, R. Johnson, D. Barnes, Goodspeed, Cornell Green, Kerry Jenkins, R. Oben, M. Walker, Lomas Brown, and Ryan Benjamin & Tom Tupa(well special teams).
And on defense was Ryan Nece, Jermaine Phillips, J. Golden, R. Warner, T. Wansley, Greg Spires, Corey Smith, D. Claybrooks, and Buck Gurley.
As for how many snaps they took, well gee, hard to know exact counts, but I can say looking at the list they all had apart(except Marquise Walker).
February 16th, 2010 at 10:54 am
Yea, I think the Bucs are going to do surprisingly well this season. I just have a hunch. I thought our D line was much better than they got credit for and if Ruud and Sabby get better this could be a 18 point defense. If they draft Berry, I think they could get that down to 16 points.
Raheem coaching the defense was the difference in my eyes. His inexperience showed all season but Raheem did a Damn good job of correcting his mistakes. I think now that the Rookie jitters have worn off, you will see a team on the rise.
Call me an idiot, and this team has several players that are Dead Weight, but I see that changing in the off season, and Dominic will make some good moves in the Draft. I don’t know if D & R are a Superbowl Staff, but I think they are winners. I see 9 teams on the list that the Bucs can beat in 2010′.
February 16th, 2010 at 10:57 am
Dear Steve,
I don’t begrudge or bemoan you writing this article – it is a free country after all. In fact I personally believe that the article was a BRILLIANT marketing idea – creating controversy in order to engage people. Remember if it bleeds it leads…
What I find amazing/amusing is that this is the first post of yours that I found to be biased towards a pollyanna POV.
One of the reasons that you are such a popular contributor to JBF.com is you ability to weed thru the “feelings” and populist views. Your posts are fair and balanced. In addition your unique insight provides fans, such as myself and others, hidden gems which we were unaware of.
This post just didn’t fit that mold.
Was it wishful thinking…a publicity post…taking a stand in favor of Rah-Rah…positioning yourself in the good graces over at One Buc place for eventual employement?
I don’t know…don’t need to know…I found it interesting – as did many other JBF.com readers.
February 16th, 2010 at 11:05 am
@BigMac,
I think it is way too early for ANY projections about the 2010 season. When you look at the schedule and see many potential wins don’t you think that other teams look at the Bucs on THEIR schedule and feel the same way?
As the Bucs team currently exists there are way too many question marks to make me confident. The injury to Geno Hayes will be a major blow to the LB corps.
Heck will the Bucs come to terms with Barrett Ruud?
Don’t forget about Jimmy Wilkerson’s injury as well? Just when he was coming on at the end of the season BAM!
Will Rhonde Barber be back in 2010 & if not who will replace him?
Unlike most fans I LONG for the return of Dungy Ball. yeah those 13-10 games were BORING but darn were they exciting to the last few minutes. I LONG to see a game of field position where punters and field goal kickers are actually an important and intergral part of the game.
Most importantly to the 2010 Bucs will be this question:
Will the Glazers step up to the plate and allow Dominik and Rah-Rah to get the players they need?
While most fans will be worrying about the WR corps I really want to see a return to a smash-mouth football game where the back get the ball 30 carries a game. yeah there will be a lot of 3 and out but once or twice I expect a Derrick Ward/Ernest Graham to break a 30+ run.
While I’m NOT a Rah-Rah fan I’ll give him a pass until the draft at least.
February 16th, 2010 at 11:45 am
@MrLucky
Funny thing is, as much as folks have bitched and moaned about my post, you know the one thing they haven’t said? That it wasn’t factually incorrect. And by factually incorrect I mean both in the point spread in those 4 losses AND the fact that nobody else had brought it up. Again, nothing about this post was special, if you scrub away all the bullshit its pretty straight forward. I said the season was abysmal because it was. I pointed out facts. I also said you won’t hear it because too many people are still pushing the “in over his head” angle. I can’t even address the stupid ass pollyanna meme because of how heavily caveated my post was to begin with. You would think that I said but for a few plays we would have had the bestest season ever in Bucs history, except that I said pretty much the exact opposite.
Now I am can’t teach folks reading comprehension, thats something they have to take up for themselves. And no matter what I write or say folks will ascribe motives and feelings for it that just aren’t there. Mostly because since they disagree they have to come up with SOME reason why I wrote what I wrote because surely THEY can’t be wrong.
Its all in the game. Again, Im going to keep doing me regardless.
February 16th, 2010 at 11:48 am
@MrLucky
One more thing, just for shits and giggles go back and look at the comments section of my post here at joebucsfan when I said the Bucs D Line would dominate the Packers O Line before we played that game. Quite a few guys thought that post was pollyanish then too, and or thought I was sucking up to the Bucs……right up until our defensive line DID in fact dominate the Packers O Line.
It is what it is.
February 16th, 2010 at 11:50 am
@sgw94
No sources but the rosters from year 2001 and 2002 show these players were new to Bucs.
Well let’s see on offense there was Pittman, Jurvious, McCardell, Dilger, Dudley, Charles Lee, Travis Stephens, Battaglia, R. Johnson, D. Barnes, Goodspeed, Cornell Green, Kerry Jenkins, R. Oben, Marquise Walker, Lomas Brown, and Ryan Benjamin & Tom Tupa(well special teams).
And on defense was Ryan Nece, Jermaine Phillips, J. Golden, R. Warner, T. Wansley, Greg Spires, Corey Smith, D. Claybrooks, and Buck Gurley.
As for how many snaps they took, well gee, hard to know exact counts, but I can say looking at the list they all had apart(except Marquise Walker).
February 16th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
@OAR
There are a couple guys on there who had been with the Bucs prior just on the practice squad like Ron Warner. I think a few others were on and off the practice squad in 2002 as well. I guess by that metric you could push the 26 number but then you would be talking about quite a bit more than 53 players. You would have to calculate every single player who was on the roster at some point that season. Notice for example that on the roster for the first game of 2002 there is no Golden, Lee, Goodspeed, Claybrooks (who had also been here previously), or Green.
http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/18107/TB_Gamebook.pdf
By my humble calculations there were 15 out of 22 starters on offense and defense (with the caveat that Alstott wasn’t listed as a starter) that were holdovers on opening day and 16 others who were subs plus Martine. Thats 31 out of 53 on opening day. Now let me state again before folks start putting words in my mouth that I agree it was Gruden’s team. Just pointing out that at least initially the turnover wasn’t quite that great.
February 16th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Steve,
As you know there has been a lot of arguments about whose “team” it was that won the Super Bowl. But since you played on the bucs right at the time the big turnaround occurred, who was the person most responsible? Was it Dungy? Kiffin? The system? A group of great players that happened to mesh at the right time? And who was the leader of that defense? Brooks? Sapp? Lynch? all the above? If it was Dungy what was the key factor that allowed him to make it happen?
February 16th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
@Eric
It was all of the above but the biggest piece was Coach Dungy. I have never been around another person with the caliber of football knowledge that he had. He also had a style that inspired both confidence and when needed fear. Monte was the architect of the defense but real talk he has horrible people skills. Coach Dungy was a much better communicator and at crucial times he would interject his wisdom either to the other coaches or to players individually. He also knew how to adapt more than most. We had some big time injuries in several of the seasons that he was here but he always found a way around it. One of the best things he did in my opinion was let his coaches coach. I truly believe every coach that came here with him left better than they arrived. Now for some of the offensive assistants thats not saying much of course but still it is what it is. One of the things people don’t focus on in his stint as head coach of the Colts is the remarkable turnover they would have on defense from year to year yet always be winning more than 10 games. Not only that, just about all of their defensive starters were draft picks of theirs and that stayed true from year to year as well. Try to come up with a free agent they picked up on defense in say the last 5 years off the top of your head. Then try to name another successful team you can say the same thing about. Thats what you call being able to adjust and I don’t know that I value anything more when I evaluate coaches. Anybody can coach well when you have the best team money can buy and everybody stays healthy. Its when you hit a little adversity that to me shows what kind of coach you really are.
February 16th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
@sgw94
I guess I shouldn’t have said Gruden brought in “new players”, literally? All I know is there were that many different players on that SuperBowl roster from the year before, whether they were starters, back-ups, or pre-practice squad players. And of course the roster changes slightly throughout the year(injuries, etc), but any added were “new” to that team also.
February 16th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
@OAR
We aren’t actually disagreeing with each other over much. My thing was that it wasn’t quite as extensive as being more than half the roster which would have really been quite an overhaul. Put it to you this way, there is no way anybody can argue that the majority of players who got substantial playing time were brought in by Gruden. Just going by the defense that argument doesn’t hold up. And having said that, it still doesn’t change the fact that it was his team. he brought in players in significant positions that in several cases were upgrades that contributed mightily to winning the superbowl that year. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
February 16th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Steve, lets look at what you wrote shall we?
“The Bucs were abysmal last year and nobody could deny that, but did you know that they lost 4 games by 7 points or less? In fact did you know that if you added up all the points they lost by in those 4 games you would only come up with 15 points, basically an average of a little over a field goal?
I’m sure you probably wouldn’t because nobody really talks about that. They are too busy trying to convince you that Coach Raheem Morris is “in over his head.”
In your first sentence you stated the Bucs were abysmal then you used the word BUT. That use of the word essentially negates the first statement. The second sentenance further strengthening your unwritten assertation that the loses were closer than one would expect at first glance.
The second paragraph sends up the red herring saying that no one talks about the “closeness” of the losses. In that instance you are correct no one talks about statistics because as your previously mentioned the Bucs 2009 season was abysmal.
The final sentence sentence that Rah-Rah is in over his head is in fact supported by your first initial sentence. So yeah no wonder no one has argued against the “facts” you posted which is essence are:
1. The 2009 Bucs were abysmal
2. Rah-Rah was in over his head.
Case dismissed
February 16th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
@MrLucky
Really? Well guess what, I think our 4-12 season was abysmal too. Does that mean Gruden was in over his head?
The mind reels.
Like I said, you should get your own blog. Seriously. I mean you seem to know what everybody else should be saying.
Or is it like the saying goes, those who can’t, criticize?
February 16th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
@Steve
I can’t believe you woke up today and are STILL coming back for more.
What you said was pointless and her is why:
There were 110 games in the NFL with the point difference of 7 points or less.
Here is the number games per team of non-playoff teams who lost by 7 or less.
Pittsburgh 7
Washington 7
Kansas City 6
San Francisco 6
Buffalo 5
Chicago 5
Houston 5
Jacksonville 4
Miami 4
St. Louis 4
Tampa Bay 4
Cleveland 3
This makes your point pointless. And THAT is why everyone is on your case sir.
And besides, you know darn well that Tampa hasn’t been blown out so many games as they have this past year in a long, long time.
All i am saying is, what you said about the loss margin can be said about almost ALL of the teams in the NFL.
The stat that sticks out is is TB giving up nearly 5 yards per carry and being last in Rush defense… look at the other teams last in rush defense and you will see a direct correlation.
February 16th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
@Steve,
You once again bring up Jon Gruden. Why? I wasn’t at all happy with the end of the 2008 season. In fact I’ll admit that I was one of those fans who was calling for his head – in hindsight I was wrong.
Gruden made some really dumb coaching decisions – the game in the Meadowlands with a rookie QB tossing the ball 40+ times with 30+ mph comes to mind – but I never said that Gruden was in over his head.
My beef with Rah-Rah is this – I think that the Glazers promoted Morris too early. With Monte leaving for Rocky Top and Morris elevated to the DC I would have been content. (except for being upset that the Bucs lost the last 4 in December and missed the playoffs). Yeah I would’ve bitched but…
Morris made lots of rookie mistakes with the team, coaches, press, etc., He may be the greatest player’s coach (from the players statements that I’ve read) but the standard for the Bucs was/is very high.
Morris didn’t live up to that standard in his first year. I for one was very vocal for his replacement mainly for one reason – you don’t replace a HC with an inferior model; which is what I feel the Glazer did.
Will Rah-Rah become the next Tony Dungy? I don’t know. He showed improvement at the end of the season and the Bucs record indicated such. I don’t really know what all the disagreement is about.
We both agree last year was abysmal.
Next year – I’m undecided until I see the batch of FA signings, draft choices and healthy players showing up to training camp. I have an open mind and will criticize what I see as wrong and give praise when I see the team doing something right.
February 17th, 2010 at 9:49 am
sgw94, While I enjoyed your article & insight earlier in the year, Like others above, After reading some of you posts above, I really think that you are trying to put a positive spin on a negative. The 1st thing I disagree with the you on is the convoluted thinking on the scores we lost by. I’ll just make my point and go;
1) This is Professional Football. Whether you lose by 1 point, or 40 points, a loss is a loss.
2) While I agree that Jon Gruden had an attitude that sucked, he did come in here and win us a Superbowl. It was “his” team that won it, and that is that. For those that put the “Dungy’s team” argument up, if that is true then why couldn’t Dungy even get us to the Superbowl, much less win it?
Or, how about this; Gruden came in here and did what Dungy couldn’t do with “his” team, win in Philly, and win the Superbowl!
3) After the Superbowl, Gruden did have to bring in problem players & older players for a few years. Why? Did anyone ever think it may have been because the tight-ass Glazers would not spend any money?
4) You can try all you want, but you cannot make anyone with eyes or a brain believe that Morris is not in over his head. Or that the Glazer Boys are not trying to squeeze every penny they can out of us to pay for their “other” interests.
5) I do agree that last year was abysmal. I also believe that some of the young players were not coached to their potential. And I believe that there were “horrible” decisions made by the Rookie HC. Too many to list. And I don’t see any improvement this year, unless Bisaccia can help!